SP is based on several things and has changed several times so I don't track it anymore. WP is based on specific things that are pretty much clearly understood. A Kill is +50 which mean WP. For that matter, anything that appears on your screen as a +(number) is WP.

SP farming by MCC camping and such are being actively investigated with the intent on fixing the problem. Check the Updates in the sticky in this Forum.

You* do not appear to understand how the Red Line (which define the Red Zone) works. There are Two sets of Red Lines. One is for the Attacker and a Different set for the Defender.

Neither side can See the Red Lines that affect the Opposing side. The Mercs on the other side of Your Red Line are in their normal battle area. Which is no different then the middle of the battlefield visually. If they were in their Red Zone, they would die in 20 seconds. Just like you.

Take a look at some of the maps:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=forum&c=235

Pick a Skirmish map and become familiar with what the Red Zone looks like. Be aware that the JPEG doesn't show all the information and the Red Line may be seriously out of date. Then as you play notice where the Red Zone is when you play Attacker. Next notice when you play Defender. The results are different and significantly so.

How can you punish someone for being in their battlefield? It would mean that everyone would die within 20 seconds after hitting the ground as they are both in Red Zones (just not their own). Considering that Red Zone violations will kill you in a Dropship means that you would die in the MCC so you had better jump fast ... so you can die in the DUST.



* And nearly every Merc playing DUST, considering how many posts there are with posters upset about Snipers (or whatever) that must be punished for being past the Red Line.

I see the MCC being out of game. But what happens when ppl get pushed to redzone just cause they are getting trounced? How do they fight back from an OOG position?

Being "redlined" is punishment enough. You're already being thrashed by a superior force so it would just be insult to injury to make the system punish you as well. We already have people who will enter a game and then immediately leave if they see that their side has been redlined. Adding a system to "punish" players on top of that, and you'll end up with games that will only last until one side has been "redlined", at which point the "redlined" team will just leave the match. Seriously. Why try at that point if I have to go kamikaze AND not get points for it. Besides, what if my team winds up winning because we clone out the force that has "redlined" us? Do we just not recieve points for that?

Redline Sniping is a legitemate battlefield tactic, made possible by that fact that most of the really good sniping positions on ANY map are usually behind the redline somewhere. Now, I agree that having too many snipers is detrimental, and will probably lead to your side losing the match, but the same is true for any other Suit Class as well. Heavies are devastating on a battlefield, and rightly so, but if you have an entire team of them, and nothing else, you're probably not going to win.

I've lost count of the number of times my team has been redlined, and come back to win the day. On the really bad times we had to clone out the opposing team, because our MCC was below half armor and the opposing team was at half shields. If we had tried to take the objectives, and win the "traditional" way, we would have lost. I've also been apart of a match where it was the same situation, but we DID take the objectives and "redlined" the enemy. The red dots would have one that match if they had just sat back behind the red line and waited us out, but they decided that the objectives were more important, and we cloned them out.

There isn't really an Out Of Game Area on the maps for that very reason. Situations change, sometimes drastically, in every battle and people need to learn to change with them. Nobody in this game should be forced into one particular playstyle. When things change during a fight, the INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS need to decide how to respond to it, not the system.

Suggestion:

Count being in MCC or Redzone as "not in game".

Reasoning:

I see many complaints on these forums about AFK farming and Redzone Snipers. I think both could be prevented by simply not counting players who are in the MCC or Redzone as participating in the match. Either get out there and fight, or don't get rewarded.

Possible problems:

When a team is "redzoned", one could argue that you're then forced into kamikaze just to get rewards. On the other hand, does it make sense to get rewarded for giving up? (even if you are sniping the enemy, if you're not leaving the redzone you won't be getting objectives...)

Kills made from redzone: sometimes you will make a legitimate kill from the redzone, especially when on a redzoned team. Not counting those would be harsh. But, sniping from redzone for most of the match and then popping out for a minute to make sure your kills count shouldn't be rewarded. Not really sure how to solve this problem, so any ideas are welcome :)

As I have said elsewhere, redline sniping while annoying is a perfectly legitimate playstyle. And to be quite honest most of the ideas I see being proposed to deal with it will just cause further problems, which will also have to be addressed and likely leave us with a complicated and stupid system. It'd be better to carry on with what we've got and fix problems like hitboxes that can affect countersniping

Which is why I agree that legitimate red zone kills should count. This could (just one idea) be realised by counting kills when no objective are held.

