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trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
36
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You have picked away at the list
You forgot about PG/CPU upgrades, Maurader skill, Caldari HAV, large missiles + prof
Also the tank pilot themseleves will have various skills in dropsuits/weapons/nades etc to around lvl3 so they can compete when not in the tank
But also take into account that infantry has more choice right now than a tank driver
Tank driver are waiting for AC/arty and lazer turrets not too mention Amarr and Minmatar HAV hulls and hopefully we get a pilot suit with mods which enhance our vehicles
So really its skewed completely because you took out the driver from the tank, them skills is to max the tank even tho you missed a few, including the tank driver the total SP is way more than just an infantry guy QFT A) This is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION.
B) I left out large missiles because 1) They are pretty much useless and 2) that would require I add EVERY WEAPON THAT AN INFANTRY SOLDIER COULD USE since that would mean I am maxing out the infantry class and not just a specialized class.
C) I left out caldari HAV because, once again, this is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. Should I go back and add in every dropsuit class when I add the one other HAV class? This is far more equal this way, I promise you.
D) ONE SPECIALIZATION, meaning the infantry player is not speccing for vehicles, and the vehicle player is not speccing for infantry.
E) More choices of tank weaponry would not change anything since this is about SPECIALIZING.
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Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
205
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: oh and if your against 2 good squads your tanks dead so thats 1 invalid point
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Wow. People annoy me. So you think it should take 2 good squads to take out a tank? Your point is invalid because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote:read the lot b4 commenting...
it was said that a gd support squad nullifies need for foot soldier skills however against 2 gd/great squad then your supports dead aswell as your tank with inability to call another safely causing it to be a foot soldier battle with tanker having no foot soldier skills whatsoever.
if you decide to comment on this post read it all otherwise youll make a larger fool of yourself
If that was stated in this thread I completely missed it. If it was stated in the other thread, why the heck do we have two threads. It's complicated enough reading and comprehending everything in one thread without having to cross reference with another thread.
Regardless, I misunderstood then. However, foot soldier skills have no bearing on the skills needed to become a tanker. Any attempt to include them is silly. If a tanker wants to also be a good foot solider, cool beans, but it is not a requisite part of being a tanker, and it is definitely not relevant to calculations comparing the number of skill points needed for the two styles.
However, and I may have missed this as well as I did not feel like checking all of the math in the other post, make sure you are including shield skills and field mechanics and such - while they do benefit the foot solider, they are also essential to tankers (I'm assuming you already have, but just saying it in case).
Finally, Brucie:
For calling people names. Really? Feel better now? So manly and now I completely agree with your point of view. ROFL. |
Sontie
VENGEANCE FOR HIRE
103
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 18:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Can't wait for MTAC's and higher ship class OB's
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Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
119
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You have picked away at the list
You forgot about PG/CPU upgrades, Maurader skill, Caldari HAV, large missiles + prof
Also the tank pilot themseleves will have various skills in dropsuits/weapons/nades etc to around lvl3 so they can compete when not in the tank
But also take into account that infantry has more choice right now than a tank driver
Tank driver are waiting for AC/arty and lazer turrets not too mention Amarr and Minmatar HAV hulls and hopefully we get a pilot suit with mods which enhance our vehicles
So really its skewed completely because you took out the driver from the tank, them skills is to max the tank even tho you missed a few, including the tank driver the total SP is way more than just an infantry guy QFT A) This is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. B) I left out large missiles because 1) They are pretty much useless and 2) that would require I add EVERY WEAPON THAT AN INFANTRY SOLDIER COULD USE since that would mean I am maxing out the infantry class and not just a specialized class. C) I left out caldari HAV because, once again, this is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. Should I go back and add in every dropsuit class when I add the one other HAV class? This is far more equal this way, I promise you. D) ONE SPECIALIZATION, meaning the infantry player is not speccing for vehicles, and the vehicle player is not speccing for infantry. E) More choices of tank weaponry would not change anything since this is about SPECIALIZING.
