DUST Search - Win loss or Kd?

Vaerana Myshtana wrote:

Lunamaria Hawkeye wrote:

All that matters is your kd.

Its a first person shooter, the objective is to kill people, if you are not doing that you are not being useful. No one cares how many people u revived or how much armor you repped or how many assists you got. In fact you want to have as few assists as possible, because an assist means that a teammate had to clean up the mess you made and used their ammo to get a kill you should have finished in the first place.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

Dust is not CoD or whatnot. People make this same mistake with EVE vs. WOW, etc.

The point in DUST is to win the battle at the lowest possible cost in ISK/AUR.

Think of it as Darwinian capitalist imperialism.

While KD is a part of that, it is not the end-all-and-be-all. If, for instance, Team B loses a skirmish battle like this:

Team A (50,000ISK Average Loadout)
- Crap Suits
- Crap Equipment
- Good Teamwork
- Good Ability
- 50 kills, 100 deaths

Team B (200,000ISK Average Loadout)
- Good Suits
- Good Equipment
- Crap Teamwork
- Good Ability
- 100 kills, 50 deaths

Then Team A lost 5,000,000 ISK and Team B lost 10,000,000 ISK (and the battle).

Right now, CCP is giving out pretty generous ISK payouts for battles. Based on the vision they've articulated, this may not always be the case. In EVE, the cost of winning is very much a part of how alliances rise and fall. Everything I've seen seems to suggest this is where they are headed with Dust.

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Betty-White Chipped You Doomheim 2	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:11:00 - [1] - Quote which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd?
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:14:00 - [2] - Quote Personally I would want to say W/L but whenever I get a negative K/D it really bothers me...
Jason Sera DUST University Ivy League 18	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:34:00 - [3] - Quote Win the match first....always! K/D means nothing to me. I like capping objectives and playing with fun and cooperative people to win matches. If we lose, well, at least I was playing with fun people....
Adriatic Talon JUDGES OF RUIN 3	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:38:00 - [4] - Quote Definitely the W/L. Anyone who praises their K/D is probably a hot head who has the mindset of a typical FPS player. coughcodcoughplayerscough
NORIC verIV DUST University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:43:00 - [5] - Quote Neither. Its better to play with your members and see if they team well, shoot well, and overall play well.
Vehlhiem 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:45:00 - [6] - Quote I tend to look at war points and W/L ratio. I play a logistics, and support role, thus my K/D is kind of crap compared to those around me, but if you look at my war points, its relatively higher than the rest of my team. So while K/D is nice, and I can hold my own, I don't sit in a tank racking up 30-40 kills a match with 0 deaths. That's my opinion though.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:50:00 - [7] - Quote Win/loss, although even then it's not the best. It'd be nice if there was an average WP per game stat instead. KDR is only useful for comparing very specific types of players, like snipers. Right now there aren't any good metrics for really determining how valuable a player is. And even if a corp were interested in setting a benchmark for admissions purposes, it's such a pain in the ass to see what a given person's stats are that it'd be more trouble than it's worth.
Dr Debo Galaxy GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 189	Posted - 2013.01.17 04:15:00 - [8] - Quote This is why I love this game. To me KD means nothing and here it doesn't matter if you loose all your clones but one as long as you win. I'm a logi and can have a k/d of 9/18 and still be number one at the end of the match. I'm putting in work and it's nice to see some love for it. So win loss is more important to me.
Jeremiah ambromot Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2013.01.17 04:22:00 - [9] - Quote W/L because if you are going to be hired for taking a planet I don't think they would care about the rest. Now for making the "perfect" squad K/D would be good for sniper and hav, wp for drop ship and logi. Even the perfect squad once together their k/d would need to be good and work together for such.
Daxos Cavaletto IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 74	Posted - 2013.01.17 04:26:00 - [10] - Quote W/L in corp battles are that matter though over the long term w/l in public matches does reflects the ability of you or your squad mates to impact a match. Very few players are true carrys in dust.

usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.01.17 05:45:00 - [11] - Quote well in ambush k/d means the most to me.... but winning in and objective based game mode is always the most important thing.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.01.17 05:54:00 - [12] - Quote I always try for the win but I don't really care about either stat much. I'd think more of WLR if it wasn't so influenced by the randoms that I get grouped with. & KDR is meh to me, if I said that going negative doesn't bother me I'd be lying but that's the competitive gamer in me. I find myself more into kill count & doing so with cheap fits. But.. if I had to choose between the two, WLR.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2281	Posted - 2013.01.17 06:20:00 - [13] - Quote Betty-White Chipped You wrote: which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd? None if ur talkin about pubgames only thing matters is ur W/L in corp matches
crazy space 2100046106 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.01.17 06:31:00 - [14] - Quote If only there was a downside to losing, a reward for winning. But there isn't.
Betty-White Chipped You Doomheim 2	Posted - 2013.01.17 06:34:00 - [15] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Betty-White Chipped You wrote: which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd? None if ur talkin about pubgames only thing matters is ur W/L in corp matches im talking over all win loss not just in pubs either
Vance Alken Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 94	Posted - 2013.01.17 07:04:00 - [16] - Quote ISK/Kill ISK/Match W/L
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 114	Posted - 2013.01.17 07:10:00 - [17] - Quote Both stats don't matter at all. Overall w/l (includes pub matches) is more of a crap shoot for who your blue dots are, and even more so if you do skirmish over ambush. Only thing that matters is your w/l in corp matches, and only if you're fighting other strong corps.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 428	Posted - 2013.01.17 07:24:00 - [18] - Quote No you want Average WP per match and WP per death. Those are the only two that matter.
KingBabar Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 441	Posted - 2013.01.17 07:49:00 - [19] - Quote There is no "or". Win/loss in Pub matches can be hard to do anything about if the rest of your team really sucks. Making up the gap isn't always possible. Its the corp battle W/L that matters. In general term the W/L ratio and the KDR is normally very closely related, except for snipers and other "edge of the map" players.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 164	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:11:00 - [20] - Quote Kdr doesn't mean quality when snipers are involved. I'd like a WP or kill per minute meter.

DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 254	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:14:00 - [21] - Quote KDR>EVERYTHING lol jk
Enji Elric Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears 176	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:21:00 - [22] - Quote Betty-White Chipped You wrote: which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd? I would say I would look at the person's KDR, Because as it stands right now if that person Queues up on his own and gets into a match that has his teamed red-lined/given up and he then goes on to finish the game with a KDR of 2.0 or +/- .5 then I would say he is a good player he may just not have a good team to roll with however if you see someone who has a Ridiculously good W/L and a REALLY HORRIBLE KDR and isnt doing something like Logi-Repping then its safe to say his W/L is a Carry from his team and he isn't a very good player
Enji Elric Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears 176	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:23:00 - [23] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Win/loss, although even then it's not the best. It'd be nice if there was an average WP per game stat instead. KDR is only useful for comparing very specific types of players, like snipers. Right now there aren't any good metrics for really determining how valuable a player is. And even if a corp were interested in setting a benchmark for admissions purposes, it's such a pain in the ass to see what a given person's stats are that it'd be more trouble than it's worth. Funny Exmaplecore isn't a sniper... EDIT: what I'm pointing out here is KDR can be used to gauge a player.... but, best way to find out about the player is to talk to them and ask them their play style.
