Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.

Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.

Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.

So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think?

It is kind of silly that someone who hasn't dedicated much SP towards grenades can be able to wipe out all shields with just the standard Flux grenades. I recommend letting the higher-tier Flux grenades have that benefit.

Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.

Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.

Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.

So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think?

Not a bad idea in principle, but as a flux user let me offer some important feedback. If the flux grenade was nerfed to do less than full damage to shields, I doubt I would use it. The reason is that the standard grenade becomes better than the flux pretty easily if either the flux damage is reduced or the flux AOE is reduced, simply because the standard grenade works all the time, and still does half the flux damage, albeit with a smaller radius.

While I like the idea of making higher tier flux grenades more worthwhile, I think a flux nerf without a corresponding regular grenade nerf will just serve to remove the flux from the game.

A flux nerf, AND a regular grenade buff will just leave everyone in general more vulnerable to shield-tank assault firing squads in general. For now, things that go boom help keep everything balanced. I hope this isn't even considered past a day or two.

Yes, I'm in basic agreement with this.

Possible solution here. Rather than have a flux grenade be an AoE, have it be a small computer that autotargets the nearest X enemies within Y meters and neutralizes a portion of their shields. Then you could have variants that can handle more targets but within less range, and more range but fewer targets.

EDIT: I just read your thing about tanks, if you added a modifier where scan profile size would increase the effect, it'd be great against tanks.

The thing about scan profile size is a bad idea, that will change next to nothing except making flux grenades useless against infantry and overwhelming vs. HAV.

Fluxes won't work against Scouts? No one would care. They are barely in range, and if they are every weapon kills them near instantly shields up or down anyway.

Fluxes won't work against Heavies? No one would care. Their defense is comprised of armor mostly, and the AR and every other weapon chews through them in time anyway.

Fluxes won't work against Assaults? Serious change. They were the only ones it had a distinct effect against to begin with. (The shield variants anyway.)

Like i said Eve apparently has weapons that nullify shields

I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.

It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.

But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.

At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?

EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?

However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage.

Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack.

Infantry
Scout:: 45 dB
Assault: 50 dB
Logistics: 50 dB
Heavy: 65 dB

Vehicles
All unlisted (unless I missed one when I checked)


Proposal, since the values for vehicles are unlisted set all vehicles to take 100% damage.
Scaling for infantry could work something like this;

F * [(S + 10) / 100] = Damage applied.

Where;
F = total Flux damage
S = signature

Now this is just a first attempt of the top of my head so it may not be optimal/properly balanced at this point but hopefully it conveys the basic concept. Two factors to keep in mind when considering this are A) Who low a mark can a profile reach with fully skill and fittings support, B) will being lit up by an active scanner have any effect on these interactions (I'm assuming "no" but it's good to cover the bases :) ).

Cheers,
Cross

This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades.

But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators.

Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation.
How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in?
An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed.

In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge.

Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check.

if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry.

This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades.

But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators.

By your argument a militia forge should be able to easily kill a proto HAV because it was designed to kill the tank. However we all know that the lower lvl forge guns take many shots before they do significant dmg to the tank. You said 2 nades...why do you use 2 nades all you need it 1 to completely nullify all infantry shields in a large radius.

Also you spend your time defending the flux but you dont even consider the hypothesis I posed where if there was a weapon that would insta destroy all armor at standard level wouldnt that be unbalanced? Why have you note responded.....I believe its probably because you know that weapon to be unbalanced. Even if you argue..... well you have shields dont you if you dont have enough shields and they are taken down easily then you should die to the X nade.....you probably realize how rediculous that sounds. Yet that is the same argument you are using. I am sorry but I dont agree that there should be a weapon that will instantly nullify all shields for infantry just because that weapon was scaled to do shield damage to shield tanks.

Oh and BTW most weapons are designed to hurt shields more than armor. AR 110% against shields, LR 120%, Shotgun (not sure the actual percentage but it was designed to destroy shields just as fast as armor), Forge, Flux, Scrambler. All of these get bonus dmg or do 100% dmg against shields. Yes you state that there needs to be a AOE weapon that if it only slightly touches you will remove up to 1200 shields at standard lvl? I go back to my argument....does a nade that does 1200 armor at standard lvl with a large AOE sound balanced to you?

I could see this being a possible solution as well. Where distance from the nade will determine the extend of dmg the flux does to the shields. Right now the standard have a 6 meter radius i believe where is does full dmg to shields and then none outside of it. If you change it so that is does 1200 dmg to 0-1.5 meters, 900 1.5-2.0 meters, 600 2.0-2.5 meters, 500 2.5 - 3.0 meters, 400 3.0- 3.5 meters, 3.5 - 6.0 meters does 300 shield dmg. This would still keep its effectiveness against vehicles and give a reason for using higher tier flux vs infantry as you would do more dmg to shields in the extreme edge of the flux.

Although I still think flux nades taking sig profile into account would be a better option. Because then people who are shield tanked will take a heavier hit from a flux then someone who is armor tanked. Right now it just doesnt matter. The flux is scaled to do good dmg vs a shield HAV and it also has the benefit of completely stripping all shields from all infantry in a large AOE.

I don't agree with these numbers.

Tanks are actually quick moving in a match, and catching them with direct hits with the center of a flux grenade is quite challenging.
These numbers will render them useless against tanks.

The damage should remain the same at the 6-meter radius. I would however give you an adjustment to proto flux. With expanding it's max radius to 7.5 or 7.8, have it do 300 shield damage at the 7meter mark, and a negligible 100 shield damage at the 7.5-7.8 meter range.

