Something I realized on the last day of the chromosome build, if EVERYONE were to bring out good gear the game is much better. The ISK reward goes up, and we all generally get paid. So while your bringing out better gear and losing isk, you get it back if other players do the same. Too bad everyone has the mentality to stockpile good gear and not bring it out.

dunno last build I was broke the entire time and never broke a million isk even. This build already got a million.

Something I realized on the last day of the chromosome build, if EVERYONE were to bring out good gear the game is much better. The ISK reward goes up, and we all generally get paid. So while your bringing out better gear and losing isk, you get it back if other players do the same. Too bad everyone has the mentality to stockpile good gear and not bring it out.

This whole "needs to be a reason to upgrade" thing has dragged on for a really long time. There is a reason to upgrade, it isn't the base stats, it is the extra mod slots. More mod slots=beastiality. GL killing a proto logi loaded up on proto shield extenders and the best armor plates+best armor repper mods+kinetic booster mods to make up for slowing due to armor plates. That logi doesn't have any better base stats than the standard, but it ends up with **** tons more EHP.
/rant

BUT I realize this isn't the main point of your post. Yes, BPOs should stay. I say so because you actually are risking something by using them, that is to say you are risking losing the battle for using sub-par gear that is easily out-matched by that proto logi I mentioned earlier.

The advantages of BPO's requiring materials to be used.
1) You can make BPC's and sell for money (Even more if you have a rare bpo)
2) You can buy the materials and make it yourself (this way you can save money).
3) It opens the possibility of PROTO BPO's (Without the risk of ruining the game)
4) The secondary market will be interesting for people like me, that loves shopping!

This whole "needs to be a reason to upgrade" thing has dragged on for a really long time. There is a reason to upgrade, it isn't the base stats, it is the extra mod slots. More mod slots=beastiality. GL killing a proto logi loaded up on proto shield extenders and the best armor plates+best armor repper mods+kinetic booster mods to make up for slowing due to armor plates. That logi doesn't have any better base stats than the standard, but it ends up with **** tons more EHP.
/rant

BUT I realize this isn't the main point of your post. Yes, BPOs should stay. I say so because you actually are risking something by using them, that is to say you are risking losing the battle for using sub-par gear that is easily out-matched by that proto logi I mentioned earlier.

CCP has told us numerous times that they don't like what BPO's became in eve, and as a result have no plans to ever introduce higher tier BPO items.


While it's true they are planning on making everything (even BPO's) have a material cost later on, it still doesn't change the issue. BPO gear is too good now that the tiers are flat! Even if it costs a little to make a BPO, that's still a price the people who are not using BPO gear have to pay for their stuff too, so in relative terms there's no difference between the price of the item itself, just the stuff to make it.

CCP has told us numerous times that they don't like what BPO's became in eve, and as a result have no plans to ever introduce higher tier BPO items.


While it's true they are planning on making everything (even BPO's) have a material cost later on, it still doesn't change the issue. BPO gear is too good now that the tiers are flat! Even if it costs a little to make a BPO, that's still a price the people who are not using BPO gear have to pay for their stuff too, so in relative terms there's no difference between the price of the item itself, just the stuff to make it.

This whole "needs to be a reason to upgrade" thing has dragged on for a really long time. There is a reason to upgrade, it isn't the base stats, it is the extra mod slots. More mod slots=beastiality. GL killing a proto logi loaded up on proto shield extenders and the best armor plates+best armor repper mods+kinetic booster mods to make up for slowing due to armor plates. That logi doesn't have any better base stats than the standard, but it ends up with **** tons more EHP.
/rant

BUT I realize this isn't the main point of your post. Yes, BPOs should stay. I say so because you actually are risking something by using them, that is to say you are risking losing the battle for using sub-par gear that is easily out-matched by that proto logi I mentioned earlier.

Hey Logi Bro, what is that stats on a proto logi? Like how many High/Low/Equipment slots?

