I've already said that I hate the Redline. But hating the redline and suggesting that people people should be punished just for occupying it, are two different things. We can't see our own redline (the one everyone complains about), so unless you've suddied the maps you'll never know if you're outside of it at all. Yes, that's an easy fix, but the way I see it is that it's a solution without a problem. Most of the time, when a team gets redlined, it's game over. As I've said earlier that's not always true, but it's true often enough that people have dedicated entire threads on how much it sucks to BE redlined. Adding more ontop of that is unneccessary. Even if you make it so that you get "legit kills" if you have no Objectives held is bad. Be cause what if you do take an objective? Yes, you can spawn on that if you die (assuming it's not Spawn Trapped, which is also a legitemate tactic). But the problem is; you have to die first. So your team mates take an objective, and suddenly your earning no points (even though you're STILL redlined), because you now have ONE objective. Why would I want to take objectives under those circumstances. I'm better off, once again, staying behind the redline, and cloning out the enemy team.

And yes, if snipers go 20/0 they will earn a good amount of SP and ISK. I pointed out the WP's because most of the time, snipers don't get that high. Most of the people earning the high rewards are assaut suits in the thick of the fighting. Which is how it should be.

And if someone's got a hardon for their KDR score, good for them. They'll soon learn that it's not that important in this game. New Eden is a harsh mistress.

Wrong use of the "New Eden" card. This is New Eden, and I'm a Merc, if you stop paying me, I stop fighting. (That's not a player threat, that's just a little bit of Role Playing. Remember, this IS supposed to be an RPG).

So we agree on the whole "artificial protection" thing. Okay, cool, common ground.

Protecting "bad players". Are we talking inexperienced players here, or truly bad players. If they're inexperienced, then all you need is patience, they'll come around, get better, and start more aggressivley as time goes on. If you're talking about truly "bad" players, then no amount of rules or game mechanics is going to turn them into "good" players. Some people just suck at FPS games. There's nothing you can about that.

As for the coward comment, again, we're dealing with different play styles (assuming they're not just inexperienced, as stated above). You call them Cowards. I call them Scouts. Or Overwatch. Different Strokes for different folks.

Guess what?
This is precisely what the red line, and red line snipers enables.

Something has to kill you guys, to get you out of the f**king defending teams face first.

Ok, here's where things get tricky. See, right now, you're focused entirely on pub matches. Yes that's most of what we have right now, but it is far from the whole game. What about Corp Matches, and FW Matches. What about Corp Contracts in general. You see Corps have (or soon will have) the ability to set up their own contracts. I'm not entirely sure how this works, but I do know that if you're apart of a Corp that stops paying you for any reason, you're gonna leave that Corp. This might not sound like a terrible thing at first, and if it's what the Corp Heads want then they should absolutely do that. But if it's forced onto them, if they suddenly lose control of their Corp's ISK, and espescially if they suddenly have to pay the opposing team whether they want to or not, you're gonna have a whole bunch of really pissed off players. Because that's what they signed up for, to own and run their own Corp, to make universe changing decisions to things the way THEY want them to be done. Take that away, and you take away a good portion of makes the New Eden universe to begin with.

Everyone seems focused on Pub Matches, but they're not the game. And when they open up Planetary Conquest, no Corp is going to up with being forced into not paying their Mercs, or paying their opponents.

As for your new suggestion. Story, I'm a Merc. And I'm immortal. If they don't want to pay me that's fine. Just add in A PVE mission where I get to hunt them down and take what's owed me, and we'll call it good. Because, story wise, having a whole bunch of highly trained and well armed Mercs who feel that you owe them money is a bad thing. Since a lot probably won't care if they lost or not.

no this is not what red line snipers enable. when I am red lining a team and I only see snipers I cant reach the first thing I do is go look for where the other players might of gone.

and as far as your post about the poor sniper and how the assault AR fucks you, you can shove it, snipers are the least affected by AR Assaults, and that post is disingenuous, considering you ***** about having to go AR and then expect SMG/HMG/SG/SP/NK....... to switch to sniper to deal with, what is a broken mechanic.

no the redline is meant to provide a safe place to rally and attack not hide in you should get nothing for sitting in it. I certainly would never pay for a merc squad that used that tactic as it would lily result in the loss of that territory for me.

I have seen sniping used to great effect but not from the redline.

I have never seen a red line game go to clones except maybe for the team that is red lining. being red line is NEVER a tactical advantage you be come fish in a barrel.

most of the time its true because people give up when red lined not because they can't win. I dont think it should be made harder for them to win, but they shoul dget nothing for staying in the red line or there should be a way for force match end by capturing all points fighting through the enemy and capturing a point behind their mcc before they capture any other points.

and if you stop fighting for me i stop paying you. Get out of the red line and do something useful, the likely hood of winning a match is inversely proportional to the player hours spent in the red line.

you sit in the red line I don't want you in my corp. simple as that.

Apparently, this issue cannot be resolved with reason. lol

It's better to get rid of the red zone. Take it away. Bring things back to how they used to be.
After ONE day, I guarantee that these forums will be filled with much grief and lamentation, with people pleading to have the red zone brought back.

The complaint is with: "bad players". Changing the red zone, will not fix anything they do.
They will afk a whole match.
They will snipe, and not hit anyone.

That exists in nearly every shooter in existence.
So how is no red zone or a red zone penalty supposed to fix that?

lol these people don't care about the arbitrary sense of "honor" or "sportsmanship" that you guys think they SHOULD have. lol

Changing anything about the red zone won't fix one thing, and all you'd end up doing is removing or damaging a defensive tool for a team that really is trying it's best. lol

I said before, to try other play styles, and see how they fit into the current system, before recommending a systemic change.

