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semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think? |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
77
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think? Yes. Marry me.
+1 |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't use flux nades nor have I ever been hit by one, but this seems fair I guess. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Glad you approve but I am already taken. Sorry to disappoint you. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1815
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
It is kind of silly that someone who hasn't dedicated much SP towards grenades can be able to wipe out all shields with just the standard Flux grenades. I recommend letting the higher-tier Flux grenades have that benefit. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nope. Sorry OP. At first I thought you were going to only address the bug, but then you start calling it overpowered. Nope. Disagree 100%.
Flux Nades are the ONLY thing that can knock a shield-tank Assault flat on to his ass, especially proto. They can force a firing squad of Assaults to double-back. If an assault flanks me while im sniping, it also gives my SMG a fighting chance to take him down.
No. Just no. They are not overpowered, and are EASILY avoided. The smallest cover will neutralize it's effects even if you're within blast radius. The Flux grenade CAN be used against shield HAVs, but it actually seems less effective than packed AV grenades. (av grenades are the ones that need to be looked at... that homing trick is nonsense.)
Don't even start with it being "overpowered", just because someone can deploy it properly. That profile remedy is not a remedy; it's a nerf. If you are caught naked in the blast yield, your shields are going down. Why should it have reduced effect on you when there's no cover? That makes no sense.
Should a sniper rifle have no sway like an assault rifle? Should a heavy machine gun have the range and accuracy of an assault rifle? Should a Heavy run as fast as an assault? Should a scout tank? Should the AR get nerfed? Should shield extender stacking receive a penalty?
Answer these correctly, and you'll get the answer to your proposal on flux nades. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:It is kind of silly that someone who hasn't dedicated much SP towards grenades can be able to wipe out all shields with just the standard Flux grenades. I recommend letting the higher-tier Flux grenades have that benefit.
Next, we'll call it silly that a militia grenade can kill.
No, Maken don't start supporting this.
The flux grenade serves it's purpose, and there is no free MLT variant. SP is spent to get basic functionality, and that's what it will give. Any improvement past that, namely blast radius, must be acquired with SP. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
219
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think?
Not a bad idea in principle, but as a flux user let me offer some important feedback. If the flux grenade was nerfed to do less than full damage to shields, I doubt I would use it. The reason is that the standard grenade becomes better than the flux pretty easily if either the flux damage is reduced or the flux AOE is reduced, simply because the standard grenade works all the time, and still does half the flux damage, albeit with a smaller radius.
While I like the idea of making higher tier flux grenades more worthwhile, I think a flux nerf without a corresponding regular grenade nerf will just serve to remove the flux from the game. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think? Not a bad idea in principle, but as a flux user let me offer some important feedback. If the flux grenade was nerfed to do less than full damage to shields, I doubt I would use it. The reason is that the standard grenade becomes better than the flux pretty easily if either the flux damage is reduced or the flux AOE is reduced, simply because the standard grenade works all the time, and still does half the flux damage, albeit with a smaller radius. While I like the idea of making higher tier flux grenades more worthwhile, I think a flux nerf without a corresponding regular grenade nerf will just serve to remove the flux from the game.
A flux nerf, AND a regular grenade buff will just leave everyone in general more vulnerable to shield-tank assault firing squads in general. For now, things that go boom help keep everything balanced. I hope this isn't even considered past a day or two. |
C Saunders
Tech Guard
164
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Flux nades are absolutely fine, their supposed to strip people of their shields.
If you don't like flux nades don't rely on shields use armour plates instead. |
|
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
219
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think? Not a bad idea in principle, but as a flux user let me offer some important feedback. If the flux grenade was nerfed to do less than full damage to shields, I doubt I would use it. The reason is that the standard grenade becomes better than the flux pretty easily if either the flux damage is reduced or the flux AOE is reduced, simply because the standard grenade works all the time, and still does half the flux damage, albeit with a smaller radius. While I like the idea of making higher tier flux grenades more worthwhile, I think a flux nerf without a corresponding regular grenade nerf will just serve to remove the flux from the game. A flux nerf, AND a regular grenade buff will just leave everyone in general more vulnerable to shield-tank assault firing squads in general. For now, things that go boom help keep everything balanced. I hope this isn't even considered past a day or two.
