#1 because its extremely effective up to 60m and is still quite effective outside of that probably up to 90m
most engagements occur within 45m so they dominate everything they encounter.

HMG

I only have two things to say ;

Range, and bullet spread. Everything else i can live with.

- A HMG shouldn't have the same range as an AR, that is ridiculous.

- No bullet spread what so ever ? in such a powerful gun ?

Shotgun

only one thing :

Damage type.

- I'm ok with the shotgun destroying armor in one shoot, but it should NOT eat through your shields in one shoot too. The damage to the shields should be allot least, than the damage to the armor.

You really don't know what you're talking about newberry.

You mean "Newberry", as for i don't agree with every ridiculous OP idea, that you EvE online fans have ?

Everything is OP this... and OP that with you guys....

Fine... I'm a newberry then. Just carry on like this, and calling some one a " Newberry" is going to be a compliment.

On the HMG i would argue, Yes... it is overpowered but in a lot of small ways

reasons why

#1 because its extremely effective up to 60m and is still quite effective outside of that probably up to 90m
most engagements occur within 45m so they dominate everything they encounter.

#2 it gets more accurate as you fire it, most games as you hip fire anything it gets less accurate, some may argue that it has a gyro or your adjusting to recoil or some nonsense, this is a pointless argument because its a game and balance is more important than "whats in real life" im sure if we had "laserguns" as some of these guns seem to be then in real life that AR would probably have no kick, and have almost an infinite range.

#3 they have no clear counter, any smart heavy can cut down a scout shotty instantly so thats not a CLEAR counter
shotguns are outclassed by AR's, laser rifles, HMG's and mass drivers over more conventional distances...
the hmg is outclassed by nothing at conventional distances.

the weapons flaws

#1 poor accuracy... made up for with saturation AKA 2000 rounds per minute... accuracy doesnt matter

#2 heat up... ive tested this my self the lowest end HMG can go through the majority of its magazine before it overheats and that test was trying to get it to overheat.

#3 distance... the HMG is not intended for counter sniping people in the mountains so if thats what your trying then soemone isnt thinking right.

#4 bullet damage... wait your shooting 18 damage at 2000 rpm with a 450 round magazine... nevermind

#5 it makes you a target... you have a OP minigun of course that makes you a target... most people either run away or completely focus an entire group on you... duh

#6 reload time... it sucks, but you have 450 rounds theres your tradeoff.

can my play style counter it?

i run a level 3 assault with a duvolle assault rifle and play very team/tactical and no i can not counter a heavie unless its one of the many noobs who have militia heavies because they see heavies going 30-0 every game so more and more people are starting it out.

comparable usability

the SMG, is a super underpowered version of the HMG while still usable in some hands the smg is the same basic concept spray and pray but more praying and less killng. the smg is also the only other gun to somewhat resemble the hmg.

competing guns

the only weapon(s) that can clearly compete are the laser rifle because it forces you to distance yourself from your target and the sniper because it too can shoot accurately at distance which is the HMG's only weakness.

my solution

while many will not agree with me because some people somehow think the HMG is perfectly balanced, this is my opinion on what should happen...

#1 the hmg should have its Range slightly decreased to focus on its objective holding role not team slaying role.

#2 the hmg should have a slight damage decrease when shooting 2000 rpm 18 damage is devastating thats 36,000 damage per minute 600 damage per second a 3 second burst does 1,800 damage thats why the HMG also works as a AV weapon ocasionally.

#3 decreased accuracy as apposed to increased when shooting... come on, common sense

#4 maybe a way to theoretically bipod up or use a mount type system with it on any railing this would allow slightly more ranged use but would require you to be stationary.

#5 require teamwork... to often i see a lone heavy going 40-0 or 33-2 or 25-0 or whetever when if they were using something else theyd go 6-7 the class has no teamwork attributes and should not be rewarded for its lone wolf only role.

the shotgun is also a little weird but i dont feel like going through all this over agian so ill leave it with the heavies.

dont worry about my gramar because i dont care

dont hate.

Ok I'll try not to get too heated with this as most of the lads who know me know my stance on this subject

