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Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2013.02.19 11:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
HMG
I only have two things to say ;
Range, and bullet spread. Everything else i can live with.
- A HMG shouldn't have the same range as an AR, that is ridiculous.
- No bullet spread what so ever ? in such a powerful gun ?
Shotgun
only one thing :
Damage type.
- I'm ok with the shotgun destroying armor in one shoot, but it should NOT eat through your shields in one shoot too. The damage to the shields should be allot least, than the damage to the armor. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 12:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:HMG
I only have two things to say ;
Range, and bullet spread. Everything else i can live with.
- A HMG shouldn't have the same range as an AR, that is ridiculous.
- No bullet spread what so ever ? in such a powerful gun ?
Shotgun
only one thing :
Damage type.
- I'm ok with the shotgun destroying armor in one shoot, but it should NOT eat through your shields in one shoot too. The damage to the shields should be allot least, than the damage to the armor. You really don't know what you're talking about newberry.
You mean "Newberry", as for i don't agree with every ridiculous OP idea, that you EvE online fans have ?
Everything is OP this... and OP that with you guys....
Fine... I'm a newberry then. Just carry on like this, and calling some one a " Newberry" is going to be a compliment. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 12:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:I wasent going to call you a newberrie but i was going to ask if you could elaborate on your feed back as i took the time to produce proper feed back on the HMG , as was requested by the op . If you wouldent mind good sir i would be greatfull .
Recoil : the backward momentum of a gun when it is discharged
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors.
Now... what is the caliber of the bullets that an HMG shoots ? how much Rpm ? and how much it weights ?
Do the maths, and you'll see that the full thing is outside down... and i don't care about the "but this is EvE " and everything is OP in EVE... blah, blah...
Recoil, is recoil... in EvE and in real live. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:The HMG dose suffer from barrel wander and it only gets worse as you skill up the HMG operation and capacity skill books becaus the longer you fire the more the barrel wanders because you have a greater mag and a longer burnout but as i said the longer you fire the biger the wander , as i mentiond about accuracy it only decreases your spread . you have to be good to keep it on a moving target for more than a second when in full sipn whic i also stated dosnt kick in untill you are half way through your burnout . The reason it gets more accurate if you need the lore is because the firing barrels spin in opposing directions therefore creationg greater centrafugal force directly to the center of the gun llowing a direct stream of lead but creating greater barrel wander .
Ok lets say i agree with the " Lore " .
Even if the firing barrels spins in opposing directions, to create better centrifugal force. That should theoretically, help to reduce the gun movement at full Rpm, making the HMG "possible " to control with high caliber ammunition, and high Rpm. Without the spinning barrels creating greater centrifugal force, the HMG will be impossible to control.
But all that, will not stop the backwards momentum from affecting the effective range, and accuracy of the HMG. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 16:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:pegasis prime wrote:The HMG dose suffer from barrel wander and it only gets worse as you skill up the HMG operation and capacity skill books becaus the longer you fire the more the barrel wanders because you have a greater mag and a longer burnout but as i said the longer you fire the biger the wander , as i mentiond about accuracy it only decreases your spread . you have to be good to keep it on a moving target for more than a second when in full sipn whic i also stated dosnt kick in untill you are half way through your burnout . The reason it gets more accurate if you need the lore is because the firing barrels spin in opposing directions therefore creationg greater centrafugal force directly to the center of the gun llowing a direct stream of lead but creating greater barrel wander . Ok lets say i agree with the " Lore " . Even if the firing barrels spins in opposing directions, to create better centrifugal force. That should theoretically, help to reduce the gun movement at full Rpm, making the HMG "possible " to control with high caliber ammunition, and high Rpm. Without the spinning barrels creating greater centrifugal force, the HMG will be impossible to control. But all that, will not stop the backwards momentum from affecting the effective range, and accuracy of the HMG. No, by damage per round, the HMG is firing a smaller round than the SMG, at twice the fire rate. It has just over twice the optimal range of the SMG so it's charge would be a bit larger. If an operator is able to fire the SMG easily then a massively armored dropsuit like the heavy would be well able to handle the HMG recoil. And there aren't barrels spinning in different directions. There's a weighed collar that spins to create a counter gyroscopic force, that combined with the gyroscopic force of the barrel group makes it a very stable platform. In real life this collar would just prevent the tendency of the gun to slightly pull to one side at the start of firing. Again in real life, infantry operated miniguns mostly operate off pintle mounts. Look up YouTube for any number of videos showing how stable and accurate this is. Fair enough, this is not real life, so designs/changes don't necessarily have to follow physical laws as we know them. As to peoples accusations of the heavy having pin point accuracy with massive range beyond the AR, create an alt character and try it out. You'll soon be eating your words. When a heavy might be wasting ammo and tickling you at long range, they might very well have a team mate tearing you up with an AR, but manage to get the killing shot. The HMG is useless at long range. One lad up above saying 80m. Come off it. Try the setup out first so ya don't have to pretend as to the facts. Yes, the assault version has a max range of 80m but it's cone of fire is massive at that range. As to the OP wanting to know our thoughts on HMGs and SG, Snagman 313 puts it more or less as I think. Being lazy, I won't type it out again.
Ok... starting to see the concept.
Still, what about movement ? you are talking about lots of forces and counter forces involved in the HMG stability, surely any movement that is not rotational ( Forwards, backwards, left, right ), should have a significant impact in the HMG balance. If that is the case, HMG's should only be at "optimal" when standing still ( one foot in front the other position ). A heavy dropsuit + all that forces that you just described, should create lots of instability and unbalance, when trying to move and shoot at the same time. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Ok... starting to see the concept. Still, what about movement ? you are talking about lots of forces and counter forces involved in the HMG stability, surely any movement that is not rotational ( Forwards, backwards, left, right ), should have a significant impact in the HMG balance. If that is the case, HMG's should only be at "optimal" when standing still ( one foot in front the other position ). A heavy dropsuit + all that forces that you just described, should create lots of instability and unbalance, when trying to move and shoot at the same time. Yes and no. Trying to move forwards, backwards, left, right from the direction you're firing would be unrestricted as the plane that the force is being exerted on isn't being changed. Trying to tilt the gun up or down or twisting to the left or right etc., would be attempting to change the plane of force and therefore would be resisted. While still being very stable, more force than normal would be needed. The fact is, this force makes the gun very accurate, but slow down movement as the force tries to keep the barrel group and collar in the same plane as they were when the spinning started. Ingame, moving the muzzle of the gun while firing is alot slower than when not firing so it kind of sticks to a semblance of RL physics. That's why it's easier for lighter suits to circle close to a heavy while it's firing but keep out of it's fire. Once us heavier stop firing we can track ye easily and commence the wall of lead trick An easy trick to see this force for yourself is to get the front wheel off a bike. Prop one end of the axle on a shelf, table, etc., with the wheel vertical, and while holding the other end of the axle between your fingers, give the wheel a good fast spin. You'll now be able to lift the wheel up with with just your fingers on one side of the axle and nothing supporting it on the other. The gyroscopic force keeps it in the plane it started spinning in. A demonstration from Youtube if you want. It nicely shows how the collar works too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrTw7EdyW9A
I believe you talking about "gyroscopic precession" which is left / right rotation, and up / down. In any other direction it would not apply any extra forces. |
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