Still doesnt explain why you missed out PG/CPU upgrades and Mauaruder skill which is a x12 last i remember
As for Caldari HAV at least skilling to lvl1 gives the driver an option of a shield tank, missiles another option yet you come out with some BS about it being fair and balanced when you added every skill for the SMG even tho they would not use it half as much as the main weapon and the SMG is a main weapon in its own right and can be easily used as such
Not too mention that is just for the tank, the tank driver at least has to have some skills in infantry combat when he is not in the tank or cannot use the tank ie saving up ISK where as infantry does not have this problem yet you do not even add in the basics
Your SP calcualtions are flawed and biased towards infantry since you miss out so much and pick and choose various skills to suit your outcome
Verdict - Your full of **** |
Bruce3 Wayne3
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
16
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You have picked away at the list
You forgot about PG/CPU upgrades, Maurader skill, Caldari HAV, large missiles + prof
Also the tank pilot themseleves will have various skills in dropsuits/weapons/nades etc to around lvl3 so they can compete when not in the tank
But also take into account that infantry has more choice right now than a tank driver
Tank driver are waiting for AC/arty and lazer turrets not too mention Amarr and Minmatar HAV hulls and hopefully we get a pilot suit with mods which enhance our vehicles
So really its skewed completely because you took out the driver from the tank, them skills is to max the tank even tho you missed a few, including the tank driver the total SP is way more than just an infantry guy QFT A) This is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. B) I left out large missiles because 1) They are pretty much useless and 2) that would require I add EVERY WEAPON THAT AN INFANTRY SOLDIER COULD USE since that would mean I am maxing out the infantry class and not just a specialized class. C) I left out caldari HAV because, once again, this is to max out ONE SPECIALIZATION. Should I go back and add in every dropsuit class when I add the one other HAV class? This is far more equal this way, I promise you. D) ONE SPECIALIZATION, meaning the infantry player is not speccing for vehicles, and the vehicle player is not speccing for infantry. E) More choices of tank weaponry would not change anything since this is about SPECIALIZING.
thats exactly what its about SPECIALISATION... not GENERALISATION. the bulk of the skills are generalised and therefore affect all specialisations.
therefore tanking is as expensive if not more expensive than other specialisations.
and under the current state of avrg player SP no1 has maxed general skills and wont for sometime as it is bulk of all skills, only small amount are actually specialist making all calculations invalid
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Bruce3 Wayne3
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 18:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: oh and if your against 2 good squads your tanks dead so thats 1 invalid point
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Wow. People annoy me. So you think it should take 2 good squads to take out a tank? Your point is invalid because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote:read the lot b4 commenting...
it was said that a gd support squad nullifies need for foot soldier skills however against 2 gd/great squad then your supports dead aswell as your tank with inability to call another safely causing it to be a foot soldier battle with tanker having no foot soldier skills whatsoever.
if you decide to comment on this post read it all otherwise youll make a larger fool of yourself If that was stated in this thread I completely missed it. If it was stated in the other thread, why the heck do we have two threads. It's complicated enough reading and comprehending everything in one thread without having to cross reference with another thread. Regardless, I misunderstood then. However, foot soldier skills have no bearing on the skills needed to become a tanker. Any attempt to include them is silly. If a tanker wants to also be a good foot solider, cool beans, but it is not a requisite part of being a tanker, and it is definitely not relevant to calculations comparing the number of skill points needed for the two styles. However, and I may have missed this as well as I did not feel like checking all of the math in the other post, make sure you are including shield skills and field mechanics and such - while they do benefit the foot solider, they are also essential to tankers (I'm assuming you already have, but just saying it in case). Finally, Brucie: For calling people names. Really? Feel better now? So manly and now I completely agree with your point of view. ROFL.
no names was called, the fool aspect was caused by the inability to read all what was said b4 commenting.
i repeat again for those who didnt read my last ^^^^^ sentence, no names were called.
READ READ READ... READ ALL OF SOMEONES POST BEFORE COMMENTING
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
461
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 18:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote: You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here.
If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP.
Armor Upgrades applies to Infantry as well, so that's not redundant.
