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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
788
   |
Posted - 2013.01.13 21:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on BPO items.
The more time goes on, the less and less I like these.
CCP advertised dust as a game defined by RISK vs REWARD. Going into battle and actually losing the assets you bring in if you die. But for the past couple months, with the introduction of more and more BPO weapons and suits, coupled with the flattening of the tiers to make upgrading out of those low tier BPO suits pretty much pointless... It's just left me with a sour taste. While CCP has said there's never going to be BPO items for high-tier stuff... No one even needs it because of how good the current BPO stuff is compared to everything else.
Don't get me wrong. Lately I've been using nothing but a Valor Scout with a militia shotgun blueprint. My fit costs me 0 ISK, and like 10k ISK when I switch to the copy of it that has AV nades. And yet I can still decimate pretty much anyone I see with my OHK shotgun that costs me nothing, even if they are not using free gear?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that people who buy high end gear should automatically beat people using the low tier stuff. But there needs to be a reason to upgrade. Prior to both the suit + weapon flattening, a bad player in prototype gear would still lose to a good player in militia. A good player in militia gear would beat a bad player in militia. A good player in proto gear would still beat a bad player in militia. A good player with militia gear facing a good player in proto would be a tossup largely depending on circumstances such as who has better cover, which weapon type they both have, etc. Gear never really mattered a whole lot. It's always been more reliant on player skill. (Exception: Scout suits in the earlier builds. No skill was needed to be invincible in those. Good times!) Granted, a good player using bad gear did have to work a bit more to kill a bad player in good gear. If anything, those differences gave them a better chance against the better player.
The flattening was apparently done to give 'new players' a chance. But really, it didn't do anything more than make it pointless to upgrade! CCP can look at the stats of all the people who rocked high tier gear in past builds. People who went 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths are still going 20+ kills with 0-3 deaths. A good player will always beat a bad player regardless of the stats on the gear either of them are using.
A couple months ago, all militia stuff was BPO. None of it ever ran out, for 1000 isk or so you'd get a permanent copy. When CCP announced changing them to BPC (temporary) items, I was one of the people who highly opposed that change. At the time it seemed crazy. As time goes on, I'm starting to become more and more convinced that they made the right move. But then the introduction of BPO's for aurum kind of killed it.
Personally, I'd much rather that if the tiers remain flat, BPO's get removed entirely. Since everyone is just using cheap/free gear anyways. It would bring back some measure of the whole risk/reward dynamic that is supposed to be huge in this game.
Ideally the tiericide would get reverted and there'd be a reason to upgrade again. But maybe that's hoping for too much.
Current SUIT BPO's could become just BPO's for color schemes, since each BPO suit has a special visual as it is.
EDIT: Starter fits would be the exception. They could remain free since they are all pretty garbage, even though there has been numerous posts on how to improve them. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 21:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Necandi Brasil wrote:The advantages of BPO's requiring materials to be used.
1) You can make BPC's and sell for money (Even more if you have a rare bpo)
2) You can buy the materials and make it yourself (this way you can save money).
3) It opens the possibility of PROTO BPO's (Without the risk of ruining the game)
4) The secondary market will be interesting for people like me, that loves shopping!
CCP has told us numerous times that they don't like what BPO's became in eve, and as a result have no plans to ever introduce higher tier BPO items.
While it's true they are planning on making everything (even BPO's) have a material cost later on, it still doesn't change the issue. BPO gear is too good now that the tiers are flat! Even if it costs a little to make a BPO, that's still a price the people who are not using BPO gear have to pay for their stuff too, so in relative terms there's no difference between the price of the item itself, just the stuff to make it. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 21:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:This whole "needs to be a reason to upgrade" thing has dragged on for a really long time. There is a reason to upgrade, it isn't the base stats, it is the extra mod slots. More mod slots=beastiality. GL killing a proto logi loaded up on proto shield extenders and the best armor plates+best armor repper mods+kinetic booster mods to make up for slowing due to armor plates. That logi doesn't have any better base stats than the standard, but it ends up with **** tons more EHP.
/rant
BUT I realize this isn't the main point of your post. Yes, BPOs should stay. I say so because you actually are risking something by using them, that is to say you are risking losing the battle for using sub-par gear that is easily out-matched by that proto logi I mentioned earlier.
The Proto logi you describe isn't actually that great. Sure, they get a beastly shield.. But the plates you mentioned? The speed mod only helps when they are sprinting. Their ability to strafe is still severely nerfed and as a result they are hit with far more bullets than they otherwise would be. You're better off sticking three regulators and an armor rep in those lowslots, TBH.
The only armor plate worth using is the standard level, because 3% speed loss is managable. 10% just starts to hurt. Multiple plates just bring you to close to a heavy's speed with much less durability and no sidearms.
Still, extra slots aren't that much of a reason to upgrade TBH. My 'Sever' Logi suit is all I ever need as far as logistics go. In past builds I'd usually train suits in the order of scout -> logi -> heavy, but as long as i have my 'Sever' (Arguably the only pay to win MAG suit) I don't feel any need to train logi at all past level 1. All I need to rock logi is a repair tool, injector, and gauged nanohives. Run out of nanohives? Just restock at a supply depot. Before the Sever that'd mean at least investing in an advanced suit. But now? No problem. Yay BPO!
@ Ironwolf and Necandi : No, I'm not talking about Tech 2. I mean proto and advanced stuff. If CCP sticks to what they were saying for the last few months, there will never be advanced or prototype BPOs. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Simple fix.....remove the flattening stats of the weapons. Return them back to Codex stats.
It's not just weapons though, it's suits. I do agree. Reverting the tiericide for both weapons/suits would be the way to go. But that doesn't completely solve the issue of risk-free combat. While some people will upgrade when it's actually worth it, there's still going to be tons of people who just rock free suits because they can.
The only free suits should be the (Horrible, even if they shouldn't be great) starter fits. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Bpo mechanic allows for much future expansion. When the link between eve and dust economics happens, bpo can be used to make weapons below market price for resale, corp use etc. Bpo's can become ultra valuable rewards for drone killing and such.
Except we're never going to see BPO's for higher tier stuff. CCP has said in the past there is no plans to do to, and there's been nothing to say that plan has changed.
The above neglects to mention the horrid state of BPO's in eve online. It takes literally months to get most ship BPO's to the point where you 'save' money and are able to build things lower than market price. Even then, most ships you can only make a couple million isk profit on. If you consider the time and cost spent to get a BPO researched, plus the base cost of the BPO itself, You're looking at multiple years of production before you pay off the initial purchase, in most scenarios.
People who have owned BPO's for years have an immediate advantage over people trying to get established, which is very much against the 'spirit' of eve online, where everything else you can get caught up in just a few short months in you specialize.
CCP never liked how BPO's turned out in eve : But that doesn't mean they need to make the same mistakes with dust. |
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