The Proto logi you describe isn't actually that great. Sure, they get a beastly shield.. But the plates you mentioned? The speed mod only helps when they are sprinting. Their ability to strafe is still severely nerfed and as a result they are hit with far more bullets than they otherwise would be. You're better off sticking three regulators and an armor rep in those lowslots, TBH.

The only armor plate worth using is the standard level, because 3% speed loss is managable. 10% just starts to hurt. Multiple plates just bring you to close to a heavy's speed with much less durability and no sidearms.


Still, extra slots aren't that much of a reason to upgrade TBH. My 'Sever' Logi suit is all I ever need as far as logistics go. In past builds I'd usually train suits in the order of scout -> logi -> heavy, but as long as i have my 'Sever' (Arguably the only pay to win MAG suit) I don't feel any need to train logi at all past level 1. All I need to rock logi is a repair tool, injector, and gauged nanohives. Run out of nanohives? Just restock at a supply depot. Before the Sever that'd mean at least investing in an advanced suit. But now? No problem. Yay BPO!


@ Ironwolf and Necandi : No, I'm not talking about Tech 2. I mean proto and advanced stuff. If CCP sticks to what they were saying for the last few months, there will never be advanced or prototype BPOs.

4 high slots and 4 low slots, the most CPU/PG of any dropsuit, four equipment slots, and I could go on for a while.
Basically proto logi is pretty OP, but people don't know this because there aren't very many proto logi's out there.

I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on BPO items.

The more time goes on, the less and less I like these.


CCP advertised dust as a game defined by RISK vs REWARD. Going into battle and actually losing the assets you bring in if you die. But for the past couple months, with the introduction of more and more BPO weapons and suits, coupled with the flattening of the tiers to make upgrading out of those low tier BPO suits pretty much pointless... It's just left me with a sour taste. While CCP has said there's never going to be BPO items for high-tier stuff... No one even needs it because of how good the current BPO stuff is compared to everything else.

Don't get me wrong. Lately I've been using nothing but a Valor Scout with a militia shotgun blueprint. My fit costs me 0 ISK, and like 10k ISK when I switch to the copy of it that has AV nades. And yet I can still decimate pretty much anyone I see with my OHK shotgun that costs me nothing, even if they are not using free gear?


Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people who buy high end gear should automatically beat people using the low tier stuff. But there needs to be a reason to upgrade. Prior to both the suit + weapon flattening, a bad player in prototype gear would still lose to a good player in militia. A good player in militia gear would beat a bad player in militia. A good player in proto gear would still beat a bad player in militia. A good player with militia gear facing a good player in proto would be a tossup largely depending on circumstances such as who has better cover, which weapon type they both have, etc. Gear never really mattered a whole lot. It's always been more reliant on player skill. (Exception: Scout suits in the earlier builds. No skill was needed to be invincible in those. Good times!) Granted, a good player using bad gear did have to work a bit more to kill a bad player in good gear. If anything, those differences gave them a better chance against the better player.

The flattening was apparently done to give 'new players' a chance. But really, it didn't do anything more than make it pointless to upgrade! CCP can look at the stats of all the people who rocked high tier gear in past builds. People who went 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths are still going 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths. A good player will always beat a bad player regardless of the stats on the gear either of them are using.


A couple months ago, all militia stuff was BPO. None of it ever ran out, for 1000 isk or so you'd get a permanent copy. When CCP announced changing them to BPC (temporary) items, I was one of the people who highly opposed that change. At the time it seemed crazy. As time goes on, I'm starting to become more and more convinced that they made the right move. But then the introduction of BPO's for aurum kind of killed it.


Personally, I'd much rather that if the tiers remain flat, BPO's get removed entirely. Since everyone is just using cheap/free gear anyways. It would bring back some measure of the whole risk/reward dynamic that is supposed to be huge in this game.