Yes of course they are. Because they are practically invincible there... I'm fine with snipers finding a good spot and having some other players protect them. Snipers sitting in an area I can't reach at all, nope....

I understand that that is a tactic. I happen to think it's a crappy one (can't win the game... I'll just sit in a safe zone and snipe the other team to death... yay, fun). Also, if the other team aren't idiots, they'll see the clone count dropping and be careful. If not, then you could probably beat them fairly as well.

Yet I am forced into a particular playstyle by the system. I am forced to accept that someone can snipe me from a place I can't reach because of an imaginary line created by the system. I'm also forced to accept that fellow mercs who get paid as well don't risk anything (or even do anything for that matter).

Is it? Why?

No. You are in-game the moment you deploy a dropsuit, and are capable of firing a weapon.




Some people may AFK farm, but some people may have a legitimate situation they need to handle in real life at that very moment. Since they shouldn't have to lose a clone for that, they can run into the safety of their base within red zone, and go take care of it.
"Redzone Sniping" is a legitimate tactic and common sense on YOUR end can stop or prevent it, just like every other form of sniping. Here are some pro tips:
1. Stop foolishly exposing yourself on the red zone, which is the same as walking around in the open in enemy territory.
2. Take cover either near an objective or within armor.
3. Grab a sniper rifle, and counter snipe the offending sniper.
4. Coordinate with a team mate to fly a dropship into the enemy red zone, on a hit and run mission. Fly in, deploy, kill offending targets, and extract yourself before the red zone avenges them.




Well done. You just produced the primary counter to your own argument.
No one is getting "rewarded for giving up". They are getting rewarded for participation, which they tried to do, and ended up getting red lined. They can either go ahead and cut their losses, and receive their pay for a good attempt (which is good for you, because you lose nothing when they don't attack), or we can say, "Begun, the Clone War has..." and the skirmish can turn into a 'race-against-the-MCC' ambush match. This all depends on the conditions leading to that team getting red lined. If conditions do not merit suiciding for an objective, and the clone counts indicate impending doom, then don't expect people to stick their heads out. You are facing human beings, not NPCs which are programmed to allow themselves to be killed by you.

A sniper kill from the redline is just as legit as a kill from any other weapon from the redline. Your inability to flank him with a close-range weapon does not change this.

Okay, full disclosure, I don't like the redline. No, I take that back...I DESPISE the redline. I despise anything that creates an artificial "frontline" that PLAYERS can't control. That being said, I'm against forcing MORE artificial rules on the battlefield. This isn't supposed to be an E-Sport, this isn't supposed to be a MOBA, it's supposed to be an FPSMMORPG. If it was advertised as being a MOBA, I would accept your (and others) ideas on making things "fair". But since it's not, I will say "Welcome to New Eden". A place where BALANCE is essential, but "fairness", "fair play", and "equality" are checked at the door.



It has nothing to do with invincibility, that's a bug that's being looked into. It has to do with Line Of Sight and current map setups. If there is a place where a sniper can see, and affect, a good portion of the battlefield, then that's where they're going to be. If that happens to be behind the redline, that's not the snipers fault. They didn't choose to put it there, they're just taking advantage of it. And again, I hate the redline, but if you want to reach a sniper, pick up a sniper rifle. There are places on maps, usually in the center, where there is a tall building that can only be reached by dropship. People get on these buildings all the time create a similar situation as "redline sniping". You can only get to them if you have a dropship yourself (which most people don't), and they are out of range for any weapon BUT a sniper rifle. I don't get angry at these people, I commend them for thinking outside of the box and taking advantage of terrian.



The objective of any match is to win. Period. How that is accomplished is up to the teams on ground at the time. You may not like their tactics, but you can't deny that they are effective. I might think shooting people in the back is a "crappy tactic", but that's not gonna stop the Shotty-Scout turning my skull to mush. And yes, if the other team is paying attention, they'll pull back so as not to get cloned out, but that makes it easier for your team to try and push forward. Remember, the tag line that this game has over anything else is: Risk Versus Reward. If the team you've redlined feels it's too risky to face you head on, they don't have to. It's up to you, after that, to figure out a way to counter their strategy.