Yes, I'm in basic agreement with this.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Jathniel wrote:Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Despite the fact that there needs to be some obvious adjustments due since the flux nades have once again started to kill people due to a bug/glitch I believe there needs to be some other adjustments done to this grenade.
Frankly this grenade is far too powerful against infantry. You will never have to go beyond the standard gear since the standard flux already does far more dmg to shields than any infantry character could ever have. I think this is a pretty serious balance issue. To be able to clear all sheilds from all infantry for a good 7-10 seconds just by throwing a nade with a large AOE seems to be pretty unbalanced. But to be honest despite this issue I did not have any ideas myself on how to balance this grenade as I believe that it does the correct amount of dmg to shields when going up against a tank......so how do you balance something that is balanced against tanks but OP against infantry.
Well to be honest I didnt come up with the idea so I give full credit to Beers who came up with the idea (based on how similar weapons work in Eve). The game should take into account the profile signature of the enemy in its AOE. Since HAVs have the highest signature profile they should take 100% dmg from the flux nade. However LAVs have a lower sig profile so they should take a percentage less dmg from the flux based on that profile difference. This would become even more apparent when taking infantry into account as infantry profiles are ALOT smaller than the tanks or LAVs meaning that the damage against shields for infantry would be significantly lower than the amount of damage it would do against a tank.
So the troll threads that are sure to come aside......what do you guys think? Not a bad idea in principle, but as a flux user let me offer some important feedback. If the flux grenade was nerfed to do less than full damage to shields, I doubt I would use it. The reason is that the standard grenade becomes better than the flux pretty easily if either the flux damage is reduced or the flux AOE is reduced, simply because the standard grenade works all the time, and still does half the flux damage, albeit with a smaller radius. While I like the idea of making higher tier flux grenades more worthwhile, I think a flux nerf without a corresponding regular grenade nerf will just serve to remove the flux from the game. A flux nerf, AND a regular grenade buff will just leave everyone in general more vulnerable to shield-tank assault firing squads in general. For now, things that go boom help keep everything balanced. I hope this isn't even considered past a day or two. Yes, I'm in basic agreement with this. I'm sorry I meant flux grenade nerf and regular grenade nerf. Sorry for the miscommunication. |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
no regular grenade nerf. |
Halador Osiris
Dead Six Initiative Daringly Inserting Large Dangerous Objects
100
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Possible solution here. Rather than have a flux grenade be an AoE, have it be a small computer that autotargets the nearest X enemies within Y meters and neutralizes a portion of their shields. Then you could have variants that can handle more targets but within less range, and more range but fewer targets.
EDIT: I just read your thing about tanks, and my solution fits perfectly with that. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Halador Osiris wrote:Possible solution here. Rather than have a flux grenade be an AoE, have it be a small computer that autotargets the nearest X enemies within Y meters and neutralizes a portion of their shields. Then you could have variants that can handle more targets but within less range, and more range but fewer targets.
EDIT: I just read your thing about tanks, if you added a modifier where scan profile size would increase the effect, it'd be great against tanks.
Possible solution?
A problem actually has to be identified first (other than the occasional flux kill).
Any form of operation other than the current, for flux grenades, is a nerf.
It neutralizes shields. Totally shuts them down, and that's it.
If we're fussing about that now, imagine the tears when EMP strikes are introduced.
It's perfectly OKAY for your shields to get turned off, guys.... wow.... |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
The thing about scan profile size is a bad idea, that will change next to nothing except making flux grenades useless against infantry and overwhelming vs. HAV.
Fluxes won't work against Scouts? No one would care. They are barely in range, and if they are every weapon kills them near instantly shields up or down anyway.
Fluxes won't work against Heavies? No one would care. Their defense is comprised of armor mostly, and the AR and every other weapon chews through them in time anyway.
Fluxes won't work against Assaults? Serious change. They were the only ones it had a distinct effect against to begin with. (The shield variants anyway.) |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:The thing about scan profile size is a bad idea, that will change next to nothing except making flux grenades useless against infantry and overwhelming vs. HAV.
