DUST Search - Your feelings on OHK's?

EternalRMG wrote:

Orin the Freak wrote:

I personally don't think OHK's should exist in this game, except in cases of people with very light shields/armor.

Being OHK'd by a tank/large turret is one thing... but bringing 150, 200, sometimes even 300k worth of gear onto the battlefield, just to be taken out instantly by a damage modded militia shotgun, or a sniper rifle, or even, if you're caught unprepared, an LAV, or melted in 1-2 seconds by a laser rifle...

I mean, honestly, it just seems cheap. I'm not even talking specifically about pub matches, this math just shouldn't ever add up. I guess maybe I'm off base, but if so, how do you justify it? I suppose you could argue physics, but whats the point of even upgrading shields/armor if you're still being offed by militia/cheaper gear before you even have a chance to react?

we could argue the cons of these weapons, shotgun you have to be at least 15 meters away to do any damage, etc. but the reality is, all the current skirmish maps are full of bottlenecks, those being the objectives. You have to take objectives to win the game. The moment you start hacking, the whole map knows where you are.

All it takes is one suicidal shotgunner to run past your backup and flatten you. free for him, ???k for you.

Now, hypotheticals aside, I say the higher tiers of dropsuits/modules should have a damage buffer to prevent OHK's. Two shots is ... acceptable, at least then you have some semblance of a chance to survive. perhaps give the prototype suits an emergency buffer? if you would be alpha'd, some kind of regulator kicks in to overload the shields? hell if I know. sounds OP as hell, I'm sure you fine lady's and gent's can think of something a little more balanced?

unless you're cool with being OHK'd, in which case, I guess I'll just go on raging alone over what I percieve to be a broken mechanic in a currency-based shooter.

Railguns
Forge Guns
Thale Snipers
Breach Shotguns , High Lvl Shotguns
Headshot Scrambler
Headshot Charge Sniper
My Lav

One hit kill you and its Fine why?
because a railgun shoots a charge that is as big as your head , if it hits you expect to die
same applies to forge guns
Thale Sniper is an officer weapon, rare , a sniper it deserves to be a OHK Weapon
Headshot Charge: The weapons fires so slow that you can affor to no OHK or the target runs away
Scrambler Pistol (breach variant) It requires a lot of skill to do that and it isnt easy because you only have 4 bullets
Shotguns they have tiny effective range, if you see them from afar they are dead because they dont have enought range and it is a freaking shotgun
My lav: If i run you over at 60KM/H you should die dont you think?