Ideally the tiericide would get reverted and there'd be a reason to upgrade again. But maybe that's hoping for too much.

Current SUIT BPO's could become just BPO's for color schemes, since each BPO suit has a special visual as it is.


EDIT: Starter fits would be the exception. They could remain free since they are all pretty garbage, even though there has been numerous posts on how to improve them.

...owning the BPO reduces the cost of the item by 50%....

Quick fix - Allow BPO items to be used until you reach a ISK wallet amount of 500k. Then at that point any fit you have with BPO's in them will be invalid until you either swap out the BPO for a regular Militia item or better or you fall below the 500k cutoff.

I know some people will get around this by continually donating money to their Corp wallet but its a deterrence and the BPO's are already in now.

For more extreme measures have a Total Skill Point cutoff of BPO's. If you play long enough to hit what ever skill point cap was decided to cutoff BPO's entirely you should be fine to recoup ISK with regular Militia items, if that fails you still have the free starter fits.

Simple fix.....remove the flattening stats of the weapons. Return them back to Codex stats.

CCP has told us numerous times that they don't like what BPO's became in eve, and as a result have no plans to ever introduce higher tier BPO items.


While it's true they are planning on making everything (even BPO's) have a material cost later on, it still doesn't change the issue. BPO gear is too good now that the tiers are flat! Even if it costs a little to make a BPO, that's still a price the people who are not using BPO gear have to pay for their stuff too, so in relative terms there's no difference between the price of the item itself, just the stuff to make it.

This whole "needs to be a reason to upgrade" thing has dragged on for a really long time. There is a reason to upgrade, it isn't the base stats, it is the extra mod slots. More mod slots=beastiality. GL killing a proto logi loaded up on proto shield extenders and the best armor plates+best armor repper mods+kinetic booster mods to make up for slowing due to armor plates. That logi doesn't have any better base stats than the standard, but it ends up with **** tons more EHP.
/rant

BUT I realize this isn't the main point of your post. Yes, BPOs should stay. I say so because you actually are risking something by using them, that is to say you are risking losing the battle for using sub-par gear that is easily out-matched by that proto logi I mentioned earlier.

If you remove the bpo's I would expect a refund on the aurum I spent. Since this was the supposedly the last wipe I don't see this as a real option.

The bpos are fine who cares if someone can use a free suit and mine cost isk. I enjoy running better gear and hardly use bpos after a few weeks they serve there purpose on the low end.

There are many other things in this game that need more attention than this, since if it was the last wipe you would have a hard time putting the genie back in the bottle.

The whole reason I bought the merc pac's were for the three suits, the bpo nade and the toxin, the rest were items given to us for events.

So I don think removing or changing them would make much sense at this point and a lot of people who bought them with real money would be upset, let alone that crazy Canadian law thing.

And why is there no bpo teir1 heavy suit?

I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on BPO items.

The more time goes on, the less and less I like these.


CCP advertised dust as a game defined by RISK vs REWARD. Going into battle and actually losing the assets you bring in if you die. But for the past couple months, with the introduction of more and more BPO weapons and suits, coupled with the flattening of the tiers to make upgrading out of those low tier BPO suits pretty much pointless... It's just left me with a sour taste. While CCP has said there's never going to be BPO items for high-tier stuff... No one even needs it because of how good the current BPO stuff is compared to everything else.

Don't get me wrong. Lately I've been using nothing but a Valor Scout with a militia shotgun blueprint. My fit costs me 0 ISK, and like 10k ISK when I switch to the copy of it that has AV nades. And yet I can still decimate pretty much anyone I see with my OHK shotgun that costs me nothing, even if they are not using free gear?


Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people who buy high end gear should automatically beat people using the low tier stuff. But there needs to be a reason to upgrade. Prior to both the suit + weapon flattening, a bad player in prototype gear would still lose to a good player in militia. A good player in militia gear would beat a bad player in militia. A good player in proto gear would still beat a bad player in militia. A good player with militia gear facing a good player in proto would be a tossup largely depending on circumstances such as who has better cover, which weapon type they both have, etc. Gear never really mattered a whole lot. It's always been more reliant on player skill. (Exception: Scout suits in the earlier builds. No skill was needed to be invincible in those. Good times!) Granted, a good player using bad gear did have to work a bit more to kill a bad player in good gear. If anything, those differences gave them a better chance against the better player.

The flattening was apparently done to give 'new players' a chance. But really, it didn't do anything more than make it pointless to upgrade! CCP can look at the stats of all the people who rocked high tier gear in past builds. People who went 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths are still going 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths. A good player will always beat a bad player regardless of the stats on the gear either of them are using.


A couple months ago, all militia stuff was BPO. None of it ever ran out, for 1000 isk or so you'd get a permanent copy. When CCP announced changing them to BPC (temporary) items, I was one of the people who highly opposed that change. At the time it seemed crazy. As time goes on, I'm starting to become more and more convinced that they made the right move. But then the introduction of BPO's for aurum kind of killed it.


Personally, I'd much rather that if the tiers remain flat, BPO's get removed entirely. Since everyone is just using cheap/free gear anyways. It would bring back some measure of the whole risk/reward dynamic that is supposed to be huge in this game.

Ideally the tiericide would get reverted and there'd be a reason to upgrade again. But maybe that's hoping for too much.

Current SUIT BPO's could become just BPO's for color schemes, since each BPO suit has a special visual as it is.


EDIT: Starter fits would be the exception. They could remain free since they are all pretty garbage, even though there has been numerous posts on how to improve them.

BPO militia gear should be pathetic, either buff all other gear or nerf milita :)

Yes, let's kill off any chance of new players ever wanting to join.

Yes, let's kill off any chance of new players ever wanting to join.

Bpo mechanic allows for much future expansion. When the link between eve and dust economics happens, bpo can be used to make weapons below market price for resale, corp use etc. Bpo's can become ultra valuable rewards for drone killing and such.

BPO and militia / standard gear is something used in pub matches to grind ISK for better things elsewhere, bringing advanced and prototype shouldn't be worth it to anyone in a high sec pub match, quick NPC contract paying very minimal rewards

a level below that (or level above noob queue), low sec with FW which needs to be rethought entirely. getting corps to sign up and have set sides to fight for and people to fight against in a group vs group queuing system would allow people to gain more ISK for risking better gear for the win / loss and would let squads of the same corp fight with each other instead of against.

Null sec is a whole different beast entirely.

It give them an incentive to spec into better gear

They could make it material based by making it where instead of infinite use,you just have blueprints & have to gather the materials to build it every time you lose an outfit or buy the materials similar to DC Universe Online's R&D setup.

Something I realized on the last day of the chromosome build, if EVERYONE were to bring out good gear the game is much better. The ISK reward goes up, and we all generally get paid. So while your bringing out better gear and losing isk, you get it back if other players do the same. Too bad everyone has the mentality to stockpile good gear and not bring it out.

No.

All CCP needs to do is make the bigger tiers better to use.(aka, advance and prototype gear)

Because as of right now I have absolutely no reason to use more expensive gear when it hardly makes a difference.

No.

All CCP needs to do is make the bigger tiers better to use.(aka, advance and prototype gear)

Because as of right now I have absolutely no reason to use more expensive gear when it hardly makes a difference.

I'd say there should be locked starter fits - you get infinite of those suits but you cannot alter the loadout in any way.

Something I really want to see is a Corp armory that can be stocked with a couple of pre-made suits that anyone with the skill can use. I want to be able to make sure my people are geared up.

Things are going to radically change once FW becomes a bigger part of dust. In a contract if you don't win you don't get paid, and if you use sub-par gear because it's free then you will not make any money because you're just gonna get stomped by a better fit corp. these random matches where people are guaranteed ISK probably won't entirely represent what the finished game will be on launch.

