DUST Search - Flux Nades

Jathniel wrote:

semperfi1999 wrote:

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.

It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.

But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.

At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?

EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?

However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage.

Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack.

Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation.
How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in?
An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed.

In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge.

Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check.

if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry.


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semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 388	Posted - 2013.03.28 17:20:00 - [1] - Quote Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade. Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry. Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank. So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think?
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 388	Posted - 2013.03.28 17:42:00 - [2] - Quote Glad you approve but I am already taken. Sorry to disappoint you.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 388	Posted - 2013.03.28 20:11:00 - [3] - Quote Jathniel wrote: The thing about scan profile size is a bad idea, that will change next to nothing except making flux grenades useless against infantry and overwhelming vs. HAV. Fluxes won't work against Scouts? No one would care. They are barely in range, and if they are every weapon kills them near instantly shields up or down anyway. Fluxes won't work against Heavies? No one would care. Their defense is comprised of armor mostly, and the AR and every other weapon chews through them in time anyway. Fluxes won't work against Assaults? Serious change. They were the only ones it had a distinct effect against to begin with. (The shield variants anyway.) Actually thats not true at all. Heavies by an large have massive amounts of shields to go with their armor and it nullifies their shields completely. I am not saying that the amount it shield dmg done to an HAV should change that should remain the same. Currently the scale of the dmg is way off. The flux is scaled to do dmg to vehicles but does that same amount of dmg to infantry. So I am only talking about infantry.....and the fact is if the flux even touches you then you lose 100% of your shields no matter what you have upgraded into for infantry. Currently for a measly 46K SP (I think thats lvl 1 nade it might be lower than this) you can completely nullify a proto suit. What this will mean is when we actually have racial varients you will probably see Gallente suits become the norm (since the Gallente are biased towards armor) and they will carry flux nades to completely nullify anyone who runs shields. Like i said Eve apparently has weapons that nullify shields but it is based on the signature profile while it why they are a good weapon but not OP. Right now throw 1 flux nade and everything loses all shields. I enjoy how its pretty apparent by your post that you did not even think about this at all but just responded with a I USE IT DONT NERF WHAT I RELY ON TO GET MY KILLS!! Lets put this a different way. DO you think it would be balanced if I had an AOE weapon where if I removed all the shields from an enemy I could throw it and it would do a full 1200 dmg to all armor in its AOE? Basically if you have lost your shields as a heavy and this is used it would insta kill your 1000 HP heavy suit? Now I am not saying that they should only do 100 dmg to shields or something. Your sig profile gets larger the more shield extenders you use. So someone who is shields tanking would still take a lot harder hit from this than someone who does not shield tank.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 388	Posted - 2013.03.28 21:12:00 - [4] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout. It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit. But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio. At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely? EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)? However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage. Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 389	Posted - 2013.03.28 22:29:00 - [5] - Quote Jathniel wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout. It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit. But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio. At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely? EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)? However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage. Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack. Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation. How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in? An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed. In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge. Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check. if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry. By your argument a militia forge should be able to easily kill a proto HAV because it was designed to kill the tank. However we all know that the lower lvl forge guns take many shots before they do significant dmg to the tank. You said 2 nades...why do you use 2 nades all you need it 1 to completely nullify all infantry shields in a large radius. Also you spend your time defending the flux but you dont even consider the hypothesis I posed where if there was a weapon that would insta destroy all armor at standard level wouldnt that be unbalanced? Why have you note responded.....I believe its probably because you know that weapon to be unbalanced. Even if you argue..... well you have shields dont you if you dont have enough shields and they are taken down easily then you should die to the X nade.....you probably realize how rediculous that sounds. Yet that is the same argument you are using. I am sorry but I dont agree that there should be a weapon that will instantly nullify all shields for infantry just because that weapon was scaled to do shield damage to shield tanks. Oh and BTW most weapons are designed to hurt shields more than armor. AR 110% against shields, LR 120%, Shotgun (not sure the actual percentage but it was designed to destroy shields just as fast as armor), Forge, Flux, Scrambler. All of these get bonus dmg or do 100% dmg against shields. Yes you state that there needs to be a AOE weapon that if it only slightly touches you will remove up to 1200 shields at standard lvl? I go back to my argument....does a nade that does 1200 armor at standard lvl with a large AOE sound balanced to you?
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 389	Posted - 2013.03.28 23:18:00 - [6] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades. But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators. I could see this being a possible solution as well. Where distance from the nade will determine the extend of dmg the flux does to the shields. Right now the standard have a 6 meter radius i believe where is does full dmg to shields and then none outside of it. If you change it so that is does 1200 dmg to 0-1.5 meters, 900 1.5-2.0 meters, 600 2.0-2.5 meters, 500 2.5 - 3.0 meters, 400 3.0- 3.5 meters, 3.5 - 6.0 meters does 300 shield dmg. This would still keep its effectiveness against vehicles and give a reason for using higher tier flux vs infantry as you would do more dmg to shields in the extreme edge of the flux. Although I still think flux nades taking sig profile into account would be a better option. Because then people who are shield tanked will take a heavier hit from a flux then someone who is armor tanked. Right now it just doesnt matter. The flux is scaled to do good dmg vs a shield HAV and it also has the benefit of completely stripping all shields from all infantry in a large AOE.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 394	Posted - 2013.03.29 16:16:00 - [7] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: I like Cross' math. I would suggest the "+10" be changed to "+V" where "V" is the variant of Flux Grenade being used. It'd look like this: F[(S + V)/100]=D F is the Flux Grenade's base damage S is the Scan Profile of target V is a numerical factor based on variant level D is the applied damage Some numbers to square it up. Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=0 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit 300[(50 + 0)/100] = 150 applied damage (draining most MLT shields if no extenders) Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=5 and we are attacking the same guy 500[(50 + 5)/100] = 275 shield damage Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=10 and we are attacking the same guy 700[(50 + 10)/100] = 420 So lets tinker with the suit a bit. Our MLT nade, again, vs. a PRO suit with 4 PRO shield extenders and decent scan profile skills. For the sake of easy arguing, lets just say that the skills and shield extender profile penalty nullify. You'd do the same damage. 150 from, what, 512 shields(66*4 plus 250)? Not real great...might need to play with some numbers. Our PRO nade does 420 to the same suit. I'd say a PRO Flux should either completely drain all infantry shields or DAMN CLOSE. SO lets modify the V... Lets say a MLT/STD has F=300 and V=10 and we are attacking an unmodified Assault suit 300[(50 + 10)/100] = 180 applied damage Now an ADV nade has F=500 and v=20 and we are attacking the same guy 500[(50 + 20)/100] = 350 shield damage Finally, a PRO nade has F=700 and v=30 and we are attacking the same guy 700[(50 + 30)/100] = 560 There...that may be a little more like it. Lets say a tank has a profile of...500 700[(500 + 30)/100] = 3710 damage to a HAV. Don't know if that is fair but it looks pretty good to me. NOW, this whole system comes with a caveat. Cover doesn't apply anymore and Flux' get a AoE buff. That would make them pretty much an EMP for shields. The EM particles effecting shields could and should travel through almost anything. This would reward skilling Grenades and make the tiers of Flux actually matter, rather than the current system in which the only benefit of higher tiered, more expensive grenades is a marginally expanded AoE. I really like this. I think it would work and it still is basing everything on the sig profile while making a significant difference between the std/adv/pro flux nades. I think that the value should have a max applied to it as it would do too much dmg to a shield HAV with your AV numbers. Depending on the sig profile you can have the same numbers they currently have be the max possible dmg. So no matter how high your sig profile is the max dmg that can be done would be 1200 for std, 1500 adv and 1800 pro (i think those numbers are correct). I think the other option of having flux nades require a charge time to be fully effective would be interesting as well but they might lose functionality against shield tanks wherease the option given by thrillhouse is by far more effective and can be balanced by tweaking small numbers if there needs to be any slight changes. BTW I am ok with a proto flux nade wiping out proto shield tankers....the issue was std flux nades easily wiping out all shields no matter your level. Oh and this is why I made this post. Because despite knowing there was an issue and listening to anothers ideas to fix it I was not sure exactly how this should be implemented but I trusted that others would have ideas where I did not.