Fluxes won't work against Scouts? No one would care. They are barely in range, and if they are every weapon kills them near instantly shields up or down anyway.
Fluxes won't work against Heavies? No one would care. Their defense is comprised of armor mostly, and the AR and every other weapon chews through them in time anyway.
Fluxes won't work against Assaults? Serious change. They were the only ones it had a distinct effect against to begin with. (The shield variants anyway.)
Actually thats not true at all. Heavies by an large have massive amounts of shields to go with their armor and it nullifies their shields completely. I am not saying that the amount it shield dmg done to an HAV should change that should remain the same. Currently the scale of the dmg is way off. The flux is scaled to do dmg to vehicles but does that same amount of dmg to infantry. So I am only talking about infantry.....and the fact is if the flux even touches you then you lose 100% of your shields no matter what you have upgraded into for infantry. Currently for a measly 46K SP (I think thats lvl 1 nade it might be lower than this) you can completely nullify a proto suit. What this will mean is when we actually have racial varients you will probably see Gallente suits become the norm (since the Gallente are biased towards armor) and they will carry flux nades to completely nullify anyone who runs shields.
Like i said Eve apparently has weapons that nullify shields but it is based on the signature profile while it why they are a good weapon but not OP. Right now throw 1 flux nade and everything loses all shields. I enjoy how its pretty apparent by your post that you did not even think about this at all but just responded with a I USE IT DONT NERF WHAT I RELY ON TO GET MY KILLS!!
Lets put this a different way. DO you think it would be balanced if I had an AOE weapon where if I removed all the shields from an enemy I could throw it and it would do a full 1200 dmg to all armor in its AOE? Basically if you have lost your shields as a heavy and this is used it would insta kill your 1000 HP heavy suit?
Now I am not saying that they should only do 100 dmg to shields or something. Your sig profile gets larger the more shield extenders you use. So someone who is shields tanking would still take a lot harder hit from this than someone who does not shield tank. |
Protoman Is God
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Flux grenades need a larger fuse time. You should have to cook them in the same fashion as a locus grenade. |
Negris Albedo
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Like i said Eve apparently has weapons that nullify shields EVE works differently. There are four damage types: EM, Thermal, Kinetic and Explosive, and four resistances for those damage types. There is no weapon in EVE that only damages shield. Even EM and Thermal damage still damages Armor, though to a lesser extent. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
733
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.
It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.
But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.
At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?
EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)? |
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slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
maybe it should just do less damage the farther you are from the center of the explosion or whatever it does. Only if you were right next to the impact area would your shields be completely depleted. Also you should have to cook them. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.
It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.
But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.
At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?
EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?
However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage.
Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
865
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Infantry Scout:: 45 dB Assault: 50 dB Logistics: 50 dB Heavy: 65 dB
Vehicles All unlisted (unless I missed one when I checked)
Proposal, since the values for vehicles are unlisted set all vehicles to take 100% damage. Scaling for infantry could work something like this;
F * [(S + 10) / 100] = Damage applied.
Where; F = total Flux damage S = signature
Now this is just a first attempt of the top of my head so it may not be optimal/properly balanced at this point but hopefully it conveys the basic concept. Two factors to keep in mind when considering this are A) Who low a mark can a profile reach with fully skill and fittings support, B) will being lit up by an active scanner have any effect on these interactions (I'm assuming "no" but it's good to cover the bases :) ).
Cheers, Cross |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.
It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.
But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.
At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?
EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?
However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage. Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack.
Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation. How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in? An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed.
In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge.
Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check.
if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
735
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades.
But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Infantry Scout:: 45 dB Assault: 50 dB Logistics: 50 dB Heavy: 65 dB
Vehicles All unlisted (unless I missed one when I checked)
Proposal, since the values for vehicles are unlisted set all vehicles to take 100% damage. Scaling for infantry could work something like this;
F * [(S + 10) / 100] = Damage applied.
