DUST Search - Memo to those wanting a Heavy/HMG nerf. (and to Devs considering it)

Sentient Archon wrote:

I have been a beta tester for almost a year now and I have been playing this game, welp almost everyday. In this past one year this game has come a long way. A lot of good has happened but a lot of bad has happened too!

One of the things I want to talk about is CCPs approach to overnerfing. While this may work in the Eve world, it does not leave a very good taste in the Dust world. For example;- the variants of the AR are absolutely useless. Why have these weapons in the market when they are of no use whatsoever. Another example is the Militia AR. It is OP as hell. It is the most accurate and powerful weapon this game has to offer. Why should we even bother skilling into proto ARs when all you need is a militia AR. FPS shooter games is all about the smoothness of the game which includes straffing. The straffing speed should be increased and based on the type of suit you run. Unfortunately to fix the bug of the hit detection CCP reduced the straffing speed which was more of a band aid than a fix.

And talking about band aids;- most of the fixes CCP has brought in so far are band aids. While it helps elliviate one problem it creates 2 other problems in the end. So what has been happening here is that for every one step CCP takes forward, it has been taking 2 steps back. For example;- just because a couple of cry babies were getting squished you brught about a 100% environmental damage to dropships when this could have been addressed by either reducing the dropship environmental damage to 50% or getting those cry babies to use AV grenades. Heck I have taken out dropships with AV grenades and MDs when they were flying low.

We still dont have a clue where Dust is headed. All we have is CCP fanboyism saying "its a beta" or "SoonGäó". Where are we headed with Dust? What are CCP's milestones with Dust (if any)? I raised the topic about how communication was bad between CCP and the gamers and we still see that it is getting worse instead of improving. I cant figure out why in todays patch CCP decided to change the squad mechanics when there are loads of other problems that need to be fixed.

Can we please get the Dust milestones and some better communication from CCP? Y'all have come a long way but can we please get the basics fixed?

