DUST Search - Let's discuss The Cloak...

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already.

Doesn't mean they will be tech-II (which all the stealth ships are) right away...

I think it means they have less signature radius and are harder to detect and target (kinda like frigates in EVE).

Signature profile is confirmed to be a function of frame size in DUST. Scouts are the only Small Frame suit we have at the moment, and have a VERY small Profile advantage compared with both current Medium Frame suits. If that's a "reduced" profile for their size, then something is very wrong, because that means other Small Frame suits will have a higher Profile than the Scout, which means they have to fit between 45 and 50, which is not only a tight margin with no clean numbers, but also too small a margin to make Small Frames worthwhile.

Also, Scouts already have PG/CPU shortage compared with other suits, so NOT giving them some kind of fitting discount would make other suits more viable to cloak with. While I'm not entirely averse to the idea of a Logi cloaker with a Shotgun, I'm a little worried if that's going to be a better option than a cloaked Scout.

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Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:14:00 - [1] - Quote The more I consider it, the more this piece of equip/gear worries me. I have my fingers crossed CCP limits it with game balance as the priority. I'd like to see... A) It be an active module with a time limit/cool-down B) It require active manipulation like a weapon/the active scanner. If you switch to a weapon, the cloak dissipates. C) Max effectiveness that requires zero movement, be nice to see a "shimmer" or predator effect when guys are moving. I've never played a game with a cloak so feedback from those who have is welcome, the devs have a good track record with not making equip unbalanced, but the cloak seems like it can be a balance nightmare.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1913	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:16:00 - [2] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: The more I consider it, the more this piece of equip/gear worries me. I have my fingers crossed CCP limits it with game balance as the priority. I'd like to see... A) It be an active module with a time limit/cool-down B) It require active manipulation like a weapon/the active scanner. If you switch to a weapon, the cloak dissipates. C) Max effectiveness that requires zero movement, be nice to see a "shimmer" or predator effect when guys are moving. I've never played a game with a cloak so feedback from those who have is welcome, the devs have a good track record with not making equip unbalanced, but the cloak seems like it can be a balance nightmare. I'd be shocked if it didn't have a timer and wasn't a mod that could we can put SP into to make last longer. Cloak works wonderfully in KZ3 - hope Dust can pull it off as well.
Logi Bro Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 1019	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:16:00 - [3] - Quote I'm sure that when the cloak is implemented CCP will be so nervous about people crying OP that it will be completely useless, and I am also sure people will still cry OP at it.
Spademan Hydra II-Omega 3	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:18:00 - [4] - Quote Agreed on all points. Also, another point I'd like to bring up, y'know those ships that drop in your vehicles? They've got a cloak, ever notice that loud noise they emit? (I'm sure you have) I personally would like to see that for infantry ones, if somewhat quieter, to "discourage" use in crowded areas.
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:22:00 - [5] - Quote Big difference between people CRYING OP and something actually BEING OP. I'd like to think the more reasonable of us know the difference. Someone hits their cloak, flanks wide and sneaks up on my tank and finishes me off with AV's, I have no issue. That's more than fair. But some sniper lining up a shot while cloaked or a guy camping in a corner cloaked with his finger on R1 waiting for someone to pass by? NO THANKS.
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 134	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:22:00 - [6] - Quote Personally the only advantage it gives are to snipers and corner campers. And 1. A good sniper can't be seen anyway 2. A corner camper is probably going to kill you anyway Because supposedly it shimmers when you move and goes away when you fire. More for hiding than use in active combat
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 134	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:23:00 - [7] - Quote I think me and kush just posted the same thing at the same time ._.
Xender17 Oblivion S.G.X 15	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:24:00 - [8] - Quote Probably predator type thing going on. I would imagine variants like timed, mobility, appearance or attacking disruption. Timed:has no negative effects other then it being timed. Mobility: move slower when active. Appearance: shimmers when you move. Disruption: when you attack or are attacked the the cloak disappears. would be op if nova knives didn't affect cloak?
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1914	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:24:00 - [9] - Quote Cloaks for LAV plz. Black Ops LAV was very miss-leading in the testers tournament.
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:25:00 - [10] - Quote Errrmmm....I'm confused. Sooooo you're saying snipers SHOULD be able to line up a shot while cloaked? A guy SHOULD be able to sit in a corner cloaked with his finger on the trigger?