You have for infantry which can't apply to Tanks (as in there is not a Vehicle equivalent)
- Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency
- Reload & it's Proficiency
- Capacity & it's Proficiency
- Upgrade & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Reload & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Capacity & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Upgrade & it's Proficiency
- Grenadier
- Endurance
- Nanocircuitry
- Profile Analysis
Now for skills that apply to vehicles only...
Vigor = Vehicle Maneuvering Turret Upgrades+Turret Operation = Weaponry (due to the fact weaponry unlocks modules and skill bonus)
Some other skills that apply to tanks only are Shield Emission (For now) Shield Adaptation
This is my logic for saying that the math is redundant. There are more skills in Infantry that don't apply to tanks than tank skills that don't apply to infantry, a lot more. So you can't rightly say that Dropsuits are cheaper if you were to use skills only applicable to both (have equivalents on both sides) |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
105
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
Not very many people skill into AV. I am actually skilling into Swarms now that AR is at proficiency 3. Its only a matter of time before others do, and then the tables will turn and people who only tank will have to change their tactics.
Most of the tankers will just QQ for nerfs/buffs though. Tanking is easy when only about 20% of DUST players have skilled into some form of AV. Why do you think you can go a whole round without dying... because no one has good enough weapons. And one of the main points of DUST is to over power the enemy through skill and assets. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:Not very many people skill into AV. I am actually skilling into Swarms now that AR is at proficiency 3. Its only a matter of time before others do, and then the tables will turn and people who only tank will have to change their tactics.
Most of the tankers will just QQ for nerfs/buffs though. Tanking is easy when only about 20% of DUST players have skilled into some form of AV. Why do you think you can go a whole round without dying... because no one has good enough weapons. And one of the main points of DUST is to over power the enemy through skill and assets.
You dont need to skill into AV
Your doing it wrong - milita is fine, if not that then grind for an OB it pretty much kills any tank |
Severus Smith
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
170
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tanks just need a better hard counter. Add real Heavy Tanks. They decimate smaller tanks but their size, turn speed, and large gun limits their effectiveness against infantry. Solves the problem for infantry and gives tankers more toys. |
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Rustonius
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
What are some people saying?
He has done the math to make the toughest tank build and the math to make toughest infantry.
It takes 11 million more sp to max out an infantary build.
Let's just say for arguments sake say that one soldier is equal to one tank, which most would argue is not the case, but let's just say they are, it takes 11million sp less to "equal" a shotty, a masshole, an ar, a sniper, etc (but not a forge/heavy user, that's even more expensive).
As in it takes 50% more sp to keep up with the Jones as infantry and not fall behind, while the tanker did it in 2/3rds the time. |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Here is the problem with this, you are looking at max skilling which is the problem b/c infantry has more skills. What u should do, is look at what makes the role "beastly"/effective.
That alters the SP quite a bit. Example:
Armor tanking: (someone calc as on phone on vacation) Vehicle command Gallente hav (this is disputable, as u can say only lv1 for madg to be effective) Mechanics Armor rep Armor plate skilling Armor hardening skilling Hybrid small turrets " large turret & prof Turret upgrades Engy Elec
Infantry AR: Dropsuit (lv 4 or 5 to compare if saying a madruger or surya) AR operation & prof Light reload Light sharpshooter Light usage Mechanics Shielding (all 3 variants.. increase base hp, recharge, use of extenders) Grenadier Engy Elec Epu upgrade skill Vigor
This is off top of my head on what could make an AR effective... so calc that and see where the difference is |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
105
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Don Von Hulio wrote:Not very many people skill into AV. I am actually skilling into Swarms now that AR is at proficiency 3. Its only a matter of time before others do, and then the tables will turn and people who only tank will have to change their tactics.
Most of the tankers will just QQ for nerfs/buffs though. Tanking is easy when only about 20% of DUST players have skilled into some form of AV. Why do you think you can go a whole round without dying... because no one has good enough weapons. And one of the main points of DUST is to over power the enemy through skill and assets. You dont need to skill into AV Your doing it wrong - milita is fine, if not that then grind for an OB it pretty much kills any tank
Do you even play DUST?
