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Zeylon Rho
not in a corporation
1
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Posted - 2013.04.02 12:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
You know... if these are equipment items, and weapons "decloak" you, then perhaps melee (as opposed to Nova/Shotgun) will be the way to go. You can already slot melee damage upgrades and use SP to upgrade hand-to-hand damage. You can do a melee strike regardless of what you're holding I believe. So, keep the cloak in your hands if you have to actively use it, slot some melee upgrades, run up, *thwack*. |
Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2013.04.02 12:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
isnt melee actually hitting them with the gun since thats whats in your hand at the time? so ur going to hit them with the cloak? fail! |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
180
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:00:00 -
[63] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:Kushmir Nadian wrote:The more I consider it, the more this piece of equip/gear worries me. I have my fingers crossed CCP limits it with game balance as the priority. I'd like to see...
A) It be an active module with a time limit/cool-down B) It require active manipulation like a weapon/the active scanner. If you switch to a weapon, the cloak dissipates. C) Max effectiveness that requires zero movement, be nice to see a "shimmer" or predator effect when guys are moving.
I've never played a game with a cloak so feedback from those who have is welcome, the devs have a good track record with not making equip unbalanced, but the cloak seems like it can be a balance nightmare. I'd be shocked if it didn't have a timer and wasn't a mod that could we can put SP into to make last longer. Cloak works wonderfully in KZ3 - hope Dust can pull it off as well.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No
It was terrible
Sniper with a cloak could stay cloaked if he used a silenced weapon, he could kill cloaked
I did it with the silenced pistol all the time, even better if you found a silenced AR |
CAELAN Andoril
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
I've only played one game that had a cloak: Gotham City Impostors. Some people bitched and moaned about it, but I found it reasonably balanced for that game.
You could move as fast as your body type allowed while cloaked, but you constantly made sound and had a predator-style visual effect active at all times. They had the cloak last indefinitely, but honestly I doubt anyone would actually live that long cloaked unless they found an amazing hiding place. Also, they had it that you couldn't even hold your weapon cloaked, nor melee cloaked, and once uncloaked you had to switch to your weapon as if you had something else out all along. And as the game was fairly similar to CoD, they had perks, so one had to utilise certain perks to make themselves truly invisible because GCI also implemented two kinds of tracking equipment: a set of goggles that allowed the player to mark enemies and highlight them to the rest of their team, and a motion tracker that marked any enemy movement in a certain radius.
In the end, however, many people cried out about how the cloak was OP, which led someone to say one of my favourite phrases summing up that entire game: "Situational awareness is OP". |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2345
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:You know... if these are equipment items, and weapons "decloak" you, then perhaps melee (as opposed to Nova/Shotgun) will be the way to go. You can already slot melee damage upgrades and use SP to upgrade hand-to-hand damage. You can do a melee strike regardless of what you're holding I believe. So, keep the cloak in your hands if you have to actively use it, slot some melee upgrades, run up, *thwack*. There are certain equipment items which don't have melee.
Cloak is equipment.
It's possible that Cloak will be melee-disabled like some other equipment is. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.04.02 14:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cloak distortion, or "Shimmer" as some may call it, is the worst thing that has happened to cloaks in the history of FPS gaming; it encourages its use for sniping and camping and not much else. Woe be to anyone who dares move! You see, the truth is: anything less than perfect invisibility actually stands out like a sore thumb.
The best way to balance cloaks (IMO) is with a very recognizable sound when cloaking and uncloaking, and a power mechanic for how long you can reliably use it (e.g. your basic cloak drains and restores x and y capacitor respectively while on or off), with power use amplified by movement. Taking damage, albeit only while cloaked, should drain power. Cloaks should require an amount of power to activate (a minimum threshold). Attacking should drain all remaining power and uncloak the user if cloaked.
For variants: Covert ops cloaks might be efficient enough to let the capacitor regenerate while cloaked as long as you're stationary. Maybe have a restock-able single use cloak variant (militia would be a variant of this). You might also not be able to move as fast while cloaked (unless you're using a Covert Ops suit?), so there could be a variant for that too. Cloaks that drain more power but also decrease your profile slightly. The list goes on...
Skills should affect power capacity, recharge, movement speed, and maybe even the volume of the sound made upon cloaking.
Finally, cloaks are very CPU hungry things which require fitting sacrifices. Forget complex damage mods, you're sacrificing damage output for the element of surprise (a good crutch for Nova Knives and Shotguns for example).
If a lot of what I'm typing seems familiar, it's because a lot of it is similar to how TF2 handles cloaking; TF2 does cloaking extremely well.
This is, of course, only my opinion. But I think there's enough evidence out there to prove that while "predator cloaks look awesome", but "awesome" does not make for balanced game play. I've probably missed a few points too.
Thoughts?
TL;DR/bottom line: Cloak distortion is a terrible mechanic by lazy game designers!
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Zekain Kade
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1138
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Posted - 2013.04.02 14:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
How's about cloak like halo 4's? It has a timer, and if you are near the person using it, it'll screw with your mini map to show you that there is a stalker nearby.