lowratehitman Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 282	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:35:00 - [24] - Quote K/d is good for others in your corp to see, or you being able to see theirs. This is a FPS and when building a squad, would you not like knowing or having a heavy hitter in your squad? I must include as long as they are being helpful to the squad/team and not basing their action soley on a K/D perspective. Ambush is all about K/D in my opinion, so yeah, Id like a squad full of heavy hitters in ambush.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 254	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:45:00 - [25] - Quote lowratehitman wrote: K/d is good for others in your corp to see, or you being able to see theirs. This is a FPS and when building a squad, would you not like knowing or having a heavy hitter in your squad? I must include as long as they are being helpful to the squad/team and not basing their action soley on a K/D perspective. Ambush is all about K/D in my opinion, so yeah, Id like a squad full of heavy hitters in ambush. I think the same way. I play ambush mostly so the higher the kd, the more they are contributing to winning. Winning a match is mostly one sided. Thus it means whoever gets lucky and gets the best blue dots wins. However there are times where it is an even pub match. Those are fun.
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 140	Posted - 2013.01.17 09:54:00 - [26] - Quote DUST is a complicated game, thus giving many different factors to influence the players effectivity on the battlefield. Unfortunately we are still missing stats such as vehicles destoryed, healing done, ammo replenished, how many kills with what gun ect ect. The best way currently is to take all of the info available; War points, K/D and W/L ratios and look at the big picture. Good KD, crap amount of WP? Sniper. Crap KD, high WP? Logi or AV Average KD, High WP? Effective scouts Average to high KD, Average WP? heavy or assault Then if you take into account the win/loss ratio you can see how effectively they perform with a team. Again snipers should have a horrible W/L where as a heavy or Logi should have a considerably higher W/L. This isnt true for everyone but theres no point in pingeon holing people for one stat or another. At the end of the day we dont have as much data to be able to judge how good someone is at a quick glance.
Tibolin Wargan HavoK Core 12	Posted - 2013.01.17 10:06:00 - [27] - Quote I am an AV... but I feel a bit sad, so far not many vehicles are deployed compared to previous built. Are people building up SP and ISK before deploying in mass? I rarely see dropships anymore.
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 140	Posted - 2013.01.17 10:25:00 - [28] - Quote Tibolin Wargan wrote: I am an AV... but I feel a bit sad, so far not many vehicles are deployed compared to previous built. Are people building up SP and ISK before deploying in mass? I rarely see dropships anymore. Just make sure you have SP invested into your side arm, the assault SMG with a couple of levels of sharp shooter is a beast close range.
Mister0Zz Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 31	Posted - 2013.01.17 13:44:00 - [29] - Quote neither, what matters is Damages in isk Dealt and recieved a 200,000isk proto heavy can kill a 10,000isk assault , the assault kills the heavy once the assault loses 100,000isk the heavy loses 200,000isk war isn't as simple as lives lost, and neither is this game. For those stats to truly matter this game would have to level the playing field completely. Therefore there would be no incentive to upgrade to better equipment. Yeah we may not be able to track it, but are we so vain as to only care about this stat as a way of chestbeating?
Tibolin Wargan HavoK Core 12	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:38:00 - [30] - Quote Guinevere Bravo wrote: Tibolin Wargan wrote: I am an AV... but I feel a bit sad, so far not many vehicles are deployed compared to previous built. Are people building up SP and ISK before deploying in mass? I rarely see dropships anymore. Just make sure you have SP invested into your side arm, the assault SMG with a couple of levels of sharp shooter is a beast close range. I just realized that actually I wish I had realized it sooner as I wasted some precious SPs on AR (was trying to double as AR and AV) i'll eventually make up for it.

EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:44:00 - [31] - Quote Betty-White Chipped You wrote: which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd? both
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:46:00 - [32] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Betty-White Chipped You wrote: which one is more important to all corp members? i know some may say both but which one would come first to you the win with negative kd or the loss with possitive kd? None if ur talkin about pubgames only thing matters is ur W/L in corp matches the only other part I would add to this is by winning games by cloning the other team, but even then its about getting that shinny W
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:49:00 - [33] - Quote it's already been proven it's possible to have a high KDR and WLR in this game. Scrubs will always be worthless.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 199	Posted - 2013.01.17 15:02:00 - [34] - Quote I think I have to side with the "personality first" argument. If you don't get along with these people, does it really matter if they can shoot well? On top of that, from what I've seen, it's the teams that cooperate well that win matches, get tons of WP, and get tons of kills. So I would argue that if the person(s) in question are fun and have a good team attitude, then their skill will eventually catch up. If they are complete Sanshaheads, then their skill as a player isn't likely to get any better- from your perspective. I also have to agree in general principle with the breakdown that Guinevere Bravo provided earlier. Different roles and play styles will reflect differently in scoring. Bear in mind, that in pub matches without a solid squad structure, someone may have to change roles repeatedly (scout to logi to AV to sniper to assault) to plug holes in the team. In such cases, the scoring will be an average of what GB talked about- probably an average-to-low KD, average-to-high WP. This is where W/L comes in. It's also why it's helpful to have people who can talk and organize a team's actions- which reminds me... I need to go buy a durned mic.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2013.01.17 15:16:00 - [35] - Quote The Win/Loss and KD mechanism is broken out here. The Win/Loss ratio should be like this;- Ambush Win/Loss Skirmish Win/Loss Corp Battles Win/Loss Tourney Win/Loss The KD should be like this;- Ambush KD Skirmish KD Corp Battles KD Tourney KD If more game modes are added if should fall into the same category.
Lavirac JR DUST University Ivy League 129	Posted - 2013.01.17 15:42:00 - [36] - Quote In this game it is how well you work in a team when SP and Equipment is equal. The teams that dominate have solid squads where members know their roles and execute their roles. This is why I joined DUST University, to train Blueberries in the importance of teamwork so that good/elite corps eventually recruit them and they stay in Dust and make our game stronger. There is no metric for that, you just have to squad with a player and learn how they view squading through their actions.
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 432	Posted - 2013.01.17 17:32:00 - [37] - Quote how can you care about something that doesnt get tracked or am i not looking in the right place
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 183	Posted - 2013.01.17 17:36:00 - [38] - Quote WP per kill. It will show you how support oriented a player is. Closer to 50 it is the more 'kill obsessed' a player is. logins shouldn't be very close to 50 at all, while heavies should probably be closest. Also imagine yourself as an eve corp looking to contract a dust corp for planet takeover. I would think they would want the services of people who win rather than those who use less clones. Which just made me realize, the more players that spawn at uplinks the ore points your team gets. So in a way you can reduce the WP difference between teams if, when anyone dies they span at an uplink. So rather than one team getting 50pts and the other 0, the respawners can at least get 25 or 30. But I digress. You wouldn't want to hire a corp that looks like they 'avoid death' at the cost of winning.
Lunamaria Hawkeye SyNergy Gaming 92	Posted - 2013.01.17 18:21:00 - [39] - Quote All that matters is your kd. Its a first person shooter, the objective is to kill people, if you are not doing that you are not being useful. No one cares how many people u revived or how much armor you repped or how many assists you got. In fact you want to have as few assists as possible, because an assist means that a teammate had to clean up the mess you made and used their ammo to get a kill you should have finished in the first place.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 199	Posted - 2013.01.17 18:34:00 - [40] - Quote Lunamaria Hawkeye wrote: All that matters is your kd. Its a first person shooter, the objective is to kill people, if you are not doing that you are not being useful. No one cares how many people u revived or how much armor you repped or how many assists you got. In fact you want to have as few assists as possible, because an assist means that a teammate had to clean up the mess you made and used their ammo to get a kill you should have finished in the first place. Sorry, but I have to disagree. Dust is not CoD or whatnot. People make this same mistake with EVE vs. WOW, etc. The point in DUST is to win the battle at the lowest possible cost in ISK/AUR. Think of it as Darwinian capitalist imperialism. While KD is a part of that, it is not the end-all-and-be-all. If, for instance, Team B loses a skirmish battle like this: Team A (50,000ISK Average Loadout) - Crap Suits - Crap Equipment - Good Teamwork - Good Ability - 50 kills, 100 deaths Team B (200,000ISK Average Loadout) - Good Suits - Good Equipment - Crap Teamwork - Good Ability - 100 kills, 50 deaths Then Team A lost 5,000,000 ISK and Team B lost 10,000,000 ISK (and the battle). Right now, CCP is giving out pretty generous ISK payouts for battles. Based on the vision they've articulated, this may not always be the case. In EVE, the cost of winning is very much a part of how alliances rise and fall. Everything I've seen seems to suggest this is where they are headed with Dust.