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Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:42:00 - [31] - Quote EternalRMG wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Think 1hk's are bad? Try being in a 500,000 isk drop ship with maxed skills and defenses but still being 1shot by a forge gun. that cost considerably less to say the least. No warning, only death :( try armor hardeners Try predicting a forge gun is about to be shot at your ship to activate a hardener.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:42:00 - [32] - Quote Jotun Hiem wrote: The only gun I really have a problem with at the moment is the militia shotgun. It's a bit too good for what it costs at the moment. The same could be said for all militia gear.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:45:00 - [33] - Quote I wasn't trying to take this conversation to vehicles. I think it's more important to balance infantry combat first, or at least alongside. That said, I feel the current dropships should be reworked to drop the gun turrets in favor of vastly more "tank" and be purely troop transport. I think that would serve the purpose more appropriately. Anyway, My point is, if this game is truly about affording the battlefield, and prices are a means of "balance", then why is it someone with a 5k or less dropsuit can one-shot a suit that costs over 200k? how is that balanced on ISK? I understand all the arguments here, and I'm not crying for a nerf really. However, I do like the sound of lowering ALL damages in this game, OR, raising all EHP (Effective Hit Points) of dropsuits. This should be a game more involved in tactics and teamwork than a game based around 1v1. That is also why I don't think the Heavy needs much work (if any). If you're talking proto vs. proto, I can see OHK's being a factor, or even Officer weapons. But when militia gear, like sniper rifles, shotguns, forge guns*, and grenades can do 4-500+ points of damage in one shot, that is extremely too much. I guess what I'm asking is for weapons and armor to be balanced vs. their own tier. Militia vs. militia, etc. I understand all dropsuits have the same base EHP (with shield/armor variants ATM) but each higher tier includes more slots and better cpu/pg to ideally allow for more EHP. I also get that damage mods are currently broken, and until they are fixed, balancing will be difficult. Vehicles are a different story. One I would prefer to leave for a different thread, if you fine people do not mind :)
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:49:00 - [34] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: This should be a game more involved in tactics and teamwork than a game based around 1v1. If you had a teammate with you, how the hell did a shotgunner ever get close enough to kill you in the first place? Believe it or not, using a shotgun takes far more tactics than using an AR. Edit: Militia sniper headshots, shotguns, getting gangbanged by 3 guys, tanks in pubs, sh*t spawning system, there's lots of "unfair" ways to die. Out of all of those, I'd say only the spawning system is actually unfair. There is a risk-reward system, but the risk isn't on the shotgunner. It's on you for choosing to bring out your fancy suit in a public match.
Kane Fyea Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 65	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:50:00 - [35] - Quote I've never been OSK'd by a sniper unless it was a headshot. And in that case it should be a OSK. Also shotguns should be a 1-2 shot kill simply because of range limitations.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 206	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:09:00 - [36] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: I wasn't trying to take this conversation to vehicles. I think it's more important to balance infantry combat first, or at least alongside. That said, I feel the current dropships should be reworked to drop the gun turrets in favor of vastly more "tank" and be purely troop transport. I think that would serve the purpose more appropriately. Anyway, My point is, if this game is truly about affording the battlefield, and prices are a means of "balance", then why is it someone with a 5k or less dropsuit can one-shot a suit that costs over 200k? how is that balanced on ISK? I understand all the arguments here, and I'm not crying for a nerf really. However, I do like the sound of lowering ALL damages in this game, OR, raising all EHP (Effective Hit Points) of dropsuits. This should be a game more involved in tactics and teamwork than a game based around 1v1. That is also why I don't think the Heavy needs much work (if any). If you're talking proto vs. proto, I can see OHK's being a factor, or even Officer weapons. But when militia gear, like sniper rifles, shotguns, forge guns*, and grenades can do 4-500+ points of damage in one shot, that is extremely too much. I guess what I'm asking is for weapons and armor to be balanced vs. their own tier. Militia vs. militia, etc. I understand all dropsuits have the same base EHP (with shield/armor variants ATM) but each higher tier includes more slots and better cpu/pg to ideally allow for more EHP. I also get that damage mods are currently broken, and until they are fixed, balancing will be difficult. Vehicles are a different story. One I would prefer to leave for a different thread, if you fine people do not mind :) i happen to agree w/ you Orin in some regards to OHK weapons. Only one i dont is the FG, mainly since it is AV, and if you do get OHK, it means it was a direct hit; or u have a scout suit. If you look at weapons like the SG, militia does ~30 per pellet, we 12 pellets fired i believe (not on so can't confirm on damage). That is 360 damage per shot assuming all hit; plus the damage multiplier if headshot, etc .... The problem becomes when people say, just dont let a SG get close. Well, essentially you are saying, " i shoudl be scared of a free suit w/o any SP invested, so im going to run w/ my 4mil SP invested suit". How is that balanced? Even if the SG is in its desired range, SP investment should mean something. I'd say, best thing is give the dropsuits the EHP bonuses back from E3; as that will definitely make leveling up suits even more desirable, and allow for different customizations
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:12:00 - [37] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: If you're talking proto vs. proto, I can see OHK's being a factor, or even Officer weapons. But when militia gear, like sniper rifles, shotguns, forge guns*, and grenades can do 4-500+ points of damage in one shot, that is extremely too much. Why do you have an asterisk next to Forge Guns? Genuinely curious.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:12:00 - [38] - Quote The OHK is the only strength of small railguns As far as crushing with vehicles, I have a better idea than adding heavy collision damage (also a replacement for collision damage period) Collision-based damage would go to a new "chassis" health stat to vehicles. Once the chassis health goes down all the way, the vehicle will break down, and someone will need to get out and manually repair the chassis. Exploding because you bumped something is pretty stupid.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 431	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:17:00 - [39] - Quote OHKs can and should happen. What would be the point of skilling into shotguns then?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:22:00 - [40] - Quote I would say the militia shotgun is too good for a bit some sort of drawback is needed though. As for everything else it feels rather fair.

gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 378	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:22:00 - [41] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: The OHK is the only strength of small railguns As far as crushing with vehicles, I have a better idea than adding heavy collision damage (also a replacement for collision damage period) Collision-based damage would go to a new "chassis" health stat to vehicles. Once the chassis health goes down all the way, the vehicle will break down, and someone will need to get out and manually repair the chassis. Exploding because you bumped something is pretty stupid. But how does it make sense that my dropship which weighs however many tons would get damaged from landing on someone, same thing apply's to HAV's as well. LAV's deserve the collision damage if only to stop matches from becoming demolitions derbies and AV heaven
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:25:00 - [42] - Quote gbghg wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: The OHK is the only strength of small railguns As far as crushing with vehicles, I have a better idea than adding heavy collision damage (also a replacement for collision damage period) Collision-based damage would go to a new "chassis" health stat to vehicles. Once the chassis health goes down all the way, the vehicle will break down, and someone will need to get out and manually repair the chassis. Exploding because you bumped something is pretty stupid. But how does it make sense that my dropship which weighs however many tons would get damaged from landing on someone, same thing apply's to HAV's as well. LAV's deserve the collision damage if only to stop matches from becoming demolitions derbies and AV heaven Simple. Give certain vehicles much more chassis HP than others, and base the damage on direction (landing directly on someone wouldn't do nearly as much damage as hitting someone head on)
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 00:03:00 - [43] - Quote Personally I hate OHK weapons; but I'm fine with certain OHK's like from big guns and headshots. However I'm pretty certain I've been OHK by smaller weapons without it being a headshot (at least I think when headshots happen you don't get the option to be revived?). The thing I really hate with this game though is getting cut down so fast by AR's & HMG's that I die and fall to the ground even though my armor & shields are visually only half depleted. Might as well be OHK.
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 212	Posted - 2013.02.24 00:29:00 - [44] - Quote once again some one bitches that his lack of situational awareness is OP. Things are fine the way they are tho I'd make the HMG more deadly.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2013.02.24 00:36:00 - [45] - Quote EternalRMG wrote: Orin the Freak wrote: I personally don't think OHK's should exist in this game, except in cases of people with very light shields/armor. Being OHK'd by a tank/large turret is one thing... but bringing 150, 200, sometimes even 300k worth of gear onto the battlefield, just to be taken out instantly by a damage modded militia shotgun, or a sniper rifle, or even, if you're caught unprepared, an LAV, or melted in 1-2 seconds by a laser rifle... I mean, honestly, it just seems cheap. I'm not even talking specifically about pub matches, this math just shouldn't ever add up. I guess maybe I'm off base, but if so, how do you justify it? I suppose you could argue physics, but whats the point of even upgrading shields/armor if you're still being offed by militia/cheaper gear before you even have a chance to react? we could argue the cons of these weapons, shotgun you have to be at least 15 meters away to do any damage, etc. but the reality is, all the current skirmish maps are full of bottlenecks, those being the objectives. You have to take objectives to win the game. The moment you start hacking, the whole map knows where you are. All it takes is one suicidal shotgunner to run past your backup and flatten you. free for him, ???k for you. Now, hypotheticals aside, I say the higher tiers of dropsuits/modules should have a damage buffer to prevent OHK's. Two shots is ... acceptable, at least then you have some semblance of a chance to survive. perhaps give the prototype suits an emergency buffer? if you would be alpha'd, some kind of regulator kicks in to overload the shields? hell if I know. sounds OP as hell, I'm sure you fine lady's and gent's can think of something a little more balanced? unless you're cool with being OHK'd, in which case, I guess I'll just go on raging alone over what I percieve to be a broken mechanic in a currency-based shooter. Railguns Forge Guns Thale Snipers Breach Shotguns , High Lvl Shotguns Headshot Scrambler Headshot Charge Sniper My Lav One hit kill you and its Fine why? because a railgun shoots a charge that is as big as your head , if it hits you expect to die same applies to forge guns Thale Sniper is an officer weapon, rare , a sniper it deserves to be a OHK Weapon Headshot Charge: The weapons fires so slow that you can affor to no OHK or the target runs away Scrambler Pistol (breach variant) It requires a lot of skill to do that and it isnt easy because you only have 4 bullets Shotguns they have tiny effective range, if you see them from afar they are dead because they dont have enought range and it is a freaking shotgun My lav: If i run you over at 60KM/H you should die dont you think? I have to agree with your assessment. OHKs are annoying but these are justified. Except maybe a headshot pistol but yeah....OHK here is justified.