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slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
470
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:You can't factor in handheld upgrade skills and proficiency skills when there is no HAV equivalent to those skills. You're just saying that Dropsuit Skills require more SP because there are more of them, which is super redundant. You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here. If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP.
HAV's don't have Turret sharpshooter skills, upgrade skills, reload skills, or capacity skills (I would like to have these so I can create a better fit)
Not to mention the fact that all the support skills effect any specialization
You should take out the support skills and add it that way
After taking out the skill points that HAV's don't get an equivalent to the AR groundpounder needs 12,449,241 sp to max out.
This just means that HAV's need more support skills so that we can benefit like groundpounders do
You are like fox news twisting facts so they support you cause,
We need HAV support skills |
trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:trollface dot jpg wrote:--snipped for space-- If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP. --snipped for space-- This is my logic for saying that the math is redundant. There are more skills in Infantry that don't apply to tanks than tank skills that don't apply to infantry, a lot more. So you can't rightly say that Dropsuits are cheaper if you were to use skills only applicable to both (have equivalents on both sides) It's redundant to spec Armor Upgrades to lvl 5 for tankers since it's only for a small PG upgrade on one type of module. But only allowing for skills that have a duplicate would be distorting the results since to fully MAX the class out, you have to have those skills, regardless of how redundant those skills may seem. I added armor adaptation, which has no dropsuit equivalent. I added both small turret skills as well as the large hybrid. basically giving the tank 2 different sidearm skills while only giving the dropsuit one. I gave it both turret operation AND turret upgrades even though dropsuits only have weaponry. I added all the skills needed to max out the basic average build that I put forward. Hell, I put in turret upgrades even though this armor tank build doesn't use anything from that skill's category. In order to max your SMG, you require the passive skills for it. It's not a matter of what the similiar skills between them cost, it's about how much does the total class cost altogether.
And yes, shield adaptation and emission are skills for tanks too, but have no effect on the tank class I listed as the specialization I was going after.
Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote:thats exactly what its about SPECIALISATION... not GENERALISATION. the bulk of the skills are generalised and therefore affect all specialisations.
therefore tanking is as expensive if not more expensive than other specialisations.
and under the current state of avrg player SP no1 has maxed general skills and wont for sometime as it is bulk of all skills, only small amount are actually specialist making all calculations invalid
Generalized skills are still a part of maxing out the class, regardless of what else they effect. Should I have left out weaponry too since it effects ALL weapons and I didn't list weapon damage mods on the build sheet? --snipped for space--
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Still doesnt explain why you missed out PG/CPU upgrades and Mauaruder skill which is a x12 last i remember
As for Caldari HAV at least skilling to lvl1 gives the driver an option of a shield tank, missiles another option yet you come out with some BS about it being fair and balanced when you added every skill for the SMG even tho they would not use it half as much as the main weapon and the SMG is a main weapon in its own right and can be easily used as such
Not too mention that is just for the tank, the tank driver at least has to have some skills in infantry combat when he is not in the tank or cannot use the tank ie saving up ISK where as infantry does not have this problem yet you do not even add in the basics
Your SP calcualtions are flawed and biased towards infantry since you miss out so much and pick and choose various skills to suit your outcome
Verdict - Your full of **** PG/CPU upgrades are not in in the basic builds I layed out, both for the dropsuit AND the tank. But if you like, I can go back and add it in for both. Won't change the gap though, and gives no passive bonus to tanks unless that mod itself is equipped.
The marauder skill is racial based, and this is a blaster build, so you have a 1/4 chance of being the correct race to have this effect this build at all. To avoid arguments from the dropsuits side, I left it out. But if it's that important to you, 3,731,040 is the SP increase you would need to add for a maxed 12x skill. Still leaves you FAR behind a maxed dropsuit.
As I didn't give the infantry points for any vehicle training, I gave the tanker no points for dropsuit training. Of course a real player will spec for a little infantry work, but this isn't measuring that, otherwise I'd have added in points for the infantry side since almost all infantry spec at least a little into AV. This is strictly measuring the difference between the two specializations.