Protoman Is God Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:26:00 - [11] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Kushmir Nadian wrote: The more I consider it, the more this piece of equip/gear worries me. I have my fingers crossed CCP limits it with game balance as the priority. I'd like to see... A) It be an active module with a time limit/cool-down B) It require active manipulation like a weapon/the active scanner. If you switch to a weapon, the cloak dissipates. C) Max effectiveness that requires zero movement, be nice to see a "shimmer" or predator effect when guys are moving. I've never played a game with a cloak so feedback from those who have is welcome, the devs have a good track record with not making equip unbalanced, but the cloak seems like it can be a balance nightmare. I'd be shocked if it didn't have a timer and wasn't a mod that could we can put SP into to make last longer. Cloak works wonderfully in KZ3 - hope Dust can pull it off as well. KZ3 was terrible in it's own right but the cloak was just broken. KZ2 implemented cloak wonderfully though.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1916	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:30:00 - [12] - Quote Protoman Is God wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Kushmir Nadian wrote: The more I consider it, the more this piece of equip/gear worries me. I have my fingers crossed CCP limits it with game balance as the priority. I'd like to see... A) It be an active module with a time limit/cool-down B) It require active manipulation like a weapon/the active scanner. If you switch to a weapon, the cloak dissipates. C) Max effectiveness that requires zero movement, be nice to see a "shimmer" or predator effect when guys are moving. I've never played a game with a cloak so feedback from those who have is welcome, the devs have a good track record with not making equip unbalanced, but the cloak seems like it can be a balance nightmare. I'd be shocked if it didn't have a timer and wasn't a mod that could we can put SP into to make last longer. Cloak works wonderfully in KZ3 - hope Dust can pull it off as well. KZ3 was terrible in it's own right but the cloak was just broken. KZ2 implemented cloak wonderfully though. I played the HELL out of KZ2 when it first came out. KZ3 had those cool movie scenes - but not the gaming glory. KZ2 is hard to play now though lol
Phoenix Archer 128 Better Hide R Die 154	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:31:00 - [13] - Quote Here's what I've heard about the cloak: It must be activated It is distorted when you move (shimmers or something), and running either disables or causes an even greater shimmer (can't remember) Firing your weapon disables it Countered by Scanning (think Active is better, though Passive too) So, its going to be an equipment or mod that you select to activate, but then can switch to your weapon...actually, more that I think about it it'll be a mod, activated like you do in vehicles, without switching your weapon; if it follows that, they don't need to really tweak anything for a reactivation delay. Pretty much, I just see campers using this; both the sniper on the mountain and the guy hiding behind a corner with a shotgun (and you never see either until they fire at you anyway, so do they really get much of an advantage cloaking?); after all, you are seen unless moving at a terribly slow speed or not moving at all (any distortion in the graphics causes me to turn and see what's going on, I hope others are like that too) and scanning still shows your position (so if you really want to cloak, invest in those dampening skills) Also, cloaks in EVE have penalties for use; you can only fit one per ship (otherwise none work), can't target for X-seconds after deactivating, can't activate modules while the cloak is in use, movement penalty is decreased by a lot (except for covert-ops mods on ships that can fit them), if anything comes within 2,000m the cloak auto-deactivates, and there is a reactivation delay. Covert-Ops (and the like) ships reduce or eliminate some of these penalties (so, yes, I bet there will be covert-ops dropsuits eventually). So, I do think the Dust cloaks are going to be similar to EVE cloaks, with slight differences for the gameplay. EDIT: Forgot positives to cloaking in EVE...you can't be seen, targeted or scanned-down.