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 136	Posted - 2013.02.24 08:15:00 - [46] - Quote I think the current mode is fine. One hit kills are a standard. I would appreciate a different sound for a head shot to know that that is why i died so quickly. Lag is also a factor - why it seems we just barely got shot and died when the kid in Austria started shooting me in the US 3 seconds ago. I too would like the E3 buffs to the suits and believe that there should be some balancing that way. That being said a sniper today is just as effective against the most expensive armor we can produce. A rag tag group of rebels in militia gear can still take out a group of soldiers with OHK weapons, lucky shots, explosions, etc. This will be true of any progress in technology. There will always be a cheap answer to expensive stuff. 1million dollar pen that can write in space (zero gravity) US = pencil in Russia. C4 = IED Sniper = sniper AK47 = All the advanced assault weapons we have Shotgun of any type > any body armor protection up close and especially any exposed area Knife > bullet proof armor Shotty to the face > trumps all I know that is all present day situations and that this is a shooter thousands of years into the future so, yes there could be some protection, but the militia guy should still be able take out the most protected soldier some of the time. That being said, the beta has many problems that contribute to the OHK situation. Like the limited equipment, modules, terrain, etc. With things like perhaps armor hardeners for dropsuits that kick in automatically or dmg resistance modules and the like I think that the OHK situations will be lessened. I agree that weapons and gear should be on equal footing at the same levels and that higher tiered items should scale better to give higher tiers a 1up over lower tiers... something that is not done well in this game. Militia gear's chances of OHK should scale down when new equipment is used. However, I would also support Militia gear matches, controlled and uncontrolled matches like we will get with High, low, and null sec situations.
Sontie VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 95	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:03:00 - [47] - Quote Your entire corp is the equivalent of a OHKO to any match you're in... and you complain about the one or two deaths you do manage to suffer? Seriously? How much ISK do you have? What's you KDR? Please STFU. Editing to attempt to be less trolly. This is a game of hard or soft counters. Heavies should be OHKO'ed by their few counters in the few situations when they are counterable. Same goes for everyone else. squad of swarms and nades kill armor tanks. 2 bad mofo forge kill shield. sniper kills slow exposed characters or anyone with a lucky headshot, shotgun kills anyone it flanks (not that easy). AR kills anyone med to short range without good cover. MD kills anyone it has a better position on. Heavy kills people in front of it who don't los it and run. laser kills anyone at long range who doesnt have cover. LAV's kill people with little situational awareness and exposed heavies (why are you not in a free LAV?). sidearms are sidearms, if you get killed by one, they are better than you. Knives can one shot anyone with a LOT of skills invested, but it's really freaking hard to knife people. really. freaking. hard. Dropships suck, but thats the price to pay for beings the aerial cru. makes running defense really hard. Am I forgetting anything? Missile turrets are UP. This is a game meant to be balanced on the Strategic level, team v team, not 1 v 1. You can't solo every single person. That is good. Lose to anyone other than imperfects and then you can complain.
Sextus Hardcock Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2013.02.24 15:33:00 - [48] - Quote I agree with you Orin in that I'd like to see more EHP for all suits. It would tilt the game a little more towards tactics and a little away from twitch.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 92	Posted - 2013.02.24 15:46:00 - [49] - Quote Sextus Hardcock wrote: I agree with you Orin in that I'd like to see more EHP for all suits. It would tilt the game a little more towards tactics and a little away from twitch. The game was like this when I first started. A lot of people running up, emptying magazine, circling around each other, reloading, emptying another magazine, jumping up and down, reloading again, finally one person dies. Really, it wasn't even slightly fun. And it looked ridiculous.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:17:00 - [50] - Quote Don't like getting OHKilled? Switch to fatsuit.