Edit: Snipped troll bait - ISD Suvetar

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mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2013.02.19 18:58:00 - [1] - Quote Full Disclosure: I have an alt that is a heavy, so I speak from experience, BUT my main is an assault. After looking through countless threads and posts on why ppl think the HMG should be nerfed, here is my opinion directed at those that are "pro-nerf" HMG is fine. PERHAPS it can use a MAX of a 5-10% range nerf, but that's it. Keep the heat build-up as is. The Heavy is a high HP, but very slow player, with an HMG that is EXTREMELY deadly in CQC, and only moderately good at mid-range engagements. Medium-Long engagements he is useless. His high DPS and high HP, make him deadly in CQC, but his slow speed is a MAJOR handicap when trying to traverse the larger maps. It allows others to run away or if they decide to engage, they can "stick and move", if they see a heavy going after them from a closer range. Generally speaking, if he's caught out in the open... he's dead. Right now, he's working as intended. If you nerf his range by any substantial amount, he becomes a CQC-ONLY character, is COMPLETELY useless in every other aspect. At least now, he can somewhat defend himself in the medium ranges. His suit is TOO expensive for him to be "pigeon-holed" into such a narrow use. Here is the problem that the "pro-nerfers" have. They typically think they should be able to 1v1 a heavy. Guess what, a simarly skilled heavy, using similar level gear, will smoke you 9/10 times in your assault suit, logi suit, etc. The only chance you have, is a scout with a shotty. The pro-nerfer will scream that this isn't fair! It is, because the Heavy's fit, costs twice as much as most other comparable suit-classes. The problem isn't the power of the fit, it's that you are engaging the heavy in a 1v1, in their strongest scenario (cqc) What players need to do is focus on sticking to THEIR classes strengths, which tend to be weakness for the Heavy class. 1. Flank (most heavies can be killed if caught from behind, and your aim is decent) 2. Double or Triple team (they're easy kills when you concentrate fire, especially from multiple directions) 3. Engage from medium long destances 4. Use speed (scouts can easily stick and move, and even get behind a heavy, faster than they can turn around) 5 Grenades are your friend. (Heavies are more susceptible to grenades, because they have a harder time getting away, due to slower speed) Does that mean that I think there isn't a problem? NO, actually I DO think there is a problem. The problem isn't with the heavy specifically, but with the maps. The Heavy's strength is CQC, most maps, even the larger maps, require you to attack/defend objectives in order to win. Most of those objectives are in enclosed areas, or areas in tight/confined spaces, like hallways, or areas with walls and boxes surrounding the objective. This creates a CQC environment around almost EVERY objective. Even on bigger maps, with wide open areas, most (but not all) of the objectives are in CQC areas. This means that every player going for an objective, has to travel into the Heavy's advantageous area. My advice to CCP is to simply make a few more maps. Ideally, ones where at least HALF the objectives are in the middle of a wide open field/area that would allow for more medium or medium-long range gun fights. This would put the Heavy at more of a disadvantage...at least in those objective. TLDR: Tough. Pop some Ritalin and read it.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:01:00 - [2] - Quote True. Just bring back straffing speeds for Scouts and everything will be fixed. My alt runs a scout with an AR and I never loose a battle to a heavy when I get a drop on him. If the straffing speed was fixed, I could take a heavy head on.
Fornacis Fairchild Kat 5 Kaos 25	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:05:00 - [3] - Quote This toon is AR / LogiBro, and I made a Heavy toon over the weekend to mess around in....first of all I hate it because I feel like i'm losing my gungame. Second I hate it because it's damn slow and all it takes is the enemy with half a brain to run out of my bullet hose. Third I hate it because I need full stamina it seems to jump over pipes and stuff on the ground. Maybe I just suck because I've been owned by plenty of them, but I pick myself up and come back in. The problem is the player....too many kids are damn lazy to learn from an experience and improve their game play. This leads to nerfs and a watered down game that soon dies. It's the age of self entitlement....
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:07:00 - [4] - Quote I don't think they need a nerf, learn to not run face first into them and live. This isn't a guy running with an M60 in other games where it's "equal ground." This is a personal tank and must be treated as such. You can take them down if you're smart and not kamikaze-I-have-a-proto-assault-suit-so-I'll-survive.
usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:08:00 - [5] - Quote HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is.
BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:11:00 - [6] - Quote TL:DR "pro-nerfers" need to stop playing LOL COD TDM Ambush. DUST 514's end game will not be LOL COD TDM Ambush.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:13:00 - [7] - Quote BMSTUBBY wrote: TL:DR "pro-nerfers" need to stop playing LOL COD TDM Ambush. DUST 514's end game will not be LOL COD TDM Ambush. I really like the balance right now and hope things don't get nerfed again.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:13:00 - [8] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is. You're delusional. Adding a fire delay to any close quarters weapon is the quickest way to kill it. And it deals slightly less DPS than the AR, so take your insta-kill BS elsewhere.
Kriegs son Jaeger Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 5	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:18:00 - [9] - Quote Ultimately the best comparison I can think of that most people can relate to is team fortress. Sentinel is the heavy. Do not expect to run headlong into a heavy's line of fire and get hosed down with bullets for a winning scenario. Ironically I think heavies would be far less effective if people actually had the intelligence to run away from the heavy or seek cover, and then focus fire with one or more people. A stock AR can easily take down a heavy who isn't paying attention or is caught in the open.
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming 642	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:25:00 - [10] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: OP You speak too much logic for this place. People won't be happy till the HMG is useless. Like I read some clown saying to add a spool time?...oh boy I say if they want to nerf range, fine, but decrease the spread in CQC. How about buffing the suits if they going to nerf the gun? No? How about just getting rid of all classes minus the Assault class + AR... I think that's what most people want anyway.

Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote More effective than a scout is an assault suit with a shotty. They aren't as squishy and can move just as fast with the right skills and mods.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.19 19:26:00 - [12] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is. They have enough bullet spread at a range, these aren't automatic shotguns for Christ's sake. If you read the description for the weapon, then you would know that the HMG is designed to not have spool up time, and adding one would make it almost completely useless in CQC... and at a range amusingly enough. HMG's shine in CQC, that doesn't make them CQC only weapons. People need to stop trying to turn them into that. At a range, the best they can do is provide cover fire. That's all they are at a range, a scare tactic. If a guy is standing still, then he would have botten gunned down by any number of things. EDIT: Most people also seem to not read the tips on the loading screens. They very clearly tell you to avoid engaging with an opponent who can out-gun you, unless you have back up. CCP does not expect, or want, you to solo everybody. This is a squad/team based game, learn to play.
Fargen Icehole SyNergy Gaming 67	Posted - 2013.02.19 23:18:00 - [13] - Quote OP: Couldn't have said it better myself.
Barnabas Wrex Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 148	Posted - 2013.02.19 23:27:00 - [14] - Quote I agree. People like to shout "OP!" at the HMG heavy because they are a walking turret once they get to an objective. HOWEVER they have to get to that objective in the first place over long distances, in which they are prone to being obliterated. If a heavy HMG gunner is at an objective they are in their most deadly environment. That's what the class was made to be! You don't see heavies shouting OP at assault fits that obliterate them in the open, in between objectives; because heavies have an easier way of seeing their limitations, they're slow as ****.
CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.02.19 23:34:00 - [15] - Quote The heavy HMG is fine and needs no nerf.It can be ran over,forged(which are militia now)sniped,and mass drived,grenaded.Yes it owns in the short range.People should just think as heavies as campers thats all they really can do.Heavies in and around objectives are right where they need to be.Getting there is bad news for the heavy because in the middle ground they are at a sever disadvantage. I think one more thing that hasnt been mentioned in the thread is the HMGs reload time........ Heavies are fine the way they are and it would be a shame to mess with them.There mechanics are solid.It cost more to run heavy. I have Nova knifed and melee d heavies.They are fine the way they are CCP
mini rehak The Southern Legion 22	Posted - 2013.02.19 23:35:00 - [16] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is. WOW while your at it why don't you make it shoot marshmallows
Alejandro Pereira Universal Allies Inc. 12	Posted - 2013.02.19 23:45:00 - [17] - Quote Personally enough with the Nerf bat. This game has more to do about skills and tactics than OP fits, installations and vehicles. A decent player can take on most suits and yes even vehicles using a STOCK suit of whatever choice they desire and win. there are exceptions. But each object is serving its role appropriately. Some, in my belief, are underpowered for what they are. EVERYONE needs to take off the wet dress and dry up. My god man, You don't run up to someone firing 25MM chain gun with a fishing boat and juiced up motor and tell them they are OP!! (Think Somali Pirates. I'm sure that you all can think of other instances of this case) If you want to have equality and fair play figure out a way to admit X amount of X type suits/equipment etc, that cant be added again until its destroyed. Failing that, Brain storm better solutions be a solution and not a problem, put the damn bat away. OH , yes one more note. For every device man has created to kill another, solutions were created to work around that, some more effective than others.
Alejandro Pereira Universal Allies Inc. 12	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:14:00 - [18] - Quote This was taken from another post on the forum: Sentient Archon wrote: I have been a beta tester for almost a year now and I have been playing this game, welp almost everyday. In this past one year this game has come a long way. A lot of good has happened but a lot of bad has happened too! One of the things I want to talk about is CCPs approach to overnerfing. While this may work in the Eve world, it does not leave a very good taste in the Dust world. For example;- the variants of the AR are absolutely useless. Why have these weapons in the market when they are of no use whatsoever. Another example is the Militia AR. It is OP as hell. It is the most accurate and powerful weapon this game has to offer. Why should we even bother skilling into proto ARs when all you need is a militia AR. FPS shooter games is all about the smoothness of the game which includes straffing. The straffing speed should be increased and based on the type of suit you run. Unfortunately to fix the bug of the hit detection CCP reduced the straffing speed which was more of a band aid than a fix. And talking about band aids;- most of the fixes CCP has brought in so far are band aids. While it helps elliviate one problem it creates 2 other problems in the end. So what has been happening here is that for every one step CCP takes forward, it has been taking 2 steps back. For example;- just because a couple of cry babies were getting squished you brught about a 100% environmental damage to dropships when this could have been addressed by either reducing the dropship environmental damage to 50% or getting those cry babies to use AV grenades. Heck I have taken out dropships with AV grenades and MDs when they were flying low. We still dont have a clue where Dust is headed. All we have is CCP fanboyism saying "its a beta" or "SoonGäó". Where are we headed with Dust? What are CCP's milestones with Dust (if any)? I raised the topic about how communication was bad between CCP and the gamers and we still see that it is getting worse instead of improving. I cant figure out why in todays patch CCP decided to change the squad mechanics when there are loads of other problems that need to be fixed. Can we please get the Dust milestones and some better communication from CCP? Y'all have come a long way but can we please get the basics fixed? Edit: Snipped troll bait - ISD Suvetar I would also endorse this as well if not as quoted at least in spirit as an EVE player as well
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:41:00 - [19] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is. Then GO!! heavy plus HMG since its so "OP"...LOL!! And I will teach you the ways of FOUR!!! complex damage mods on a Calas MK-33 SMG. Mano a mano heavy versus logi or scout suits or assault LOL. In a few weeks add me to contacts and lets do this just so I can see you send me hatemails full of heavy HMG QQ.
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:44:00 - [20] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: HMG is not fine it needs more bullet spread and a spool up time with reduced range, it will still be awesome anti infantry weapon without being the easypeasy instakill machine that it is. Omg. Have you ever looked at an hmg firing from the flank? The spread is insane. You are wrong.

Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2013.02.20 00:51:00 - [21] - Quote CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3 wrote: The heavy HMG is fine and needs no nerf.It can be ran over,forged(which are militia now)sniped,and mass drived,grenaded.Yes it owns in the short range.People should just think as heavies as campers thats all they really can do.Heavies in and around objectives are right where they need to be.Getting there is bad news for the heavy because in the middle ground they are at a sever disadvantage. I think one more thing that hasnt been mentioned in the thread is the HMGs reload time........ Heavies are fine the way they are and it would be a shame to mess with them.There mechanics are solid.It cost more to run heavy. I have Nova knifed and melee d heavies.They are fine the way they are CCP And no one mentioned the TEN SECOND overheat time and the press R1 and NOTHING! the gun refuses to shoot one out of every five times...lol! and the reach for the sky if the gun shoots longer than two seconds and the reduced scan ratio and the larger profile and the 3X skills that cost MILLIONS extra SP for being a heavy........
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.20 01:08:00 - [22] - Quote Simply put, if a Heavy isn't capable of wrecking ****, then it just isn't worth the SP and ISK investment. You don't see anyone complaining about the difference between a LAV and a HAV.
Zondervin Tau Reaper Galactic 10	Posted - 2013.02.20 01:10:00 - [23] - Quote I personally think heavies are fine right were they are. The biggest problem i have is that they make up like half the other team in a lot of my games lately. Keep heavies to 1 per squad and were all happy. Zon
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.20 01:13:00 - [24] - Quote Zondervin Tau wrote: The biggest problem i have is that they make up like half the other team in a lot of my games lately. Bust out the sniper rifle. Happy hunting!
Mad Mav Brotherhood ofthe Commissioned 22	Posted - 2013.02.20 01:17:00 - [25] - Quote As an Assault, the biggest problem I have is going around a corner then just getting splattered on the wall, but nothing I can really do about it besides ducking back. The ones whining are those that try to go head to head with it. They are meant to be tiny tanks. I believe they fit the bill pretty well.
CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.02.20 03:13:00 - [26] - Quote I just want to say one more thing in this thread and that is none of these Pro nerfers and OP whiners thinks about after they finish specializing in there preferred class.Whether that be assault,logi,heavy,or scout. They're quick to want CCP to hit everything else with the nerf hammer except there class.They never think about later when they want to cross class into another class. Right now I feel that each class has it own strength and weakness and merit and all are well balanced and fill different roles and later on being able to build multiple fits the player will be able to pick a fit thats needed in that moment that may turn the battle to there teams favor.It maybe a scout to setup an uplink make a few kills get hammered turn around spawn on your uplink heavy get over to the supply depot and get out your swarm/forge fit shoot at a drop ship.Switch off to your assault run to the next objective get hit by a tank.Spawn in the back with a militia starter cuz your gonna call in your tank.Call in your tank get the tank that killed you the spawn before but a heavy forge takes you out.Get a little pissed cuz you bail out and get the forge but get sniped so you spawn sniper. Thats what this game is all about....being a mercenary. Building your guy to be a go-to guy for ANY situation.Thats what makes this game kickass.The customization aspect.Asking CCP to nerf this and that only serves to make the game vanilla and generic in the long run.When you eat the same thing over and over again you get sick of it.Well Im sick of digesting page after page of QQ nerf threads.So please do us ALL a favor and shut the hell up. This public service announcement was brought to you by: The Committee for Non suck FPS games
