Here's the math. Now tanker biggest excuse for how strong their tanks are is useless, all they have left is the ISK cost.

Just to summarize those numbers so you don't have to wade through the whole post, a tank takes [17,734,880 SP to max out a single type build, while a dropsuit requires 29,238,921 SP to max out a single class. That is a difference of 11,504,041 SP.

your forgetting that the tanker needs some skills for foot soldering, also some skills are shared.

plus you only get 0 marks... you didnt show your working out.

My work is in the thread I listed. You can add up the numbers yourself, all the numbers are listed in the thread mentioned.

Also, tankers require no such thing if they have a squad. If they want to they can, but it is not required to max out their class. You could just as easily say an AR suit needs to spec AV to deal with vehicles, but that isn't factored in here either.

The tank is x12 skill, when BO HAVs drop back into play it requires lvl5 which is like an extra 3-4mil of SP where as suits are only x8

Most weapons are also a x2 skill, for tanks you need small turrets to x4 in just 1 class then you need larget turrets which are like a x3 or 2 i cant remember then the prof is x5 like other weapons

Plus some skills are shared like the armor/shield skills maybe except adapation which is used for hardners, plus turret skills/upgrades are for tankers, CPU/PG effect both to an extent

Plus tankers do need some SP into ground pounding so they can take a rest and shoot ppl or just do it anyways to save up some isk

Tanks will always be a bigger SP sink as it is and the more types of turrets which are added (autocannons/arty/laser) then its more SP plus we have yet to get Amarr and Minmatar HAVs

I don't get what you are trying to prove...

So tanks take less SP to max? Who cares? Tanks are easily countered, but are still well worth their ISK cost. This game isn't about everything being 1v1 balanced. It's about risk. What are you willing to spend to ensure victory?

Check the link. I included HAV all the way up to level 5, and the dropsuits still cost over 11 MIL more SP. The skills for maxing a tank are more SP intensive, but the sheer number of skills required to max out an infantry class makes their SP requirements obscenely higher.

.

You know you have a bad post when I have to post.

When av nades can counter my proto tank things aren't balanced
When swarms stacked with damage mods can do 4000-5000(without hardeners) things aren't balanced
Only some points I don't need to explain everything do I?

6 missiles time (300 times 1.33) = 4000-5000?

6 missiles time (300 times 1.33) = 4000-5000?

Link doesnt work

So until i see the working out and maths then no tanks as a base will always require more SP than a suit

well link this post to your other.

oh and if your against 2 good squads your tanks dead so thats 1 invalid point

That my dear boy is why damage mods are broken. And av nades :)

You know you have a bad post when I have to post.

When av nades can counter my proto tank things aren't balanced
When swarms stacked with damage mods can do 4000-5000(without hardeners) things aren't balanced
Only some points I don't need to explain everything do I?

You know you have a bad post when I have to post.

When av nades can counter my proto tank things aren't balanced
When swarms stacked with damage mods can do 4000-5000(without hardeners) things aren't balanced
Only some points I don't need to explain everything do I?

Wow. People annoy me. So you think it should take 2 good squads to take out a tank? Your point is invalid because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Wow. People annoy me. So you think it should take 2 good squads to take out a tank? Your point is invalid because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

what your trying to argue is a maxed out infantry costs more than a maxed tank, well its fundamentally flawed.
you took into account ALL skills to max the infantry but not all to max the tanker afterall the tanker is a soldier inside a tank.

as a result the tanker needs identical skills aswell as additional skills for tank operation and components and the turrets affecting small turrets would also be shared.

no matter your math tanking will always be a SP and ISK drain as its a very expensive role and as specialist as it is it demand generalised (foot soldier) skills as a backup.

most of skills in your calculations are core skills with just AR, grenadier, SMG and nanocircuitary (to an extent) bein skills of a specialist role whereas most vehicle skills are specialist

BS, adv tanks built properly walkover militia av no problem, the same cant be said for proto dropsuits now can they?

Every skill for the build supplied was taken into account, same goes for the tank, all the way up into proficiency levels for all turrets, etc. Sorry you don't feel like reading it all, but if you aren't willing to look it up, don't post about it.

You can't factor in handheld upgrade skills and proficiency skills when there is no HAV equivalent to those skills. You're just saying that Dropsuit Skills require more SP because there are more of them, which is super redundant.