Grimmiers ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:17:00 - [51] - Quote I'd rather have various senses of danger on the field and a better flow for combat
Sextus Hardcock Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:18:00 - [52] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Sextus Hardcock wrote: I agree with you Orin in that I'd like to see more EHP for all suits. It would tilt the game a little more towards tactics and a little away from twitch. The game was like this when I first started. A lot of people running up, emptying magazine, circling around each other, reloading, emptying another magazine, jumping up and down, reloading again, finally one person dies. Really, it wasn't even slightly fun. And it looked ridiculous. I agree that sounds stupid, and I wouldn't want that much of an EHP increase, perhaps 15% or so.
Free Killing Universal Allies Inc. 2	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:19:00 - [53] - Quote Knarf Black wrote: Don't like getting OHKilled? Switch to fatsuit. my forge gun my lav my railguns can OHK you so you arent safe in there either try tanks if you dont want to be OHK
Free Killing Universal Allies Inc. 2	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:20:00 - [54] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: EternalRMG wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Think 1hk's are bad? Try being in a 500,000 isk drop ship with maxed skills and defenses but still being 1shot by a forge gun. that cost considerably less to say the least. No warning, only death :( try armor hardeners Try predicting a forge gun is about to be shot at your ship to activate a hardener. haven them on at all times coold down is just of 10 secs
Dao Ferret BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2013.02.24 16:32:00 - [55] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: I wasn't trying to take this conversation to vehicles. I think it's more important to balance infantry combat first, or at least alongside. That said, I feel the current dropships should be reworked to drop the gun turrets in favor of vastly more "tank" and be purely troop transport. I think that would serve the purpose more appropriately. ... Actually ... I know it would be counter to EvE (and Dropsuits), but it would be interesting if turret clots could optionally be used for hardeners. So you had a choice, "more tank" or "more turret". Of course, my guess is that CCP will introduce more vehicles/classes.
Robert Brady III L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 4	Posted - 2013.02.24 18:17:00 - [56] - Quote Sextus Hardcock wrote: Disturbingly Bored wrote: Sextus Hardcock wrote: I agree with you Orin in that I'd like to see more EHP for all suits. It would tilt the game a little more towards tactics and a little away from twitch. The game was like this when I first started. A lot of people running up, emptying magazine, circling around each other, reloading, emptying another magazine, jumping up and down, reloading again, finally one person dies. Really, it wasn't even slightly fun. And it looked ridiculous. I agree that sounds stupid, and I wouldn't want that much of an EHP increase, perhaps 15% or so. I feel that this game already pretty far separated from the twitch shooter. Very few instances, mainly just low SP suits, are even close to twitch gameplay. I watch many people who are good at the twitch game, suffer greatly because their opponent doesn't go down in just a few rounds, and they lose the fight due to poor tactical thinking. As far as the EHP goes, I think they found a pretty good balance with between the earlier builds and now. As was stated, we would circle strafe and jump and circle strafe and jump to the point of ridiculousness. Think about what those small % would mean though. It is fairly easy to fit the more advanced suits to over 1k EHP, hell, I even run a Type 1 with over 600. If you adjusted 15% that would be the equivalent of adding more than half a militia suit to your EHP. When new players already need to unload almost a full magazine, at optimal range, with a few headshots thrown in there, to even hope of bringing down Advanced suits, imagine what that HP increase would do to new players. I feel that the balance they have struck right now between HP and damage is pretty good, especially compared to the builds 9 months ago.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 132	Posted - 2013.02.27 01:57:00 - [57] - Quote I think there is a world of difference between OHK weapons in general and OHK with no warning. For example a good SR will kill half way across the map with no warning - now that's frustrating. A shotgun does not kill without a warning - if you have to close in over an open range with a shotgun - you are no longer OHK w/o a warning with no chance for the oponent to retaliate - you only shift this opportunity to retaliate with fire forward in time. The person with AR technically has the right of the first shot in this duel. If you let the shotgunner get in w/o using ur 'first shot privelege' by not noticing the SG guy or if you let them ambush you turning carelessly around the corner, it's fair. As far as cost consideration goes - this argument can be twisted many ways. Is it ok for an advanced tank go 30/0 in a game - is this cost fare? Is it fair for a Duvole AR to go 20/3 in game, cost wise? Is it fare that a scout suit gets droped from 1/4 of an AR clip? If you are risking your 300k suit, anything goes, because you can do 85% of the same stuff with your 50k suit and there fore the game is not forcing you to risk so much isk while letting a SG/ Sniper/ w/e OHK oponent off the hook isk price wise. Also, that cheap scout died 4 times before OHK that expensive suit - so money wise it would still kinda work out.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 254	Posted - 2013.02.27 02:04:00 - [58] - Quote I'm wondering how those guys who are buying the AUR prototype suits feel about shotguns
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 122	Posted - 2013.02.27 02:21:00 - [59] - Quote Thale with all dmg mods and full sniper skills getting a head shot. That should OHK. It's expensive, and it takes a fair amount of SP to use. Removing all OHK weapons or reducing the damage weapons do makes the game even more about gear than it already is. If there's a sniper, stay under cover. Get a counter sniper or something.
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 436	Posted - 2013.02.27 02:59:00 - [60] - Quote if you OHK yourself with a MD in the MCC it can sometimes kill an AFKer so i'm kinda ok with it



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