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Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:

Absolute Idiom II wrote:

I don't mean to be rude Hans, but I learned nothing new from your posts...

That's fine. If you were learning new things from me it would be because I'm breaking another NDA. But -lawyers- and stuff.

I don't expect anyone to learning anything new about Dust from that wordy brain-dump, but I hope you at least walked away with a better understanding that the CSM will be watching this merger carefully and is being very open with CCP about the concerns we share with you about how this is all supposed to work

You might learn a few new things from the summit minutes, unless CCP wimps out and blacklines all the fun stuff. I talked to Nullarbor yesterday though and encouraged him and his team to be bold and to peel back the curtain for you guys and let the minutes stand as much as possible.

The inevitable strikeouts will be all the dates, specific release schedules, etc. That stuff won't ever make it past PR screening. But the game design stuff? That lies in the bravery of the developers, and I'm hoping they'll let you all see as much as the showed the CSM about their future plans.

And yes, I'll post again here in the Dust 514 forums once the minutes are out, I don't expect all of you to suddenly become armchair EVE political junkies and camp the Jita Park forums. You still deserve the news that's related to you nonetheless.

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Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:00:00 - [1] - Quote Hello my fellow Dustfluffers and refugee Bunnuleers, My brother Hans has been a bit of a kitten recently and keeps yelling at me to get my lazy kitten in here to give you guys an update on the work the CSM has been doing re: the EVE Online and Dust 514 "link" and give you a taste of the conversation we had at the recent summit with the architects of our universe, CCP Games. I'll use "we" from this point here because you see, me and Hans have installed in us each a twin-linked Core Complexion "Bro-9000" implant available only to high-ranking members of the Sebiestor Tribe. It allows me to see what Hans see, hear what he hears, and bypass NDA to look straight into the meetings with CCP. However you should know that it is only in this forum that I can speak more freely about our interest in Dust 514, since we enjoy a particular level of openness shielded by our mutual NDA. So let's cut to the chase - everyone here should know straight up that the discussions the CSM had with CCP regarding the rollout of the link between EVE and Dust were amongst the most heated and intense conversations that were held the entire summit.* This turned out quickly to be one of our top areas of concern, regardless of what we went into the summit planning to discuss. I want to take you through this step by step here as everyone in the beta community deserves to know where the CSM stands as we stand on this momentous day. For starters, the CSM showed a marked level of frustration with the amount of advanced planning that the Dust 514 development team has shared with the CSM. That being said, I would also like to separate myself from my peers in at least giving the Dust 514 team a lot of credit for the fact that they've been so deep in the trenches between this forum and the IRC channels. It is honestly a higher level of customer involvement than we typically see on many EVE Online teams, and the Dust 514 team should be commended for this. This was not my personal area of concern. Quite frankly, I've been lurking here long enough to know how much information is available. The community is doing a standup job keeping each other abreast of development, and we on the CSM have a responsibility to keep eyes and ears here as well. At the summit meeting, we were joined by CCP Jian, CCP Nullarbor, and CCP Lakjart. It was at this meeting we discovered that CCP would be deploying Dust 514 on Tranquility in January, this brought with it so many questions and unresolved issues from the first summit session, that CCP Nullarbor and CCP Lakjart decided we needed to be brought up to speed, and a second session was scheduled at the end of our last day at the summit. The questions raised were numerous, specific, and I'm not entirely sure what will be covered under the CSM's higher-level NDA. But I'm happy to tell you a few things now that Dust 514 has arrived on Tranquility and the collar can be loosened another button. Essentially the CSM's primary concern is with the level of depth in the EVE-Dust link, and what constitutes true "gameplay" between the two universes. As we've all seen here, Dust 514 and EVE Online still feel very much like separate games longing to dance with each other in a meaningful way. CCP has acknowledged we are still in closed beta, open beta will widen the public conversation and spotlight, but we are gravely concerned with making sure that this beta period - closed and open alike - are clearly messaged as such, because in our opinion that true game between two games needs to be up and running before the two can really be considered "launched" and worthy of the AAA media marketing blitzkrieg. In my personal opinion, this all still feels like a tech demo, and not anything resembling the cinematic moments hinted at in the trailers we've grown to love. That being said, I think most of us active in these forums by now at least have a handle on the fact that the community is strong, growing, and understands that the merger of the two games will take time, happen incrementally, and if you weren't having fun, you wouldn't be investing your free time trying to make gaming history by contributing all the hard hours of feedback. Show me a CSM member that claims no one will play Dust 514 compared to other games on the market, and I'll show you a CSM member who hasn't put any time into the beta. You guys are here, you're just rightfully demanding more. And its on the way.