Where; F = total Flux damage S = signature
Now this is just a first attempt of the top of my head so it may not be optimal/properly balanced at this point but hopefully it conveys the basic concept. Two factors to keep in mind when considering this are A) Who low a mark can a profile reach with fully skill and fittings support, B) will being lit up by an active scanner have any effect on these interactions (I'm assuming "no" but it's good to cover the bases :) ).
Cheers, Cross
If we go with this math, then delivery system for Flux would have to change. Perhaps a forward projected pulse. If you limit the effectiveness, you must improve the means of delivery. It better be hard to miss with.
At this point, if you keep it as a grenade, you're better off using regular grenades and speccing into the higher end.
OR you need to give Flux grenades some measure of controlled armor damage.
Either way, if you end the ability to drop shields, you need to make up for the loss of reliability in some other way. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades.
But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators.
This^
So much this.
If you're caught in the blast yield, down the shields go. If you're nearby, you simply take some damage. The effectiveness would actually be enhanced by this. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
389
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.
It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.
But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.
At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?
EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?
However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage. Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack. Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation. How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in? An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed. In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge. Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check. if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry.
By your argument a militia forge should be able to easily kill a proto HAV because it was designed to kill the tank. However we all know that the lower lvl forge guns take many shots before they do significant dmg to the tank. You said 2 nades...why do you use 2 nades all you need it 1 to completely nullify all infantry shields in a large radius.
Also you spend your time defending the flux but you dont even consider the hypothesis I posed where if there was a weapon that would insta destroy all armor at standard level wouldnt that be unbalanced? Why have you note responded.....I believe its probably because you know that weapon to be unbalanced. Even if you argue..... well you have shields dont you if you dont have enough shields and they are taken down easily then you should die to the X nade.....you probably realize how rediculous that sounds. Yet that is the same argument you are using. I am sorry but I dont agree that there should be a weapon that will instantly nullify all shields for infantry just because that weapon was scaled to do shield damage to shield tanks.
Oh and BTW most weapons are designed to hurt shields more than armor. AR 110% against shields, LR 120%, Shotgun (not sure the actual percentage but it was designed to destroy shields just as fast as armor), Forge, Flux, Scrambler. All of these get bonus dmg or do 100% dmg against shields. Yes you state that there needs to be a AOE weapon that if it only slightly touches you will remove up to 1200 shields at standard lvl? I go back to my argument....does a nade that does 1200 armor at standard lvl with a large AOE sound balanced to you? |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
389
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:This basically means Jathniel that Shield tanking will result in more damage done to your shields by Flux nades. I don't know if it will be a linear function of damage to signature, as that would just equate to loss of the same % of shields, but nonetheless, more shields = more damage sustained by Flux nades.
But in my honest opinion, I think that flux nades should strip out all shields within a given area of the nade and deliver severe damage to shields outside of primary area. It gives more purpose to use the Shield Regulators.
I could see this being a possible solution as well. Where distance from the nade will determine the extend of dmg the flux does to the shields. Right now the standard have a 6 meter radius i believe where is does full dmg to shields and then none outside of it. If you change it so that is does 1200 dmg to 0-1.5 meters, 900 1.5-2.0 meters, 600 2.0-2.5 meters, 500 2.5 - 3.0 meters, 400 3.0- 3.5 meters, 3.5 - 6.0 meters does 300 shield dmg. This would still keep its effectiveness against vehicles and give a reason for using higher tier flux vs infantry as you would do more dmg to shields in the extreme edge of the flux.
Although I still think flux nades taking sig profile into account would be a better option. Because then people who are shield tanked will take a heavier hit from a flux then someone who is armor tanked. Right now it just doesnt matter. The flux is scaled to do good dmg vs a shield HAV and it also has the benefit of completely stripping all shields from all infantry in a large AOE. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
120
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Jathniel wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I kinda like it. As a flux nade using scout.
It's a buff for profile dampening, and nerfing Fluxes but within a limit.
But there's a foreseeable problem. Signature: Damage ratio.
At what ratio could you find a balance where the flux nades will do full damage but purely shield wise to something with such great signature and then apply that to something with such small signature? The grenade might get over nerfed on the level of infantry signatures and not be able to damage shields considerably let alone strip them completely?