As for the SMG skills, they may not be used as much as the main weapon, but in order to max out the class you have to max out every skill involved. Just like I maxed out armor upgrades and shield enhancements for the tankers here even though they only need to get to level 3 to get all of the armor and shield mods, I maxed it out for them so they could get that additional PG% drop on all armor and shield mods.
If you like, pick a single tank build of your own making and we'll put it's maxed out SP req's up against this BASIC everyday dropsuit build's maxed out SP req's. It won't matter. Specializing in one build alone and maxing it, the dropsuit will cost more SP every time. |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
slap26 wrote:trollface dot jpg wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:You can't factor in handheld upgrade skills and proficiency skills when there is no HAV equivalent to those skills. You're just saying that Dropsuit Skills require more SP because there are more of them, which is super redundant. You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here. If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP. HAV's don't have Turret sharpshooter skills, upgrade skills, reload skills, or capacity skills (I would like to have these so I can create a better fit) Not to mention the fact that all the support skills effect any specialization You should take out the support skills and add it that way After taking out the skill points that HAV's don't get an equivalent to the AR groundpounder needs 12,449,241 sp to max out. This just means that HAV's need more support skills so that we can benefit like groundpounders do You are like fox news twisting facts so they support you cause, We need HAV support skills
NO, no support skills for you (in soup na*i voice) |
Rustonius
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
Politely I would say, irrevalent, you have to take all the skills, you will not have a choice, over time the FOTM will change, if damage mods started sucking you switch to shields, if shields did you would to armor, maybe they get suit signatures working better and you need to profile dampen, or signature attack better... You can't know, same with tanks, maybe shield hardners will start to suck so you switch to resists. Point is the same, 50% less sp to be able to keep up with FOTM/ patch changes, this is a beta after all.
As it stands you can have max tank and super decent infantry for the cost to max infantry.
Berserker007 wrote:Here is the problem with this, you are looking at max skilling which is the problem b/c infantry has more skills. What u should do, is look at what makes the role "beastly"/effective.
That alters the SP quite a bit. Example:
Armor tanking: (someone calc as on phone on vacation) Vehicle command Gallente hav (this is disputable, as u can say only lv1 for madg to be effective) Mechanics Armor rep Armor plate skilling Armor hardening skilling Hybrid small turrets " large turret & prof Turret upgrades Engy Elec
Infantry AR: Dropsuit (lv 4 or 5 to compare if saying a madruger or surya) AR operation & prof Light reload Light sharpshooter Light usage Mechanics Shielding (all 3 variants.. increase base hp, recharge, use of extenders) Grenadier Engy Elec Epu upgrade skill Vigor
This is off top of my head on what could make an AR effective... so calc that and see where the difference is
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Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 19:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
Rustonius wrote:Politely I would say, irrevalent, you have to take all the skills, you will not have a choice, over time the FOTM will change, if damage mods started sucking you switch to shields, if shields did you would to armor, maybe they get suit signatures working better and you need to profile dampen, or signature attack better... You can't know, same with tanks, maybe shield hardners will start to suck so you switch to resists. Point is the same, 50% less sp to be able to keep up with FOTM/ patch changes, this is a beta after all. As it stands you can have max tank and super decent infantry for the cost to max infantry. Berserker007 wrote:Here is the problem with this, you are looking at max skilling which is the problem b/c infantry has more skills. What u should do, is look at what makes the role "beastly"/effective.
That alters the SP quite a bit. Example:
Armor tanking: (someone calc as on phone on vacation) Vehicle command Gallente hav (this is disputable, as u can say only lv1 for madg to be effective) Mechanics Armor rep Armor plate skilling Armor hardening skilling Hybrid small turrets " large turret & prof Turret upgrades Engy Elec
Infantry AR: Dropsuit (lv 4 or 5 to compare if saying a madruger or surya) AR operation & prof Light reload Light sharpshooter Light usage Mechanics Shielding (all 3 variants.. increase base hp, recharge, use of extenders) Grenadier Engy Elec Epu upgrade skill Vigor
This is off top of my head on what could make an AR effective... so calc that and see where the difference is
& the problem u propose is look at the future. Well untill the future you speak of occurs we can only discuss what we currently have. Before u think im a tanker with what i said, im one of some who actually earned their proto suits & not using the neo ones.