You have picked away at the list

You forgot about PG/CPU upgrades, Maurader skill, Caldari HAV, large missiles + prof

Also the tank pilot themseleves will have various skills in dropsuits/weapons/nades etc to around lvl3 so they can compete when not in the tank

But also take into account that infantry has more choice right now than a tank driver

Tank driver are waiting for AC/arty and lazer turrets not too mention Amarr and Minmatar HAV hulls and hopefully we get a pilot suit with mods which enhance our vehicles

So really its skewed completely because you took out the driver from the tank, them skills is to max the tank even tho you missed a few, including the tank driver the total SP is way more than just an infantry guy

The hell you talking about? If they are in militia gear, they are dead. Free kills. Maybe the top 2% of players in militia gear are kinda a threat. Kinda.

QFT

oh and if your against 2 good squads your tanks dead so thats 1 invalid point

Wow. People annoy me. So you think it should take 2 good squads to take out a tank? Your point is invalid because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

read the lot b4 commenting...

it was said that a gd support squad nullifies need for foot soldier skills however against 2 gd/great squad then your supports dead aswell as your tank with inability to call another safely causing it to be a foot soldier battle with tanker having no foot soldier skills whatsoever.

if you decide to comment on this post read it all otherwise youll make a larger fool of yourself

A) This is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION.

B) I left out large missiles because 1) They are pretty much useless and 2) that would require I add EVERY WEAPON THAT AN INFANTRY SOLDIER COULD USE since that would mean I am maxing out the infantry class and not just a specialized class.

C) I left out caldari HAV because, once again, this is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. Should I go back and add in every dropsuit class when I add the one other HAV class? This is far more equal this way, I promise you.

D) ONE SPECIALIZATION, meaning the infantry player is not speccing for vehicles, and the vehicle player is not speccing for infantry.

E) More choices of tank weaponry would not change anything since this is about SPECIALIZING.

A) This is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION.

B) I left out large missiles because 1) They are pretty much useless and 2) that would require I add EVERY WEAPON THAT AN INFANTRY SOLDIER COULD USE since that would mean I am maxing out the infantry class and not just a specialized class.

C) I left out caldari HAV because, once again, this is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. Should I go back and add in every dropsuit class when I add the one other HAV class? This is far more equal this way, I promise you.

D) ONE SPECIALIZATION, meaning the infantry player is not speccing for vehicles, and the vehicle player is not speccing for infantry.

E) More choices of tank weaponry would not change anything since this is about SPECIALIZING.

If that was stated in this thread I completely missed it. If it was stated in the other thread, why the heck do we have two threads. It's complicated enough reading and comprehending everything in one thread without having to cross reference with another thread.

Regardless, I misunderstood then. However, foot soldier skills have no bearing on the skills needed to become a tanker. Any attempt to include them is silly. If a tanker wants to also be a good foot solider, cool beans, but it is not a requisite part of being a tanker, and it is definitely not relevant to calculations comparing the number of skill points needed for the two styles.

However, and I may have missed this as well as I did not feel like checking all of the math in the other post, make sure you are including shield skills and field mechanics and such - while they do benefit the foot solider, they are also essential to tankers (I'm assuming you already have, but just saying it in case).

Finally, Brucie:

For calling people names. Really? Feel better now? So manly and now I completely agree with your point of view. ROFL.

Not very many people skill into AV. I am actually skilling into Swarms now that AR is at proficiency 3. Its only a matter of time before others do, and then the tables will turn and people who only tank will have to change their tactics.

Most of the tankers will just QQ for nerfs/buffs though. Tanking is easy when only about 20% of DUST players have skilled into some form of AV. Why do you think you can go a whole round without dying... because no one has good enough weapons. And one of the main points of DUST is to over power the enemy through skill and assets.

You dont need to skill into AV

Your doing it wrong - milita is fine, if not that then grind for an OB it pretty much kills any tank

You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here.

If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP.