HMG,
A: No.
B: The HMG has been through a great deal of nerfs since I began last June when it really was an HMG. Since then the range has been decreased from 75m to 50m , RPM has been decreased from 3000 to 2000, damage for the basic HMG was decreased from 19 to 16 and heat buildup increased. I would also like to note that the current version has actually been buffed because in the last build the heat buildup was nearly 2x what it is now and the RPM was only 1500. So IMO the current version has been through the works and is actually pretty good balance wise. A lot of the Anti HMG comments came from the large influx of new players who haven't seen how much more effective higher end assault gear is than higher end heavy gear and were probably worried about a heavy fest later on, chill lads it's slowly balancing out
C: The weapons main flaw is part of it's strength being mounted on a heavy suit which means slow speed in all areas although high armour, no equipment slot so no spare ammo and very limited slots. I did find the fact that the spread get's tighter interesting however with the low damage, especially at range, it can actually work against you if you use the weapon in a area denial role as you can't keep the fire on enough people to hold them unless you control the choke point in the first place.
D: My play style can sometimes counter the weapons flaws by controlling the terrain I fight in however I am far from a hardcore gamer and the HMG allows me to fight effectively even though I'm tired from work and can't aim for toffee. So it also gives player who are new or have less than stellar reactions a viable option, this is why I feel the HMG kinda levels off a bit in the stat dept towards the high end gear so as to try and get the gamers to jump to something new when they find they're levelling off in the heavy area.
E: A good weapon to compare the HMG to would be the AR actually, it's fairly easy to use and does good damage I think 33 per shot??? so only about 20% less DPS compared to the HMG which can be easily buffed up to compete with it. The AR reloads and aims a lot quicker and can be mounted on a far more mobile suit which I think offsets the damage output of the HMG and there is a far better improvement of stats of the AR and Assault suits as you level up compared to heavy gear.
F: Ok the one weapon that really shines against the HMG is the Laser rifle hands down. I hate seeing that green beam of death swinging my way but it is very effective as like the HMG the longer it's fired the better it is (depending on situation) and considering the fact it can be mounted on even a scout gives it far more flexibility as an area denial weapon on open ground.
G: Erm wait and see what happens on the next update, as you could see the HMG wielding heavy become a dinosaur like the missile tank if it gets another nerf and with the new weapons coming out you may need that HMG even more than you thought???

SG,
A: No.
B: The SG does what it says on the tin, always has which is nice for a change. Also it gives people who want to be a speed class an effective weapon at close range but forces them to get close as well making the game more balanced.
C: The weapons main flaw is its range and mag capacity also the higher end versions don't offer much improvement over the basic models from what I have seen.
D: I need to be really in the zone to use this weapon and I don't really use it too often because of this but the guys who do are very good. The key is much like the HMG heavy, control the terrain don't fight in open ground where they can see you coming but use your head and flank or out pace your enemy.
E: A good weapon to compare the the SG with would be the Mass drive IMO. Mainly because you need to know it's limit's (SG range and MD it's arc and blast radius) also there's not much ammo for either weapons and while the MD is less specialised I think it's comparable.
F: AR is the best counter for a SG as you outrange him by miles have a big mag and higher DPS at range while still being in a fairly quick suit allowing you to keep up with the enemy.
G: As above wait till the update before asking for any sweeping changes as you might find the need for all of a weapons capabilities to counter a newer threat.

As you can see I do favour the HMG but trust me not nearly as much as my FG for tank killing. However I'm going to start skilling into Scout suits so I have a mobile fit for corp matches which are miles from pub matches where people come to you and you just mow them down with the HMG. In my latest corp fights I always find myself being outpaced by the other team and I think this is a trend which will continue into the pub matches as it did in the previous builds thus diminishing the role of the heavy, I know I'm using it less now.

Regards

Snag

This covers most of my thoughts, and as for what most people tends to say "is suppose to be like that" is just plain stupidity... now if it were stationary it would be a different thing...
i think if they made the the range and accuracy very low while moving ( would still be very effective at close range )and very high with a bipod would be a good balance...like it should be...

I wasent going to call you a newberrie but i was going to ask if you could elaborate on your feed back as i took the time to produce proper feed back on the HMG , as was requested by the op . If you wouldent mind good sir i would be greatfull .

Good man I wasent asking for you to form proper feed back as i could feel your intent all the way over hear in Scotland i was asking captain newberie for his proper feed back as i though i did the HMG justice you too have also done it justice , i started back last august and have seen some change to the HMG and would also agree its fine as is and working as intended . Its not our heavy asses fault that their is allot of rage quitters ( you know who you are ) out there who hate the HMG

The HMG dose suffer from barrel wander and it only gets worse as you skill up the HMG operation and capacity skill books becaus the longer you fire the more the barrel wanders because you have a greater mag and a longer burnout but as i said the longer you fire the biger the wander , as i mentiond about accuracy it only decreases your spread . you have to be good to keep it on a moving target for more than a second when in full sipn whic i also stated dosnt kick in untill you are half way through your burnout . The reason it gets more accurate if you need the lore is because the firing barrels spin in opposing directions therefore creationg greater centrafugal force directly to the center of the gun llowing a direct stream of lead but creating greater barrel wander .

Heh that's interesting I'm in Scotland too, ye musta bin feelin me from a wee touchy closer than ye thought lad!!!

I'm about 100 miles NW of Inverness without getting too specific. Keep in touch mate.

All the best,

Snag

Ok lets say i agree with the " Lore " .

Even if the firing barrels spins in opposing directions, to create better centrifugal force. That should theoretically, help to reduce the gun movement at full Rpm, making the HMG "possible " to control with high caliber ammunition, and high Rpm. Without the spinning barrels creating greater centrifugal force, the HMG will be impossible to control.

But all that, will not stop the backwards momentum from affecting the effective range, and accuracy of the HMG.

No, by damage per round, the HMG is firing a smaller round than the SMG, at twice the fire rate. It has just over twice the optimal range of the SMG so it's charge would be a bit larger. If an operator is able to fire the SMG easily then a massively armored dropsuit like the heavy would be well able to handle the HMG recoil.