It would.t show the persons exact location. Itll create a cluster of fals red dots in the area around the cloaker. |
Kushmir Nadian
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
104
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Posted - 2013.04.02 15:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:Cloak distortion, or " Shimmer" as some may call it, is the worst thing that has happened to cloaks in the history of FPS gaming; it encourages its use for sniping and camping and not much else. Woe be to anyone who dares move! You see, the truth is: anything less than perfect invisibility actually stands out like a sore thumb. The best way to balance cloaks (IMO) is with a very recognizable sound when cloaking and uncloaking, and a power mechanic for how long you can reliably use it (e.g. your basic cloak drains and restores x and y capacitor respectively while on or off), with power use amplified by movement. Taking damage, albeit only while cloaked, should drain power. Cloaks should require an amount of power to activate (a minimum threshold). Attacking should drain all remaining power and uncloak the user if cloaked. For variants: Covert ops cloaks might be efficient enough to let the capacitor regenerate while cloaked as long as you're stationary. Maybe have a restock-able single use cloak variant (militia would be a variant of this). You might also not be able to move as fast while cloaked (unless you're using a Covert Ops suit?), so there could be a variant for that too. Cloaks that drain more power but also decrease your profile slightly. The list goes on... Skills should affect power capacity, recharge, movement speed, and maybe even the volume of the sound made upon cloaking. Finally, cloaks are very CPU hungry things which require fitting sacrifices. Forget complex damage mods, you're sacrificing damage output for the element of surprise (a good crutch for Nova Knives and Shotguns for example). If a lot of what I'm typing seems familiar, it's because a lot of it is similar to how TF2 handles cloaking; TF2 does cloaking extremely well. This is, of course, only my opinion. But I think there's enough evidence out there to prove that while "predator cloaks look awesome", "awesome" does not make for balanced game play. I've probably missed a few points too. Thoughts? TL;DR/bottom line: Cloak distortion is a terrible mechanic by lazy game designers!
I actually like cloak distortion. As long as it harder to see the distortion the further away its fine.
But both CPU hogging and recognizable sounds upon cloaking/uncloaking are great ideas. Will add those to the original post. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
Kushmir Nadian wrote:I actually like cloak distortion. As long as it harder to see the distortion the further away its fine. I agree that it looks nice. But that's about as far as it goes for me. My beef with it lies from the fact that movement distortion encourages camping. The logic goes something like this: - My cloak distorts when I move. - Distortion makes me visible. - I do not want to be seen. - Therefore I will not move.
It has been suggested before that an inverse system - as long as you're moving and the module is on, you're invisible - could work, and I'd tend to agree though it makes about as little sense as HMG accuracy.
TBH it seems like a lot of things could be solved through variants.
e: Essentially, if you're not moving, you're not doing your job right. Even as a sniper. |
Kushmir Nadian
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
104
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 16:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:Kushmir Nadian wrote:I actually like cloak distortion. As long as it harder to see the distortion the further away its fine. I agree that it looks nice. But that's about as far as it goes for me. My beef with it lies from the fact that movement distortion encourages camping. The logic goes something like this: - My cloak distorts when I move. - Distortion makes me visible. - I do not want to be seen. - Therefore I will not move. It has been suggested before that an inverse system - as long as you're moving and the module is on, you're invisible - could work, and I'd tend to agree though it makes about as little sense as HMG accuracy. TBH it seems like a lot of things could be solved through variants. e: Essentially, if you're not moving, you're not doing your job right. Even as a sniper.
My argument would be "camping isn't strategy" while snipers are a serious threat in Dust, an opponent who doesn't move isn't nearly as dangerous as one who does. Movement is necessary in FPS, most elite players are always moving.
If a guy wants to sit in one place camping with a cloak praying the guy he's behind doesn't hear it? FINE. I'll take guys who are advancing, taking ground and flanking over that every day of the week and TWICE on sunday. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
776
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Posted - 2013.04.02 16:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46129&p=3
This has some points already worked out ^
Maybe give it a read |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kushmir Nadian wrote:I'll take guys who are advancing, taking ground and flanking over that every day of the week and TWICE on sunday.
This is exactly why I dislike regular distortion cloaks, and why I'm so opposed to things that encourage sitting still for extended periods of time. Those guys advancing, taking ground and flanking aren't going to use a cloak if it doesn't help them do what they need to do; being able to move unseen across open terrain is the wet dream of any soldier.
The RDVs are completely invisible until they deploy their payload, so obviously we have the level of tech to provide highly mobile units with perfect cloaking.
Ships in EVE are completely invisible while cloaked; and not only that but it also hides you from directional scans, probes, and lasts indefinitely as long as you don't get too close to anything.
Cloaks in Dust should by extension at least provide complete visual cloaking. |
Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Geez.. a lot of hate for cloaks. Even tho its not going to stop a good sniper from tagging you. Snipers don't move. Not after the first two shots at least. But thing is (again shows who's played a lot of FPS) like in KZ snipers, cloaked or not, are not hard to find. geez.. I'll give you a hint. They are not in the middle of map.