The red zone was meant to prevent matches from breaking, by allowing people a place to fight from if they are losing, but if a whole team can use something for safety and buffer room, then a single individual can use it for that purpose as well.

Say there is at least one assault on an enemy team, or one squad, he/they does/do absolutely nothing else but dedicate himself/themselves to finding snipers and shooting them in the back, this is a legitimate strategy of course. These people care for nothing else, but finding snipers and shooting them in the back. They will put off grabbing an objective just to take a detour and kill the sniper, first.

Sniper hunters, as inefficient as they can make themselves, can be so dedicated to their craft that playing as a sniper in a match becomes nearly impractical.
Sniper flanking is a legitimate strategy, therefore a sniper placing himself in the red zone, to counter this is a legitimate strategy. Especially, if all other obscure perches have been compromised by sniper hunters. The penalty the sniper pays for this is reduced effectiveness at longer ranges. Majority of snipers have a difficult time hitting anything from the red zone, hence why so many red line snipers actually don't help their team. The sniper hunter's job was successful, and the enemy sniper's effectiveness to the match has been reduced. If there was no red zone, a sniper's role in a match on many maps, could potentially be completely eliminated.

Before you say, "well he should pick up an AR and make himself more useful", wouldn't that be 'forcing someone into a different playstyle'? The very thing that you say you detest?



You can taunt snipers that do this all you want, but you are killing them out of their element, with your playstyle. If your playstyle, running around the map with impunity, is not kept in balance, then the sniper's playstyle could potentially become obsolete. This has little to do with player tenacity, and everything to do with game mechanics.

A sniper has limited CQC capacity, and some have fittings where they have NO CQC capacity, they can adjust for an individual like this by pulling back to the red zone if absolutely necessary, and continuing to snipe.

On some maps, this may be necessary, especially if the sniper does not see fit to raise his costs further by trying to get to more obscure positions. He is the only class that can make use of the red zone tactically at will.

If a team is losing, there is the red zone. If an individual is losing, there is the red zone.
Asking a sniper to expose himself, is the same like asking a team to kamikaze on a red line. Especially, if you are free to actively look for him. Have you not seen this on any matches you played?

The sniper is doing what he can to participate, as circumstances allow.

I have. Several times in fact. I'm not saying that this is a regular occurance or anything, and it is situational at best. But several times when my team has been redlined, with no chance of winning even IF we capture all the objectives, we've been able to clone out the opposing team. Last time it happened, we had like one or two points of armor left on our MCC, and four clones. They had still had a few points of Shields left, and when they redlined us they were twenty clones up.



Forcing a match end DOES make it harder for the redlined team to win, and will increase the likelyhood of players giving up. As will their inability to earn SP/ISK. If this game was being advertised as a MOBA, I wouldn't have a problem with any of these suggestions. But it's not. It's supposed to be an MMORPG, and as such, I think it should always be up to the players as to whether or not they continue with a battle. Stacking the system AGAINST a losing team, will make it so that almost as soon a one team is redlined, the game will be over. People will leave the match, because why would they take more of a risk with what will ultimately be less of a reward.



If you're the CEO or a director of a Corp, you should absolutely be able to do this. Stop paying your Mercs, if you so choose. What I'm against, is FORCING them to stop paying Mercs. This, for the most part, is also a problem stemming from the current SP gain mechanic. As people are still fighting from the redline, technically they ARE trying to do something useful. The ones that are actually doing nothing is another problem entirely, separate from the redline issue.



No one is arguing that people should be allowed to sit in the redzone and do nothing, we're arguing against the system PUNISHING them for being there. And if you don't want somebody in your Corp for ANY reason, I'm ok with that. I think that Corps should be allowed to police themselves. At all times, and in every way imaginable. I'm AGAINST a system that forces players, and Corps, to into a particular playstyle or strategy.

If they AFK the whole match and don't get credit for it, I'm fine with that.

If they snipe and not hit anyone, I'm fine with that.

These are, again, not the problems I'm suggesting to fix.

Suggestion:

Count being in MCC or Redzone as "not in game".

Reasoning:

I see many complaints on these forums about AFK farming and Redzone Snipers. I think both could be prevented by simply not counting players who are in the MCC or Redzone as participating in the match. Either get out there and fight, or don't get rewarded.

I don't care about "honor" or "sportsmanship". . .

And I'm not proposing to punish people for being in the mcc or redzone. I'm proposing not to reward people for sitting there without reason. That has nothing to do with play style or strategy, unless you call cheating a play style and afk'ing a strategy...

Quit retracting on the *points* you are trying to make, it doesn't reflect well you.

That much is obvious. You clearly haven't cooled down from my ruffling your feathers a bit last night.
I gave you a little . To let you know everything is cool.

Recommend you chill out before we both get banned.


My deliberately passionate debate against your points was not meant to anger.
Try to be a good sport about rubbing egos eh, OP?

I've bothered to even converse with you this long, and explain what I have, because I know anyone that bothers to post in these forums must really care about where the game is going.

I was simply communicating with theater.

Don't take yourself so seriously. You're starting to seem so concerned with trying to offend me, that you're fumbling over your own points. It's not necessary.

and if you stop fighting for me i stop paying you. Get out of the red line and do something useful, the likely hood of winning a match is inversely proportional to the player hours spent in the red line.