What about this...

BPO's maybe only work for like 1 month, then they disappear and you get like 50% or whatever of your aurum back for them. Just an idea. Cause TBH they really arn't usefull after few weeks of playing anyway. Plus they use to much pg, cpu and i would like some of my aurum back. Like the 15000 for the Raven type 1 i'll hardly ever use it again. Thoughts?

I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on BPO items.

The more time goes on, the less and less I like these.


CCP advertised dust as a game defined by RISK vs REWARD. Going into battle and actually losing the assets you bring in if you die. But for the past couple months, with the introduction of more and more BPO weapons and suits, coupled with the flattening of the tiers to make upgrading out of those low tier BPO suits pretty much pointless... It's just left me with a sour taste. While CCP has said there's never going to be BPO items for high-tier stuff... No one even needs it because of how good the current BPO stuff is compared to everything else.

Don't get me wrong. Lately I've been using nothing but a Valor Scout with a militia shotgun blueprint. My fit costs me 0 ISK, and like 10k ISK when I switch to the copy of it that has AV nades. And yet I can still decimate pretty much anyone I see with my OHK shotgun that costs me nothing, even if they are not using free gear?


Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people who buy high end gear should automatically beat people using the low tier stuff. But there needs to be a reason to upgrade. Prior to both the suit + weapon flattening, a bad player in prototype gear would still lose to a good player in militia. A good player in militia gear would beat a bad player in militia. A good player in proto gear would still beat a bad player in militia. A good player with militia gear facing a good player in proto would be a tossup largely depending on circumstances such as who has better cover, which weapon type they both have, etc. Gear never really mattered a whole lot. It's always been more reliant on player skill. (Exception: Scout suits in the earlier builds. No skill was needed to be invincible in those. Good times!) Granted, a good player using bad gear did have to work a bit more to kill a bad player in good gear. If anything, those differences gave them a better chance against the better player.

The flattening was apparently done to give 'new players' a chance. But really, it didn't do anything more than make it pointless to upgrade! CCP can look at the stats of all the people who rocked high tier gear in past builds. People who went 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths are still going 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths. A good player will always beat a bad player regardless of the stats on the gear either of them are using.


A couple months ago, all militia stuff was BPO. None of it ever ran out, for 1000 isk or so you'd get a permanent copy. When CCP announced changing them to BPC (temporary) items, I was one of the people who highly opposed that change. At the time it seemed crazy. As time goes on, I'm starting to become more and more convinced that they made the right move. But then the introduction of BPO's for aurum kind of killed it.


Personally, I'd much rather that if the tiers remain flat, BPO's get removed entirely. Since everyone is just using cheap/free gear anyways. It would bring back some measure of the whole risk/reward dynamic that is supposed to be huge in this game.

Ideally the tiericide would get reverted and there'd be a reason to upgrade again. But maybe that's hoping for too much.

Current SUIT BPO's could become just BPO's for color schemes, since each BPO suit has a special visual as it is.


EDIT: Starter fits would be the exception. They could remain free since they are all pretty garbage, even though there has been numerous posts on how to improve them.

I don't think it's so much the BPO as it is the level flattening across upgrades. People will counter and say there is a reason to upgrade, and they are right - for corp battles. But outside of corp battles if you are using anything other than militia you are just wasting ISK.

BPOs are a good fall back option, but there needs to be more than just extra high/low slots on advanced and proto in order to get players to ditch them. Especially for the heavy one......grumble, grumble...anyway, a 10% increase in the base armor and shield per tier would be what I think is okay. The proto suits would have 20% more armor and shields over the standard in other words. That's not too OP IMO.

Maybe for the heavy suit. For the scout I would say a good incentive would be a much more pronounced difference in base movement and base sprint speed with a bonus to fit cloak modules (assuming we do get cloaks soon).