Accepting that someone can snipe you at any time, from places beyond the range of your current weapon, is not a playstyle. Accepting that Mercs can get paid for "risking less" is not a playstyle. I'm a sniper, and the ONLY TIME I can go "anything/0" is when NOBODY SHOOTS BACK. Now the people who "aren't doing anything", I'm going to assume are Farmers, and that's another issue entirely. Personally I think it should be allowed. Ya it sucks, but it seems to be a form of griefing for Dust. And as this is New Eden, and griefing is allowed, it's just something we'll all have to get used to until they turn on Friendly Fire.

You make fair points, however I think they don't really address what I'm trying to say here. I think AFK'ing shouldn't be rewarded and I think that if you're playing the game you should be reachable by other players to kill. Even if you're a sniper. I think the redzone is not intended as a special place for snipers and/or people who want SP/ISK but don't want to play. None of what you've said counters that, I think.

you have no business being in your red zone except to spawn when there is no where else to spawn. I am quite ok with you getting nothing for being in the red line/MCC, that includes no kills. You got red lined?? well back up your team or if thats not helping the other team is too powerful and sneaking is the only way you are going to win the match, so find a way to sneak out and do something worth while.

It is legit because it does not take an unfair advantage from the game mechanics, the redline is there for a reason and that redline covers most of the best sniping spots on maps. Tell me what is the difference between redline sniping and sniping from a really tall building you can only reach with a dropship. And what you say about them not risking enough, it is their choice how much they risk, I'm a dropship pilot every time I call a dropship in, I put 450k isk at risk. If I decide not to call in a dropship 1 match dies that not mean I am limiting the amount of risk I expose myself too?

Then I will try to explain further.

First: Redline Sniping.

If he can shoot you, then can shoot him. Yes you might have to switch (or have someone on your team switch) to a sniper rifle, but it still holds true. In order for a sniper to be able to shoot at you, he must expose his position. Track him, kill him.

Second: AFK'ing

Yes it sucks to have people go AFK during a fight, but like I said, it's griefing. Griefing is a time honored (and often lamented) tradition in the universe of New Eden. But CCP isn't the type of company that puts limits on players. They have players police themselves. So, like I said, when they turn Friendly Fire on, things will change drastically for the Farmers out there. You won't have to worry about people going AFK, because if you see it (and know for certain that they ARE AFK, and not checking their map for an OB, or something) then feel free to shoot them and put an end to their farming. If they respawn, shoot them again. And then again, until you see that they actually are doing something, or they leave the match on their own. We don't need rules to make things "fair". We need the tools, and the space to play how we want, when we want. If they want to farm, then that's fine. I might want to TK that game. It's just the risk they take.

Ok, I see your point. I disagree because I do think it's abusing the mechanics. As said, I don't believe the redzone is meant to hide in. But, I haven't designed the game so I can't say for sure.

The difference between the tall building and the redzone is that both the sniper and myself would need to use a dropship to reach the building, whereas I can't go in the redzone while the sniper simply spawns there. Fair versus unfair, in my opinion.

Every activity has a risk involved. A sniper is usually less at risk even in a normal situation. Virtually eliminating that risk completely by (again, in my opinion) unintended use of a game mechanic is something completely different then choosing to risk expensive stuff with the chance of greater rewards. (current dropship risk/reward balance aside)

Because sometimes even taking the objectives isn't going to win you the match. You're too far behind, and all the enemy has to do is wait you out. The opnly way to win at that point is to "clone out" the other team. The best way to do that? Allow your team be redlined in order to create a "target rich environment". It might not be a clean win, but it's still a win. As I said, the teams on the ground at the time should decide "what's worth while", not the system.

Okay, seriously, stop using the word "fair". It has no place in New Eden.