Me, I don't mind cloaks. Balancing? If a whole squad cloaked can win an ambush match, then don't blame the cloaks. Re-evaluate your team. |
Solarisjock
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think Cloaks should work very similar to EVE. Proximity drops it, and a lock on timer. I think if you get within 20-25m of someone, it automatically drops cloak (maybe40- 50m for vehicle cloaks) and when it does your HUD goes to static because of "insert correct lore themed reason here" so you cannot see your cross hairs/sights/ammo etc for 5 seconds. have the main skill lower the CPU/PG cost, with two supplemental skills, one for proximity, and another for HUD Fuzz. Tech/Meta level stuff will increase or decrease the default proximity and fuzz timers. Issue with this is no aim weapons like mass driver and shotgun are still highly exploitable. |
Schalac 17
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
6
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
Solarisjock wrote:I think Cloaks should work very similar to EVE. Proximity drops it, and a lock on timer. I think if you get within 20-25m of someone, it automatically drops cloak (maybe40- 50m for vehicle cloaks) and when it does your HUD goes to static because of "insert correct lore themed reason here" so you cannot see your cross hairs/sights/ammo etc for 5 seconds. have the main skill lower the CPU/PG cost, with two supplemental skills, one for proximity, and another for HUD Fuzz. Tech/Meta level stuff will increase or decrease the default proximity and fuzz timers. Issue with this is no aim weapons like mass driver and shotgun are still highly exploitable. So cloaking would remove the ability for you to put the gun on your shoulder? Also, no hud is easily exploited with a dry erase marker. |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:50:00 -
[76] - Quote
Surt gods end wrote:Geez.. a lot of hate for cloaks. Even tho its not going to stop a good sniper from tagging you. Snipers don't move. Not after the first two shots at least. But thing is (again shows who's played a lot of FPS) like in KZ snipers, cloaked or not, are not hard to find. geez.. I'll give you a hint. They are not in the middle of map.
Me, I don't mind cloaks. Balancing? If a whole squad cloaked can win an ambush match, then don't blame the cloaks. Re-evaluate your team.
or evaluate ur game smarty. thankfully ur not a ccp game designer. any idiot can see this game has several weapons and large maps that would make the wrong kind of cloak an exploit. |
Den-baron Tredje
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
0
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Posted - 2013.04.02 21:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Also, cloaks in EVE have penalties for use; you can only fit one per ship (otherwise none work), can't target for X-seconds after deactivating, can't activate modules while the cloak is in use, movement penalty is decreased by a lot (except for covert-ops mods on ships that can fit them), if anything comes within 2,000m the cloak auto-deactivates, and there is a reactivation delay. Covert-Ops (and the like) ships reduce or eliminate some of these penalties (so, yes, I bet there will be covert-ops dropsuits eventually). So, I do think the Dust cloaks are going to be similar to EVE cloaks, with slight differences for the gameplay.
EDIT: Forgot positives to cloaking in EVE...you can't be seen, targeted or scanned-down.
I also think they'r going to be somewhat like cloaks are in eve. Maybe they can only be fitted to scout suits ( or some black ops suit in the future )
Maybe you wont be able to fire your weapon AT ALL when cloaked. That way the sniper lining up his shoot won't be OP as he has to fiddle to his module screen, turn off the cloak and then will be able to fire. Same deal for the corner camper. To rule out the guys who sneak up on someone with an active cloak as OP, maybe you ( as in eve ) get some kind of attacking delay. FX an assault dude can't uncloak and unleash his gek into the back head of someone but he has to look at the other guys bumm for a bit. This way the specific suits can have individual attack delays so that heavy has a lot, assault less, and scout little ( B-OPS suit none ?? ) |
Kushmir Nadian
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 22:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
So...cloak confirmed for Uprising. Sure hope its balanced by making it have a time limit, rendering the user fully invisible only when he's still, making it a device you need to hold like the scanner and giving a distinctive sound when the user cloaks/uncloaks.
We'll see on May 6th... |
Orin the Freak
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
424
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Posted - 2013.04.25 22:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kushmir Nadian wrote:So...cloak confirmed for Uprising. Sure hope its balanced by making it have a time limit, rendering the user fully invisible only when he's still, making it a device you need to hold like the scanner and giving a distinctive sound when the user cloaks/uncloaks.
We'll see on May 6th...
what are you talking about confirmed for uprising? the only "cloak" I saw was spawn protection. There was no mention of any modules or anything that involved cloak.
Though, my question to CCP is how do you explain a suit that spawns cloaked, yet has no cloaking module. Some sort of "materializing cloak" no doubt. *shrug*
but it was not an "active" cloak they were using. If it were, they'd have put it on their list of included features. I mean, thats kinda a thing. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2604
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 22:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kushmir Nadian wrote:So...cloak confirmed for Uprising. Sure hope its balanced by making it have a time limit, rendering the user fully invisible only when he's still, making it a device you need to hold like the scanner and giving a distinctive sound when the user cloaks/uncloaks.
We'll see on May 6th... Cloak confirmed as a spawn protection and not something available to equip and use.
Cloak confirmed recently to NOT be coming on release of Uprising.
We won't see on May 6th, we'll see when cloaking is ACTUALLY released. |
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