--snipped for space--

This is my logic for saying that the math is redundant. There are more skills in Infantry that don't apply to tanks than tank skills that don't apply to infantry, a lot more. So you can't rightly say that Dropsuits are cheaper if you were to use skills only applicable to both (have equivalents on both sides)

thats exactly what its about SPECIALISATION... not GENERALISATION.
the bulk of the skills are generalised and therefore affect all specialisations.

therefore tanking is as expensive if not more expensive than other specialisations.


and under the current state of avrg player SP no1 has maxed general skills and wont for sometime as it is bulk of all skills, only small amount are actually specialist making all calculations invalid

Still doesnt explain why you missed out PG/CPU upgrades and Mauaruder skill which is a x12 last i remember

As for Caldari HAV at least skilling to lvl1 gives the driver an option of a shield tank, missiles another option yet you come out with some BS about it being fair and balanced when you added every skill for the SMG even tho they would not use it half as much as the main weapon and the SMG is a main weapon in its own right and can be easily used as such

Not too mention that is just for the tank, the tank driver at least has to have some skills in infantry combat when he is not in the tank or cannot use the tank ie saving up ISK where as infantry does not have this problem yet you do not even add in the basics

Your SP calcualtions are flawed and biased towards infantry since you miss out so much and pick and choose various skills to suit your outcome

Verdict - Your full of ****

HAV's don't have Turret sharpshooter skills, upgrade skills, reload skills, or capacity skills (I would like to have these so I can create a better fit)

Not to mention the fact that all the support skills effect any specialization

You should take out the support skills and add it that way

After taking out the skill points that HAV's don't get an equivalent to the AR groundpounder needs 12,449,241 sp to max out.

This just means that HAV's need more support skills so that we can benefit like groundpounders do

You are like fox news twisting facts so they support you cause,

We need HAV support skills

Here is the problem with this, you are looking at max skilling which is the problem b/c infantry has more skills. What u should do, is look at what makes the role "beastly"/effective.

That alters the SP quite a bit. Example:

Armor tanking: (someone calc as on phone on vacation)
Vehicle command
Gallente hav (this is disputable, as u can say only lv1 for madg to be effective)
Mechanics
Armor rep
Armor plate skilling
Armor hardening skilling
Hybrid small turrets
" large turret & prof
Turret upgrades
Engy
Elec


Infantry AR:
Dropsuit (lv 4 or 5 to compare if saying a madruger or surya)
AR operation & prof
Light reload
Light sharpshooter
Light usage
Mechanics
Shielding (all 3 variants.. increase base hp, recharge, use of extenders)
Grenadier
Engy
Elec
Epu upgrade skill
Vigor


This is off top of my head on what could make an AR effective... so calc that and see where the difference is

Politely I would say, irrevalent, you have to take all the skills, you will not have a choice, over time the FOTM will change, if damage mods started sucking you switch to shields, if shields did you would to armor, maybe they get suit signatures working better and you need to profile dampen, or signature attack better... You can't know, same with tanks, maybe shield hardners will start to suck so you switch to resists. Point is the same, 50% less sp to be able to keep up with FOTM/ patch changes, this is a beta after all.

As it stands you can have max tank and super decent infantry for the cost to max infantry.

& the problem u propose is look at the future. Well untill the future you speak of occurs we can only discuss what we currently have. Before u think im a tanker with what i said, im one of some who actually earned their proto suits & not using the neo ones.

So yes, if they make armor worthwhile maybe it will chance things, but as is, i listed what is more or less deemed the worthwhile skills that people have used the last 9 months

Hmm but to be fair to other side, the max infantry base gives you a lot more playability flexibilty. If your tank keeps getting smashed, you can't switch to a level 1 mass driver and do artillary on the masses, or to shotgun and meet people around the hallways or sniper rifle... Need I go on.

Not saying I think tanks are balanced in the current situations available, but CCP obviously thought the numbers out, in the long term the tank drivers have pigeon holed themselves more if some patch makes them make a career change decision.

NO, no support skills for you (in soup **** voice)

That my dear boy is why damage mods are broken. And av nades :)

Also would like to point out,

It takes tanks more sp to even become decent fit let alone effective,

While infantry it takes less to be decent fit or effective.

Agreed, but each fitting also lasts longer and a lot of the skills cross over. Which means someone who specs tanks can get their HAV skill up to lvl 1, then work on their dropsuit skills and at the same time be building skills for their HAV.

Yes, it takes more for tanks to get started for certain, but I have to say that the math really does show that to max out a single build, dropsuits require more skills and more SP. The fact that there are less skills available for tanks is kinda irrelevant to how much SP you need to max yourself out.

it's funny to see all the tankers QQing in here. Your tanks are easy mode, just accept it. They are easier to skill into, easier to use, easier to win with, cheap, more effective... just plain old easy mode on every single level. There is no argument to be had, and arguing otherwise just makes you look even sillier than you already look.