So yes, if they make armor worthwhile maybe it will chance things, but as is, i listed what is more or less deemed the worthwhile skills that people have used the last 9 months |
trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 20:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Rustonius wrote:Politely I would say, irrevalent, you have to take all the skills, you will not have a choice, over time the FOTM will change, if damage mods started sucking you switch to shields, if shields did you would to armor, maybe they get suit signatures working better and you need to profile dampen, or signature attack better... You can't know, same with tanks, maybe shield hardners will start to suck so you switch to resists. Point is the same, 50% less sp to be able to keep up with FOTM/ patch changes, this is a beta after all. As it stands you can have max tank and super decent infantry for the cost to max infantry. Berserker007 wrote:Here is the problem with this, you are looking at max skilling which is the problem b/c infantry has more skills. What u should do, is look at what makes the role "beastly"/effective.
That alters the SP quite a bit. Example:
Armor tanking: (someone calc as on phone on vacation) Vehicle command Gallente hav (this is disputable, as u can say only lv1 for madg to be effective) Mechanics Armor rep Armor plate skilling Armor hardening skilling Hybrid small turrets " large turret & prof Turret upgrades Engy Elec
Infantry AR: Dropsuit (lv 4 or 5 to compare if saying a madruger or surya) AR operation & prof Light reload Light sharpshooter Light usage Mechanics Shielding (all 3 variants.. increase base hp, recharge, use of extenders) Grenadier Engy Elec Epu upgrade skill Vigor
This is off top of my head on what could make an AR effective... so calc that and see where the difference is & the problem u propose is look at the future. Well untill the future you speak of occurs we can only discuss what we currently have. Before u think im a tanker with what i said, im one of some who actually earned their proto suits & not using the neo ones. So yes, if they make armor worthwhile maybe it will chance things, but as is, i listed what is more or less deemed the worthwhile skills that people have used the last 9 months I will work these calculations out for you, but later. I've been calculating this crap since early this morning and am getting burt out on forum posting atm. But I promise I will. If any of you wish to do it yourself, you can find the SP req's statsheet here for all SP 00x skills |
Rustonius
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:07:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hmm but to be fair to other side, the max infantry base gives you a lot more playability flexibilty. If your tank keeps getting smashed, you can't switch to a level 1 mass driver and do artillary on the masses, or to shotgun and meet people around the hallways or sniper rifle... Need I go on.
Not saying I think tanks are balanced in the current situations available, but CCP obviously thought the numbers out, in the long term the tank drivers have pigeon holed themselves more if some patch makes them make a career change decision. |
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trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 01:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Rustonius wrote:Hmm but to be fair to other side, the max infantry base gives you a lot more playability flexibilty. If your tank keeps getting smashed, you can't switch to a level 1 mass driver and do artillary on the masses, or to shotgun and meet people around the hallways or sniper rifle... Need I go on.
Not saying I think tanks are balanced in the current situations available, but CCP obviously thought the numbers out, in the long term the tank drivers have pigeon holed themselves more if some patch makes them make a career change decision. Which is why smart tankers spec into other things as well, but for the purposes of this calculation it's a direct comparison between the two specializations to see which is more SP intensive. |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
490
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 02:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
Also would like to point out,
It takes tanks more sp to even become decent fit let alone effective,
While infantry it takes less to be decent fit or effective. |
Delanus Turgias
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
65
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 03:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:slap26 wrote:trollface dot jpg wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:You can't factor in handheld upgrade skills and proficiency skills when there is no HAV equivalent to those skills. You're just saying that Dropsuit Skills require more SP because there are more of them, which is super redundant. You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here. If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP. HAV's don't have Turret sharpshooter skills, upgrade skills, reload skills, or capacity skills (I would like to have these so I can create a better fit) Not to mention the fact that all the support skills effect any specialization You should take out the support skills and add it that way After taking out the skill points that HAV's don't get an equivalent to the AR groundpounder needs 12,449,241 sp to max out. This just means that HAV's need more support skills so that we can benefit like groundpounders do You are like fox news twisting facts so they support you cause, We need HAV support skills NO, no support skills for you (in soup **** voice)
I chuckled a little. But seriously, the fact that there are things that make infantry more effective that tanks simply cannot do or don't have (stamina, weapon upgrade, hacking, sensors) makes OPs point slightly irrelevant.