Lunamaria Hawkeye SyNergy Gaming 92	Posted - 2013.01.17 18:50:00 - [41] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Lunamaria Hawkeye wrote: All that matters is your kd. Its a first person shooter, the objective is to kill people, if you are not doing that you are not being useful. No one cares how many people u revived or how much armor you repped or how many assists you got. In fact you want to have as few assists as possible, because an assist means that a teammate had to clean up the mess you made and used their ammo to get a kill you should have finished in the first place. Sorry, but I have to disagree. Dust is not CoD or whatnot. People make this same mistake with EVE vs. WOW, etc. The point in DUST is to win the battle at the lowest possible cost in ISK/AUR. Think of it as Darwinian capitalist imperialism. While KD is a part of that, it is not the end-all-and-be-all. If, for instance, Team B loses a skirmish battle like this: Team A (50,000ISK Average Loadout) - Crap Suits - Crap Equipment - Good Teamwork - Good Ability - 50 kills, 100 deaths Team B (200,000ISK Average Loadout) - Good Suits - Good Equipment - Crap Teamwork - Good Ability - 100 kills, 50 deaths Then Team A lost 5,000,000 ISK and Team B lost 10,000,000 ISK (and the battle). Right now, CCP is giving out pretty generous ISK payouts for battles. Based on the vision they've articulated, this may not always be the case. In EVE, the cost of winning is very much a part of how alliances rise and fall. Everything I've seen seems to suggest this is where they are headed with Dust. You are so very wrong. Anyone can create a hypothetical situation where a team gets owned and everyone has a negative kd but they still win. This is a common fallacy among people who don't understand the importance of kdr. The truth of the matter is, this hypothetical situation doesnt happen. If you have half as many kills as the enemy team, odds are, you are getting spawn camped, because you didn't cap any objectives, because ur team sucks. If you can't kill people defending objectives, you don't capture the objectives, and you get spawn camped.
Cyn Bruin Imperfects Negative-Feedback 651	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:20:00 - [42] - Quote WINNING is everything. Doesn't matter what it is: Public, Mercenary, Corporation battles, 1v1 gun battle. It's all about the W. If you WIN, all those stats take care of themselves.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:46:00 - [43] - Quote Cyn Bruin wrote: WINNING is everything. Doesn't matter what it is: Public, Mercenary, Corporation battles, 1v1 gun battle. It's all about the W. If you WIN, all those stats take care of themselves. Wins without the game mode information is meaningless. For example in ambush where the game objective is depletion of clones all you need to do is take control of an elavated position with a couple of droplinks and the game is yours. The same tactic does not apply in Skirmish. Gaining hte higher ground doesnt relay guarantee a win. Tact and equipment awaremess plays a greater role here. Tact could also include taking control of an elevated position. The same applies for Corp battles or null sec/low sec battles. The tactic and mentallity change. For example in some pub matches people just get into it for the fun of it. My alt runs around with a shotgun just for ***** and giggles. I am not in it FTW but FTF. The level of seriousness of the gamer and the equipment they use differ with the game modes they play. And thats why separate statistics by game mode are required. There are also usefulness of a player/corp that needs to be calculated which is generally a fuction of the WL/KD/WP and SP. This can be further detailed by weapon/vehicle based stats. If we look at the Eve stats and compare it to the Dust stats there are various factors used there. TLDR: Dust stats are fuked up
fahrenheitM Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:49:00 - [44] - Quote Sentient Archon wrote: TLDR: Dust stats are fuked up Pretty much this through and through... while you can make a good argument that stats are a good way to evaluate trending (this team wins more than that)... there are so many exotic variables in play that it makes it difficult. The only constant is that everyone has to deal with the same variables.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2013.01.17 20:00:00 - [45] - Quote fahrenheitM wrote: Sentient Archon wrote: TLDR: Dust stats are fuked up Pretty much this through and through... while you can make a good argument that stats are a good way to evaluate trending (this team wins more than that)... there are so many exotic variables in play that it makes it difficult. The only constant is that everyone has to deal with the same variables. True dat! Thats why the only 2 things I am focusing right now is to get my proto suit and proto weapon.
Tibolin Wargan HavoK Core 12	Posted - 2013.01.19 19:00:00 - [46] - Quote I am experimenting with different roles, trying logistics right now... yeah it's all about the KDR... until you get shot, then you wish the logistic guy with average-low KRD revives you.
Betty-White Chipped You Doomheim 2	Posted - 2013.01.20 16:17:00 - [47] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: it's already been proven it's possible to have a high KDR and WLR in this game. Scrubs will always be worthless. lol im not saying i did this solo because i didnt no my corp isnt in the top ten like 843 mentioned to me and then called us scrubs..lol at that but we managed to break top 60 corps in warpoints and are pretty good players when we only had 4 players in our corp. so win loss and wp are the most important things along with teamwork and communication and working with the other teams and or corps to win the game. then joined a game late where 843 was beating the **** out of the team we joined in caught up and stomped them out by winning. they all used heavies with either assault rifles and or machine guns and all stayed at the letters they held but we won by kills.
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2013.01.20 16:26:00 - [48] - Quote It kinda depends on what we're evaluating doesn't it? like if i'm deciding whether or not to recruit someone, i could forgive a bad W/L if they had a good K/D because they could easily have ended up ****** by the blue dot lottery. they're worth a tryout, right? whereas if i were looking to hire a corp to do a job for me, i'd be FAR more interested in the corps W/L. i don't care how pro they looked doing it if they let my planet get burned to the ground or whatever.


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