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:00:00 - [2] - Quote However, lots of missing pieces to the puzzle remain. I mean, really essential missing pieces. Like money. You guys are here for the kittening benjamins. And bloodshed! But for Chribba's sake, those goddamn tanks are expensive and you want us rich capsuleers to pay you to lose them. And why not? You've slagged through month after month of CCP jacking up prices and lowering pay. But the capsuleers know a dirty secret GÇô NPC pay is always total kitten. You want capsuleer scrilla, and you want it now. The absence of money transfer in any rudimentary form is a fundamental design roadblock to the formation of that "game within a game" that I think we're all grasping at and longing for. It's one of those things that without it, the whole immersive idea of being a "merc" starts to crumble. And in Faction Warfare, it becomes more problematic. Without any way for Hans to transfer money to me, (and FFS, we're BROS!! ) I am left to watch my own back. So sorry Hans, you're not getting a Minnie slave to order around, I'm headed towards guaranteed action. If the Amarrians are more organized and can get me into some orbital pew first, I'm torching your sorry ass. Should I care? Yeah, I probably should! But it is what it is for the time being. It's one of many things we need to sort out. And its one of many things we challenged CCP with at the recent summit. Speaking of Faction Warfare, I probably shouldn't be a kitten and fight for the slavers or get involved between the Squids and Frogs, but hell, I'm here for blood and money, and until CCP gives me a mechanism to give any reason to be loyal, Hans is on his own. So in all seriousness. I'm putting my ass up for sale. Gimme a recruitment pitch, show me where I can get involved in some cross-platform pew. I've been in betamax up until this point, and Jenza is a true hero, but this will be much more interesting. I'm in an NPC** corp due to the wipe and its time for a clean slate. Until CCP gives capsuleers the capability to give me a reason to fight, I'm going to rely on you, the community, to provide that incentive. I'm a solid player, I'm going to be skilling up as anti-vehicle, and I can be professional on comms. Show me that your corp is more fun than the next, I'll happily lend you my forge gun. Though I haven't had the time (but will this weekend) to try out Dust on Tranquility, already the community is out problem-solving and brainstorming and coming alight with insight about the direction this grand experiment needs to head, and I'm proud. I'm well aware of the issue with no one showing up for a defense contract meaning the district doesnt switch hands, and as I discussed, the lack of money transfer* or ability for my EVE Alliance to control / pay for your contracts means that Hans has no ability to influence your game. And Hans really really wants to.** Especially since you can influence his. Zion Shad nailed it GÇô functionally, to an EVE capsuleer, the sum of all Dust 514 merc battles (as a whole) could be replaced by a dice-rolling mechanic (but it still impacts our sovereignty), it really is that randomized in the absence of capsuleer intervention. I was quite clear with CCP at the summit that gambling is not a sustainable model to build the FW game around. We need to get our grubby paws in much deeper. CCP showed us a lot of future designs during the unplanned follow-up Dust 514 session, and answered many of our questions and concerns about things that felt unfinished, many of which looked a bit more fleshed out once CCP peeled back the curtain further. We saw specific designs for both generalized lowsec and nullsec gameplay, CCP is not without a sense of direction here. The devil, they say, is in the details. I'd be lying if I said the CSM left completely satisfied with the state of overall progress GÇô but I commend the teams's willingness to listen and respond quickly with additional information. The Dust 514 developers have also committed to scheduling follow-up meetings in the weeks ahead to get deeper into this problem-solving with the CSM and make sure that the integration between the two games develops in a meaningful way that creates buckets of fun gameplay for Dustbunnies and capsuleers alike.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:00:00 - [3] - Quote Expect to hear more from me in here in the days to come. This rollout is too important for the future of both games, not to mention Faction Warfare, and therefore mandates my direct attention in the coming months. I'm here to help however I can. ***** Thanks to the community leaders that have brought us here this far GÇô Grideris, Jenza, Kane Spero, Nova Knife, Zion Shad to name just a few GÇô and for all the corp leaders willing to step up and lead a bunch of crazy nerds off into the gaming abyss, sink or swim. There is so much left to be done, and so much potential here, I personally am ridiculously excited to see how this all plays out. But I won't lie GÇô it makes me nervous as hell at the same time. And I'm sure it does to CCP. And I know it does to you. No one's done this before, no one know's what they're doing exactly, though we all have our part to play. And thank you to the Dust 514 developers for your utmost patience with the CSM and the community. We ask a lot of