Tanks are not an asset. Tanks are a liability. When you step into a tank, you are expecting that your squad can capture objectives and keep AV infantry off your ass. If you drive tanks without squad support, you are either gonna go boom real fast, or you are exceedingly good at solo tanks.
When calculating skill points and which one is a bigger investment, keep that in mind.
Personally, I think HAV skills beyond what we have now would be great, as long as they didn't invalidate the modules/skills we have. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2307
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 03:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mr Zitro wrote:Sontie wrote:6 missiles time (300 times 1.33) = 4000-5000? That my dear boy is why damage mods are broken. And av nades :)
^^^ this. also explains how rails can 2-3 shot any tank |
Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 04:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
Simple math, tanks have turrets, hybrids (large) and two branches of hulls
Suits have 4 separate skills for types and 8 weapon systems (non overlap)
Large hybrids for tanks runs the gambit from fraging close infantry to sniping stuff far away
In the future more tanks might exist.
Of course skills overlap, so the skills that help for fitting tanks help for fitting suits.
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The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1071
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 06:20:00 -
[56] - Quote
Duh you got all the support skills like quicker reload, sharpsooter etc. You forget the thing that tanks do not have additional support skills like faster cooldown for hybrid turrets or better range. Im aware that there are turrets/modules for that but we actually have to pay alot of ISK to achieve that. And who gives a damn if you specced out tanks faster then infantry? |
trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
41
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 07:48:00 -
[57] - Quote
Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:Also would like to point out,
It takes tanks more sp to even become decent fit let alone effective,
While infantry it takes less to be decent fit or effective. Agreed, but each fitting also lasts longer and a lot of the skills cross over. Which means someone who specs tanks can get their HAV skill up to lvl 1, then work on their dropsuit skills and at the same time be building skills for their HAV. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
261
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 00:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:Also would like to point out,
It takes tanks more sp to even become decent fit let alone effective,
While infantry it takes less to be decent fit or effective. Agreed, but each fitting also lasts longer and a lot of the skills cross over. Which means someone who specs tanks can get their HAV skill up to lvl 1, then work on their dropsuit skills and at the same time be building skills for their HAV. Yes, it takes more for tanks to get started for certain, but I have to say that the math really does show that to max out a single build, dropsuits require more skills and more SP. The fact that there are less skills available for tanks is kinda irrelevant to how much SP you need to max yourself out. |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
587
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 00:17:00 -
[59] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:trollface dot jpg wrote:Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:Also would like to point out,
It takes tanks more sp to even become decent fit let alone effective,
While infantry it takes less to be decent fit or effective. Agreed, but each fitting also lasts longer and a lot of the skills cross over. Which means someone who specs tanks can get their HAV skill up to lvl 1, then work on their dropsuit skills and at the same time be building skills for their HAV. Yes, it takes more for tanks to get started for certain, but I have to say that the math really does show that to max out a single build, dropsuits require more skills and more SP. The fact that there are less skills available for tanks is kinda irrelevant to how much SP you need to max yourself out.
Except we're maxing out Gal HAV.
That means like maxing out gal cruiser V in eve.
How do I know?
Look at the maurader skill, the description says, unlocks vehicles that require the maurader skill.
So in eve after cruiser V then you have the t2 types.
Heavy assault,
Logistics,
Heavy interdictors,
Recon, aka covert ops(insert black ops tank here)
Strategic cruisers
Right now we have standard and advanced tanks, no tank roles.
Each role will have a X12 skill
And there will be a lot of them.
For each tank race.
Well most secondary like logistics ect will apply to the other races after that races HAV hits level V |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
BetaMax.
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 01:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
I lost 10 minutes of me life, forever. |
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