EDIT: Secondly, what would be signature of factor for 100% Damage? And how could that signature of factor be scaled to be just as effective with infantry (not % of shield stripped, more like shields stripped to overall potential of nade)?
However with this nerf, the Flux nade needs to be able to work by disregarding cover. I've used my Flux nades and some fool halfway behind a crate will not receive any damage. Those are good questions. I honestly dont know how much the signature profile of the HAV is in comparison to a dropsuit. Also I think that the scaling could be dropped off if the differences are too drastic to make it truly scalable between the HAV and the dropsuit. So that towards the bottom end it would take more signature profile lowering to lower the effectiveness of the flux nade. Like i said it was an idea that Beers thought of and I liked it. I dont have all the answers but thought that it at least diserved a post so that the prospect could be considered and debated. Posts like Jathniel that just immediately disregard this possible issue are not productive those kind of posts just show that they dont want to even possibly consider the fact that a lvl 1 nade that can completely anihilate the shields of a 200K+ suit is probably slightly out of wack. Okay. You spent money on a suit that uses shields, knowing that there is a weapon dedicated to shield annihilation. How does the amount of money you spent on the suit factor in? An armor plate or two would help compensate for some perceived 'unfairness factor' for getting fluxed. In general, shields have no disadvantages save vs. Flux and Forge. Why is this so hard to understand? For infantry, Shields have a critical advantage over every other defense principle, and only two flux grenades keep it in check. if you somehow think the amount of isk you spend is supposed to somehow reduce the effectiveness of the weapon DESIGNED to neutralize your defense, you are sorely mistaken. I'm sorry. By your argument a militia forge should be able to easily kill a proto HAV because it was designed to kill the tank. However we all know that the lower lvl forge guns take many shots before they do significant dmg to the tank. You said 2 nades...why do you use 2 nades all you need it 1 to completely nullify all infantry shields in a large radius. Also you spend your time defending the flux but you dont even consider the hypothesis I posed where if there was a weapon that would insta destroy all armor at standard level wouldnt that be unbalanced? Why have you note responded.....I believe its probably because you know that weapon to be unbalanced. Even if you argue..... well you have shields dont you if you dont have enough shields and they are taken down easily then you should die to the X nade.....you probably realize how rediculous that sounds. Yet that is the same argument you are using. I am sorry but I dont agree that there should be a weapon that will instantly nullify all shields for infantry just because that weapon was scaled to do shield damage to shield tanks. Oh and BTW most weapons are designed to hurt shields more than armor. AR 110% against shields, LR 120%, Shotgun (not sure the actual percentage but it was designed to destroy shields just as fast as armor), Forge, Flux, Scrambler. All of these get bonus dmg or do 100% dmg against shields. Yes you state that there needs to be a AOE weapon that if it only slightly touches you will remove up to 1200 shields at standard lvl? I go back to my argument....does a nade that does 1200 armor at standard lvl with a large AOE sound balanced to you?
My speaking of two grenades was a typo. I apologize for any misunderstanding that may have caused.
You die when (usually) armor hits 0, not when shields hit 0.
Shields go back up nearly instantaneously compared to armor. To claim that shields dropping instantly would be as critical or imbalanced as armor dropping instantly is inexact, erroneous, and dishonest. All it does is reveal an error that you and many others potentially have in your builds... too heavy a reliance on shields. If this were not the case, then this thread would not be here.
I didn't say anything about ARs, or maximum effective ranges. I said a flux grenade should knock off your shields. Whether it does 1200 HP shield damage is irrelevant, since you don't have nearly that much to begin with.
All you are looking for is an excuse for it not to hurt you anymore. Or not hurt you 'as much'. You invested so much into your shields after all. You don't like that someone else, who you should have an advantage over with all your shield capacity, has a chance at balancing the odds, or turning the odds against you, in a firefight with a Flux. Or perhaps you don't like that a skilled flanker can pop your entire squad with a Flux, and then proceed to mop up each and every one of you with your left over 100+ armor HP.
In any case, the error is with you, not the Flux Grenade. |
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