annoying questions, but they simply have to be asked. We obnoxiously pester you to get this or that fixed, but its because we care. We're more often critical than complimentary, but that is what this beta period is for. There's nobody served well by sitting back and getting too caught up in feeling smug about "gaming history" when there is so much work still to be done. Let's make this everything it can be. The whole world is watching. No pressure! Thanks to everyone for sticking it out through many words, Hans / Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous, Late Night Alliance (in EVE) (???) in Dust 514 CSM7 Vice Secretary Contact info: EVEmail: Hans Jagerblitzen Skype contact name: Hans.Jagerblitzen (Skype is the quickest and most reliable way to reach me, I have it open almost 24/7) Twitter: @Hansshotfirst Please take some time to read the upcoming CSM7 Winter Summit Minutes we've been preparing. I transcribed the Dust 514 sessions personally in great detail, capturing as much as possible about the upcoming work and the CSM's concerns / praises about it. However, I cannot guarantee what will or won't be considered sensitive information at this time, much of it may be NDA'd out and the time will have been wasted. But I'm hoping CCP will be brave and willing to open up to you about our talks and allow you to read about the specific issues discussed in detail, I had to take that chance. Update: Currently in [AUTOZ] for contract testing purposes, but will join any squad regardless of Factional alignment. I'm aware I can put money into an "EVE wallet" into a Dust corp. I don't count this as true payment, as there is no guarantee if /when / how it will be available to you at all. I hate to spoil the party, by capsuleers are some sick folk and you accept "payment" at your own risk. A million isk is chump change to capsuleers, so a lot of them are sadistically enjoying the thought of making Dustbunnies march around for funnymoney, which is exactly what EVE wallet isk is to a Dust merc until CCP says otherwise. It certainly can't hurt, but don't let it be the deciding factor in a contract decision GÇô without the ability to spend it it is a promise and nothing more, and not enough to build a game around. The REAL faucet has to open sooner or later, or else this will never properly simulate true economic motivation. There is much talk of "EVE player resentment" towards Dust mercs, and I suspect a bit of it may be wrapped up in this sort of mechanical frustration. I really hope that Dust mercs don't get too discouraged by capsuleer cynicism, from where I sit between the two communites, I don't perceive this tension as a lasting threat. I think its a temporary phenomena that will dissipate as CCP brings more meaningful gameplay into the connection and the two communities have more opportunities to rely on each other. And seriously. Let's show some thick skins everyone. Have a little pride. No more getting butt-hurt because Courthouse said he didn't care about Dustbunnies on a podcast. Whoopdie-freaking-do. Capsuleers don't have a reason to care yet. It's nothing personal. The minute they do, they'll use you. Hell, if its simply FUN they'll use you. But that's on CCP, not on the capsuleers. I don't want anyone going and getting all emo because the big bad spaceman said dustbunnies didn't matter. You will, one day. CCP's commitment to Dust 514's future is rock solid. That much I know and can testify to. **I will also warn you all that the best use of my time is tackling the size and scale of issue discussed in this debriefing here. You're welcome to poke me about specific mechanics, I'm especially interested in the balance between the two games, factional warfare sovereignty, and economy transfer in particular. But lets make efficient use of everyone's time. The CCP developers haven't needed the CSM so far to reach straight to the players about the nuts and bolts GÇô the stats on this gun or the way this vehicle grips the terrain. And neither have you, as I've said they've done a better job than many EVE teams have of communication with players during a work-in-progress. I don't see this changing. You are still much better off going straight to them with these details, and bring to me instead me your hopes/dreams/fears with the bigger picture stuff, which is really where the CSM can make the most of our superior access to preliminary designs. I want to know the why* and the how here. I want to know why you want to fight for capsuleers. Why you'd fight for one group or another. I want to know how you want to be paid. If CCP is going to develop Dust 514 incrementally, evolving with time, we need to tell them what we need, and fast.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:00:00 - [4] - Quote Reserved for future use.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:01:00 - [5] - Quote Reserved for future use.
Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:25:00 - [6] - Quote Ah... Glad to hear CSM folk(s) start to apear here also. Keep up the good work.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 742	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:52:00 - [7] - Quote amagad it's that CSM guy. Good read though, will read over again when I'm less knackered.
steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 338	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:52:00 - [8] - Quote As long as they have I direction im happy :-)
Vance Alken Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 94	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:53:00 - [9] - Quote I really hope those CSM minutes don't read like a 'declassified' government document.