I like Cross' math. I would suggest the "+10" be changed to "+V" where "V" is the variant of Flux Grenade being used.

It'd look like this: F[(S + V)/100]=D
F is the Flux Grenade's base damage
S is the Scan Profile of target
V is a numerical factor based on variant level
D is the applied damage

Some numbers to square it up.

Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=0 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit
300[(50 + 0)/100] = 150 applied damage (draining most MLT shields if no extenders)

Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=5 and we are attacking the same guy
500[(50 + 5)/100] = 275 shield damage

Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=10 and we are attacking the same guy
700[(50 + 10)/100] = 420

So lets tinker with the suit a bit.

Our MLT nade, again, vs. a PRO suit with 4 PRO shield extenders and decent scan profile skills. For the sake of easy arguing, lets just say that the skills and shield extender profile penalty nullify. You'd do the same damage. 150 from, what, 512 shields(66*4 plus 250)? Not real great...might need to play with some numbers.

Our PRO nade does 420 to the same suit. I'd say a PRO Flux should either completely drain all infantry shields or DAMN CLOSE.

SO lets modify the V...

Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=10 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit
300[(50 + 10)/100] = 180 applied damage

Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=20 and we are attacking the same guy
500[(50 + 20)/100] = 350 shield damage

Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=30 and we are attacking the same guy
700[(50 + 30)/100] = 560

There...that may be a little more like it.

Lets say a tank has a profile of...500

700[(500 + 30)/100] = 3710 damage to a HAV. Don't know if that is fair but it looks pretty good to me.

NOW, this whole system comes with a caveat. Cover doesn't apply anymore and Flux' get a AoE buff. That would make them pretty much an EMP for shields. The EM particles effecting shields could and should travel through almost anything.

This would reward skilling Grenades and make the tiers of Flux actually matter, rather than the current system in which the only benefit of higher tiered, more expensive grenades is a marginally expanded AoE.

As a flux user ive already mentioned the overwhelming power flux nades have on infantry. . .
. . .Moreover anyone who knows what they are doing run full squads of flux nades as they double both as a Shield vehicle deterrent and infantry deterrent. While advanced level locus nades seem nice, Often times you can wipe the shields off entire squads and they simply can't even react to it because of the short timer and the ability of flux to damage to wipe full shields off any infantry at just basic levels. . .

. . .Anyone who can't see that as a gameplay balance issue on a team level doesn't fully appreciate the game at the levels outside of 1v1. In a group firefight, nade spam with locus is one things as you can take cover to avoid damage, the same can't be said about flux. . .


TL; DR
Are flux OP, no. Do they need a bit more consideration sure. Now i need to test if enemy flux fry sheild regulators and shield recharger modules. If they don't then an argument can be made that the counter to flux is use of those modules. If they do then that is a different story in terms of balance.

Regardless flux nades should have a different nade indicator based on shape and it should have at least 5s contact timer unless cooked. The damage should be proportional. But still a single flux should be in the vicinity of 40, 60, 80% shield loss(the more you shield tank the more you lose but the proportion stays the same regardless and is effected only by nade level)

ALL infantry based on gear level of nade (std/adv/pro)

Vehicles should stay as is.

I like Cross' math. I would suggest the "+10" be changed to "+V" where "V" is the variant of Flux Grenade being used.

It'd look like this: F[(S + V)/100]=D
F is the Flux Grenade's base damage
S is the Scan Profile of target
V is a numerical factor based on variant level
D is the applied damage

Some numbers to square it up.

Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=0 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit
300[(50 + 0)/100] = 150 applied damage (draining most MLT shields if no extenders)

Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=5 and we are attacking the same guy
500[(50 + 5)/100] = 275 shield damage

Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=10 and we are attacking the same guy
700[(50 + 10)/100] = 420

So lets tinker with the suit a bit.

Our MLT nade, again, vs. a PRO suit with 4 PRO shield extenders and decent scan profile skills. For the sake of easy arguing, lets just say that the skills and shield extender profile penalty nullify. You'd do the same damage. 150 from, what, 512 shields(66*4 plus 250)? Not real great...might need to play with some numbers.

Our PRO nade does 420 to the same suit. I'd say a PRO Flux should either completely drain all infantry shields or DAMN CLOSE.

SO lets modify the V...

Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=10 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit
300[(50 + 10)/100] = 180 applied damage

Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=20 and we are attacking the same guy
500[(50 + 20)/100] = 350 shield damage

Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=30 and we are attacking the same guy
700[(50 + 30)/100] = 560

There...that may be a little more like it.

Lets say a tank has a profile of...500

700[(500 + 30)/100] = 3710 damage to a HAV. Don't know if that is fair but it looks pretty good to me.

NOW, this whole system comes with a caveat. Cover doesn't apply anymore and Flux' get a AoE buff. That would make them pretty much an EMP for shields. The EM particles effecting shields could and should travel through almost anything.

This would reward skilling Grenades and make the tiers of Flux actually matter, rather than the current system in which the only benefit of higher tiered, more expensive grenades is a marginally expanded AoE.

You die when (usually) armor hits 0, not when shields hit 0.

Thats not how it works at all. You have "1 hp" in your actual person that also needs to be depleted before you die, it has nothing to do with your armor reaching 0. How can you try to act like you know what would help make this game balanced when you dont even know the basics of it?

I see flux nades now as our only real hope to combat shield tankers. So in a sense, they are only OP if you shield tank.