Yes, a sniper risks less than the others who put themselves in the thick of the fighting, but they also gain less. Snipers can't take installations or Objectives. They can cover them, and prevent the enemy from taking them, but if they fail they have two choices: Come down from the mountain and take it abck, or wait for their team come over and take it back. So while you may see a sniper go 10/0, 15/0, of even the fabled 30/0 (which I've never see from a sniper in any of the games I've played by the way), the most WP's they're gonna earn is 1500 at 30/0. The ones who are down in the fight, and take objectives, an whatnot, are always the ones at the top of board a the end of the match. So they're earning more SP and more ISK than snipers. So ultimately, yes, it's a balanced trade off.

I don't fault anyone for doing it, because you'd be silly not to. I fault the game for supporting it. Again, the situation when redzoned is a possible issue with what I'm proposing. I've mentioned a number of solutions as well. Ultimately, I think a stationary shoot-out on an invisible line is daft, but if everyone really likes those then I'm just an exception I guess. I would prefer other viable options when redzoned. (Which usually there are, all it takes is one player circling around and hacking an objective/CRU or even dropping a mobile CRU and you can have the game going again. Might still not win, but you might have an actual enjoyable game...

This, right here, are most the reasons you don't (and shouldn't) further punish people when redzoned. One or two players thinking outside the box will help pull a team out of the redzone and back into the fight. The others, I've already mentioned but they all boil down to individual team strategies. The team decides that they can't win against an obviously superior force, so they decide to clone out behind the redline. Does that make that particular match fun? Probably not. Should it be allowed? Yes. Because that's their playstyle, that's what they want to do. They other team can adapt, or not, as they see fit.

You have to remember that enjoyability is subjective, so what you consider a fun and exciting fight, someone else considers boring and mundane. Because we've been there seen that on every other FPS. Or they think it's frustrating and stressful (seriously, they're there), so they start playing how THEY want to. The mechanics of the game are set up to reach the broadest player base possible for an FPS. It's set up so you can create what you want, and then play how you want. Everything in this game is geared toward that.

get rid of the red zone.

problem solved.

Peace
B

[
Ok, let's not call it "fair". Let's call it "logical". I think an artificial system protecting you outside the "new eden universe logic" is weird and doesn't suit new eden. Do you?

Yes snipers only get kills. However, if they get 20/0, they get 1000 WP (which in most PUB matches is somewhere at or near the top) and spend 0 isk (or do you lose the dropsuit you spawned in even if you don't die? I've never not died, so I don't know really...) Their SP/ISK gain wil be quite alright. And, they get huge KDR's which mean a lot to some people. You're almost making me feel sorry for the poor old snipers who can't get proper rewards... oh, no, you're not actually.

What I find interesting is that everyone here seems to focus on two things: what if you're redzoned and sniping from an unreachable place is legit. Let's play the "but this is New Eden!!!1" card then:

If you're redzoned, you suck and deserve to be obliterated without rewards. If you're in the game, you should be reachable by anyone and everyone should be able to kill you. All this artificial protection of bad players and cowards has no place in New Eden.

I've already said that I hate the Redline. But hating the redline and suggesting that people people should be punished just for occupying it, are two different things. We can't see our own redline (the one everyone complains about), so unless you've suddied the maps you'll never know if you're outside of it at all. Yes, that's an easy fix, but the way I see it is that it's a solution without a problem. Most of the time, when a team gets redlined, it's game over. As I've said earlier that's not always true, but it's true often enough that people have dedicated entire threads on how much it sucks to BE redlined. Adding more ontop of that is unneccessary. Even if you make it so that you get "legit kills" if you have no Objectives held is bad. Be cause what if you do take an objective? Yes, you can spawn on that if you die (assuming it's not Spawn Trapped, which is also a legitemate tactic). But the problem is; you have to die first. So your team mates take an objective, and suddenly your earning no points (even though you're STILL redlined), because you now have ONE objective. Why would I want to take objectives under those circumstances. I'm better off, once again, staying behind the redline, and cloning out the enemy team.

And yes, if snipers go 20/0 they will earn a good amount of SP and ISK. I pointed out the WP's because most of the time, snipers don't get that high. Most of the people earning the high rewards are assaut suits in the thick of the fighting. Which is how it should be.

And if someone's got a hardon for their KDR score, good for them. They'll soon learn that it's not that important in this game. New Eden is a harsh mistress.