And there aren't barrels spinning in different directions. There's a weighed collar that spins to create a counter gyroscopic force, that combined with the gyroscopic force of the barrel group makes it a very stable platform. In real life this collar would just prevent the tendency of the gun to slightly pull to one side at the start of firing.

Again in real life, infantry operated miniguns mostly operate off pintle mounts. Look up YouTube for any number of videos showing how stable and accurate this is.

Fair enough, this is not real life, so designs/changes don't necessarily have to follow physical laws as we know them.

As to peoples accusations of the heavy having pin point accuracy with massive range beyond the AR, create an alt character and try it out. You'll soon be eating your words. When a heavy might be wasting ammo and tickling you at long range, they might very well have a team mate tearing you up with an AR, but manage to get the killing shot. The HMG is useless at long range. One lad up above saying 80m. Come off it. Try the setup out first so ya don't have to pretend as to the facts. Yes, the assault version has a max range of 80m but it's cone of fire is massive at that range.

As to the OP wanting to know our thoughts on HMGs and SG, Snagman 313 puts it more or less as I think. Being lazy, I won't type it out again.

Ok... starting to see the concept.

Still, what about movement ? you are talking about lots of forces and counter forces involved in the HMG stability, surely any movement that is not rotational ( Forwards, backwards, left, right ), should have a significant impact in the HMG balance. If that is the case, HMG's should only be at "optimal" when standing still ( one foot in front the other position ).
A heavy dropsuit + all that forces that you just described, should create lots of instability and unbalance, when trying to move and shoot at the same time.

Ok... starting to see the concept.

Still, what about movement ? you are talking about lots of forces and counter forces involved in the HMG stability, surely any movement that is not rotational ( Forwards, backwards, left, right ), should have a significant impact in the HMG balance. If that is the case, HMG's should only be at "optimal" when standing still ( one foot in front the other position ).
A heavy dropsuit + all that forces that you just described, should create lots of instability and unbalance, when trying to move and shoot at the same time.

Yes and no. Trying to move forwards, backwards, left, right from the direction you're firing would be unrestricted as the plane that the force is being exerted on isn't being changed. Trying to tilt the gun up or down or twisting to the left or right etc., would be attempting to change the plane of force and therefore would be resisted. While still being very stable, more force than normal would be needed.

The fact is, this force makes the gun very accurate, but slow down movement as the force tries to keep the barrel group and collar in the same plane as they were when the spinning started. Ingame, moving the muzzle of the gun while firing is alot slower than when not firing so it kind of sticks to a semblance of RL physics. That's why it's easier for lighter suits to circle close to a heavy while it's firing but keep out of it's fire. Once us heavier stop firing we can track ye easily and commence the wall of lead trick

An easy trick to see this force for yourself is to get the front wheel off a bike. Prop one end of the axle on a shelf, table, etc., with the wheel vertical, and while holding the other end of the axle between your fingers, give the wheel a good fast spin. You'll now be able to lift the wheel up with with just your fingers on one side of the axle and nothing supporting it on the other. The gyroscopic force keeps it in the plane it started spinning in.

A demonstration from Youtube if you want. It nicely shows how the collar works too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrTw7EdyW9A

I believe you talking about "gyroscopic precession" which is left / right rotation, and up / down. In any other direction it would not apply any extra forces.

Fact is the Heavy HMG is meant to be an infantry killer and the Heavy Forge Gun a vehicle killer. If you nerf the range on the HMG it won't be an infantry killer.

The Heavy can do no support due to both having no equipment slots as well as having low speed.


Wrong. Max range is 60 meters and it does little more than no damage at 50-60 meters. Not to mention you'll be missing a lot of shots with the HMG at 50+ meters.

You really don't know what you're talking about newberry.

- A HMG shouldn't have the same range as an AR, that is ridiculous.

- No bullet spread what so ever ? in such a powerful gun ?

What's supposed to be a heavy killer then? Tanks and orbital strikes? Oh wait. It can't be tanks because heavys were meant to be vehicle killers. If you take your post for its face value, then heavies are supposed to be all around killers in one incarnation or another. This does not make for a balanced, fun gameplay, does it?

You're insane. Heavies are not supposed to be infantry or vehicle killers any more than Assault dropsuits are, because they are just dropsuits. It is the weapon that makes the difference. Use HAVs against HMG users, use Infantry against Forge Gun users. It's simple. Now, stop thinking that Heavies are somehow supposed to be specialized, because that's what weapons are specialized for.

A.) Is the HMG overpowered?
B.) Why or Why Not?
C.) Are you aware of the weapon's flaws?
D.) Can your play-style act on those flaws efficiently?
E.) In your opinion, what is a good weapon to compare the HMG to in terms of usability?
F.) In your opinion, what is a good weapon that competes with the HMG?
G.) What are YOUR proposed solutions, if any?

A.) Is the Shotgun overpowered?
B.) Why or Why Not?
C.) Are you aware of the weapon's flaws?
D.) Can your play-style act on those flaws efficiently?
E.) In your opinion, what is a good weapon to compare the Shotgun to in terms of usability?
F.) In your opinion, what is a good weapon that competes with the Shotgun?
G.) What are YOUR proposed solutions, if any?