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.02.20 03:18:00 - [27] - Quote Mad Mav wrote: As an Assault, the biggest problem I have is going around a corner then just getting splattered on the wall, but nothing I can really do about it besides ducking back. The ones whining are those that try to go head to head with it. They are meant to be tiny tanks. I believe they fit the bill pretty well. Even now if an assault and a heavy begin firing at each other and both have equivalent gear and skills, the assault will die, but the heavy will be left with very low armor. The next chump will get an easy kill. IMO, heavies could use a buff. We are already at a point where we can be beaten 1v1. Laser rifles melt us in seconds and light damage mods aren't even working with the weapon AFAIK. I don't even want to think about proto LRs with stacked complex damage mods. I might just be wasting SP by choosing this role, but it's what I wanted long before the cries of "OP!" were heard. - You nerf heavies in any way, you nerf them all. The enemy team, random teammates, and corp mates alike. We will be completely useless and unable to fill our role in New Eden.
undeadsoldier90 UnReaL. 114	Posted - 2013.02.20 03:25:00 - [28] - Quote Idk what you people are saying that heavies suck at range. I own people at medium and long range. Sharp shooter lvl 5 is a heavies friend. Although it tightens your cqc spread its worth it.
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 24	Posted - 2013.02.20 03:32:00 - [29] - Quote I solo hmg's all the time. I simply carefully look around a corner, If a heavy is close, I run, if he follows, I get to max range and unload into him. By the time they realize they are losing badly they can get away from my AR fast enough. If you turn a corner and are face to face with one, run past them, turn around and run in circles around them at point blank range. No nerf needed, just got to stay calm, most newberries panic and cry wolf (nerf).
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2013.02.20 03:39:00 - [30] - Quote proto heavy needs buff, other heavies seem fine. HMG is working as intended, for realism range should be much longer but is pre-nerfed for balance. I play assault and see heavies as easy targets for ar when I'm at right range. The spread is horrible, I can see the tracer go to all sides of me and hits do almost no damage as the shield and armour drop fast on the heavy. Very good strafing and tactics can kill a hmg at close range, if you are lucky. The hmg vs ar vs lr balance is good right now, people just are using ar at to close of range vs heavy. Ar works at all ranges well, hmg is better at close and worse at longer end of range. Laser is only good at long side of range. All three have about the same range, they just work best in different parts of it. I play assault and scout, plan to use logi in future, used heavy before but not my style. Much easier to hunt heavies and snipers for kdr then play either for me. You just have to understand the right time to engage or not engage. Sharpshooter does help range of hmg, but it also helps range of ar. So, maxed sharpshooter hmg vs ar with no sharpshooter could work at range, but fight a ar with same ranks of sharpshooter at range it will go to ar. Same with weaponry and ar proficiency on a ar vs hmg with non-damage skills at close range, ar will do more damage since they spec'ed different, equal skill(gun game and sp) and hmg will win in cqc.



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