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 135	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:32:00 - [14] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: Errrmmm....I'm confused. Sooooo you're saying snipers SHOULD be able to line up a shot while cloaked? A guy SHOULD be able to sit in a corner cloaked with his finger on the trigger? No just how the item was describe thats really the main group that will get the advantage from it, even though both groups wouldn't need the cloak to be annoying
Tolen Rosas Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:34:00 - [15] - Quote Xender17 wrote: Probably predator type thing going on. I would imagine variants like timed, mobility, appearance or attacking disruption. Timed:has no negative effects other then it being timed. Mobility: move slower when active. Appearance: shimmers when you move. Disruption: when you attack or are attacked the the cloak disappears. would be op if nova knives didn't affect cloak? timed would be terrible tbqh. higher tier ones should get more time, less shimmer and a shorter cooldown but like the op stated, switching to a weapon should disrupt the field. will be nova knife 514 if u let scout knifers run around with a 30 second cloak.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2330	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:38:00 - [16] - Quote The devs have confirmed that the cloak will be an Equipment item, not something that goes into a High or Low slot. They've also stated that it won't (at least in the current plan) affect your scan profile, so sensors will still mark you on the minimap - but nobody's given a straight answer on whether you'll get the chevrons over a cloaked target's head. At the moment, the plan is that moving will "disrupt" the cloak and make you more visible/less invisible. Coolodown timer is confirmed, but not duration for either effect or cooldown.
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:40:00 - [17] - Quote Winscar Shinobi wrote: Kushmir Nadian wrote: Errrmmm....I'm confused. Sooooo you're saying snipers SHOULD be able to line up a shot while cloaked? A guy SHOULD be able to sit in a corner cloaked with his finger on the trigger? No just how the item was describe thats really the main group that will get the advantage from it, even though both groups wouldn't need the cloak to be annoying OK gotcha. Yeah i'd just like to see the item be as tactical as possible with low chance for abuse. One look at how snipers more of a "wound" class (which snipers have never stopped whining about, btw) tells us CCP isn't into the cheap kills. I just hope they get this one right too.
DUST Fiend Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 2221	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:42:00 - [18] - Quote Whatever it is, it needs to have high CPU/PG, like unreasonably high. Then, scouts get a nice big % off of the CPU/PG cost to equip. Stealth is supposed to be the scouts realm. That doesn't mean that other suits shouldn't have the option to equip it, but they should suffer for doing so.
Phoenix Archer 128 Better Hide R Die 154	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:43:00 - [19] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: ... tells us CCP isn't into the cheap kills... I'm waiting for webs to come to Dust...when they do, tankers will cry rivers.
Phoenix Archer 128 Better Hide R Die 154	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:44:00 - [20] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Whatever it is, it needs to have high CPU/PG, like unreasonably high. Then, scouts get a nice big % off of the CPU/PG cost to equip. Stealth is supposed to be the scouts realm. That doesn't mean that other suits shouldn't have the option to equip it, but they should suffer for doing so. It may have higher CPU/PG, but it will be for ALL suits...until they add Covert-Ops suits (and there will be one for each type of suit, eventually) which are made for this.

Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:47:00 - [21] - Quote Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Kushmir Nadian wrote: ... tells us CCP isn't into the cheap kills... I'm waiting for webs to come to Dust...when they do, tankers will cry rivers. I can dig it. "run now beeeootch!!" Tank go BOOM.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2331	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:49:00 - [22] - Quote Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Whatever it is, it needs to have high CPU/PG, like unreasonably high. Then, scouts get a nice big % off of the CPU/PG cost to equip. Stealth is supposed to be the scouts realm. That doesn't mean that other suits shouldn't have the option to equip it, but they should suffer for doing so. It may have higher CPU/PG, but it will be for ALL suits...until they add Covert-Ops suits (and there will be one for each type of suit, eventually) which are made for this. Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already.
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:50:00 - [23] - Quote Spademan wrote: Agreed on all points. Also, another point I'd like to bring up, y'know those ships that drop in your vehicles? They've got a cloak, ever notice that loud noise they emit? (I'm sure you have) I personally would like to see that for infantry ones, if somewhat quieter, to "discourage" use in crowded areas. this is good. a light hum would be nice.
Phoenix Archer 128 Better Hide R Die 154	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:52:00 - [24] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Whatever it is, it needs to have high CPU/PG, like unreasonably high. Then, scouts get a nice big % off of the CPU/PG cost to equip. Stealth is supposed to be the scouts realm. That doesn't mean that other suits shouldn't have the option to equip it, but they should suffer for doing so. It may have higher CPU/PG, but it will be for ALL suits...until they add Covert-Ops suits (and there will be one for each type of suit, eventually) which are made for this. Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already. Doesn't mean they will be tech-II (which all the stealth ships are) right away... I think it means they have less signature radius and are harder to detect and target (kinda like frigates in EVE).
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 183	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:54:00 - [25] - Quote discussion: It better save drop ships and be implemented for them in the next build /end
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2332	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:59:00 - [26] - Quote Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already. Doesn't mean they will be tech-II (which all the stealth ships are) right away... I think it means they have less signature radius and are harder to detect and target (kinda like frigates in EVE). Signature profile is confirmed to be a function of frame size in DUST. Scouts are the only Small Frame suit we have at the moment, and have a VERY small Profile advantage compared with both current Medium Frame suits. If that's a "reduced" profile for their size, then something is very wrong, because that means other Small Frame suits will have a higher Profile than the Scout, which means they have to fit between 45 and 50, which is not only a tight margin with no clean numbers, but also too small a margin to make Small Frames worthwhile. Also, Scouts already have PG/CPU shortage compared with other suits, so NOT giving them some kind of fitting discount would make other suits more viable to cloak with. While I'm not entirely averse to the idea of a Logi cloaker with a Shotgun, I'm a little worried if that's going to be a better option than a cloaked Scout.
Phoenix Archer 128 Better Hide R Die 154	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:09:00 - [27] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already. Doesn't mean they will be tech-II (which all the stealth ships are) right away... I think it means they have less signature radius and are harder to detect and target (kinda like frigates in EVE). Signature profile is confirmed to be a function of frame size in DUST. Scouts are the only Small Frame suit we have at the moment, and have a VERY small Profile advantage compared with both current Medium Frame suits. If that's a "reduced" profile for their size, then something is very wrong, because that means other Small Frame suits will have a higher Profile than the Scout, which means they have to fit between 45 and 50, which is not only a tight margin with no clean numbers, but also too small a margin to make Small Frames worthwhile. Also, Scouts already have PG/CPU shortage compared with other suits, so NOT giving them some kind of fitting discount would make other suits more viable to cloak with. While I'm not entirely averse to the idea of a Logi cloaker with a Shotgun, I'm a little worried if that's going to be a better option than a cloaked Scout. In EVE, a Tech-I cloak costs 1 PG and 30 CPU, and fits in a high slot (alongside turrets). Pretty much any ship can fit it with little problems (may have to add a CPU booster if you want to fit all your slots in some frigates, but there's similar problems with other mods as well [I know warp scrambers have about that much CPU cost as well]) The Tech-II variant costs 1 PG and 10,000 CPU (Covert-Ops ships reduce the CPU cost) I don't see it being that much different in Dust. Eventually we'll get Tech-II stuff, and the T2 cloaks will most likely allow movement while cloaked...but will really only be able to be used on a Covert-Ops dropsuit (which will have its own penalties for use)
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 183	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:20:00 - [28] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scout description makes them out to be a Covert Ops role already. Doesn't mean they will be tech-II (which all the stealth ships are) right away... I think it means they have less signature radius and are harder to detect and target (kinda like frigates in EVE). Signature profile is confirmed to be a function of frame size in DUST. Scouts are the only Small Frame suit we have at the moment, and have a VERY small Profile advantage compared with both current Medium Frame suits. If that's a "reduced" profile for their size, then something is very wrong, because that means other Small Frame suits will have a higher Profile than the Scout, which means they have to fit between 45 and 50, which is not only a tight margin with no clean numbers, but also too small a margin to make Small Frames worthwhile. Also, Scouts already have PG/CPU shortage compared with other suits, so NOT giving them some kind of fitting discount would make other suits more viable to cloak with. While I'm not entirely averse to the idea of a Logi cloaker with a Shotgun, I'm a little worried if that's going to be a better option than a cloaked Scout. This is why I think scouts / dropships will have a cloaking ability build into their suits/ships. It's been written about that both would have cloaking, and scouts in game description alludes to this. The dev blog from ...like 3 years ago mentions cloaking as a feature of drop-ships. If either of the two were to require the CPU/PG/Slot occupation of another module it would be a huge wtf. And it makes sense in light of this that it would not be a module which other suits or vehicles could purchase and equip. Cloaked tanks? lol Cloaked heavies...comeon? It won't be a slot item and therefore shouldn't take PG/CPU.
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 183	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:22:00 - [29] - Quote Alternatively it could be a feature "Built in" to scouts and drop-ships with a market slot item available as well. ~See Mobile CRU and tier 3 drop-ships with a build in CRU. (see also huge waste of sp/isk in that case...)
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1879	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:24:00 - [30] - Quote I believe all suits should be able to fit the cloak, but allow specialization scout suits (especially the covert ops variants) to benefit more than the traditional dropsuits.



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