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 136	Posted - 2013.01.11 10:54:00 - [10] - Quote thumbs up


Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.11 11:24:00 - [11] - Quote Vance Alken wrote: I really hope those CSM minutes don't read like a 'declassified' government document. Its usually a condensed report about how they argue about crap and what they finally agree should be a priority to the devs. The CSM basically reads like an after action report in a lot of cases, glossing over the cussing, drinking and calling each other jackwads.
Sven Lindblad Algintal Core Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.01.11 13:59:00 - [12] - Quote Nice hearing from ya.
steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 338	Posted - 2013.01.11 14:11:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vance Alken wrote: I really hope those CSM minutes don't read like a 'declassified' government document. Its usually a condensed report about how they argue about crap and what they finally agree should be a priority to the devs. The CSM basically reads like an after action report in a lot of cases, glossing over the cussing, drinking and calling each other jackwads. So it reads like a declassified government document
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.11 20:47:00 - [14] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: amagad it's that CSM guy. Good read though, will read over again when I'm less knackered. THAT GUY INDEED!! I hope you're knackered from the champagne, and not the gameplay itself. Happy hunting!
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.11 21:48:00 - [15] - Quote Can you jump on Skype please Hans?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2865	Posted - 2013.01.11 22:08:00 - [16] - Quote Hans has offically won my next vote.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2013.01.11 22:42:00 - [17] - Quote +1 but... That's a lot of chatter about ISKs... but if I may be so bold... planetary interaction? From my perspective, the link needs to be stronger than just ISK. EvE with no industry would not function. Dust without industry will not function. It's all about the PI. Even if it starts out as something like a Facebook game for the first few months. Then they can add a similar option to Captains Quaters. All IMHO ;)
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.11 23:02:00 - [18] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: +1 but... That's a lot of chatter about ISKs... but if I may be so bold... planetary interaction? From my perspective, the link needs to be stronger than just ISK. EvE with no industry would not function. Dust without industry will not function. It's all about the PI. Even if it starts out as something like a Facebook game for the first few months. Then they can add a similar option to Captains Quaters. All IMHO ;) I agree with you - this games success will come with how it defines itself differently then all other FPS - changing points on a planetary map isn't a new concept. Neither is conquest of said planet. But industry? God - it makes my mouth water.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:07:00 - [19] - Quote Thanks for posting. At least ccp listens to someone :-)
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:31:00 - [20] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: +1 but... That's a lot of chatter about ISKs... but if I may be so bold... planetary interaction? From my perspective, the link needs to be stronger than just ISK. EvE with no industry would not function. Dust without industry will not function. It's all about the PI. Even if it starts out as something like a Facebook game for the first few months. Then they can add a similar option to Captains Quaters. All IMHO ;) It needs much, MUCH more than just PI adding in. PI's already been confirmed, just people havent paid attention to it.

Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 782	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:41:00 - [21] - Quote Nice post. Flattered to think you consider me a community leader. Personally, I'd say I'm more of a parrot. :P
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:46:00 - [22] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Nice post. Flattered to think you consider me a community leader. Personally, I'd say I'm more of a parrot. :P I disagree, you've done a lot, especially in the early days when there was about 10 of us on the forums. lol. ZionShad on the other hand i think of as more of a parrot.
Gridboss BetaMax. 185	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:49:00 - [23] - Quote Come back to us Hans. We love you. Also, looking forward to the CSM minutes.
crazy space 2100046106 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.01.12 03:55:00 - [24] - Quote PI in eve needs to be scraped and replaced with something that dust works into like we were promised
Absolute Idiom II BetaMax. 68	Posted - 2013.01.12 09:49:00 - [25] - Quote I don't mean to be rude Hans, but I learned nothing new from your posts...
Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2013.01.12 09:56:00 - [26] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: I don't mean to be rude Hans, but I learned nothing new from your posts... I actually read this as a post that more shows to players that there is this CSM thing. And some are propably going WTF? Who is this guy? And maybe, just maybe start finding out what CSM is. But thats just my impressions from it and maybe hopes.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 142	Posted - 2013.01.12 10:45:00 - [27] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: I don't mean to be rude Hans, but I learned nothing new from your posts... That's fine. If you were learning new things from me it would be because I'm breaking another NDA. But -lawyers- and stuff. I don't expect anyone to learning anything new about Dust from that wordy brain-dump, but I hope you at least walked away with a better understanding that the CSM will be watching this merger carefully and is being very open with CCP about the concerns we share with you about how this is all supposed to work You might learn a few new things from the summit minutes, unless CCP wimps out and blacklines all the fun stuff. I talked to Nullarbor yesterday though and encouraged him and his team to be bold and to peel back the curtain for you guys and let the minutes stand as much as possible. The inevitable strikeouts will be all the dates, specific release schedules, etc. That stuff won't ever make it past PR screening. But the game design stuff? That lies in the bravery of the developers, and I'm hoping they'll let you all see as much as the showed the CSM about their future plans. And yes, I'll post again here in the Dust 514 forums once the minutes are out, I don't expect all of you to suddenly become armchair EVE political junkies and camp the Jita Park forums. You still deserve the news that's related to you nonetheless.
Gridboss BetaMax. 185	Posted - 2013.01.12 11:06:00 - [28] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Absolute Idiom II wrote: I don't mean to be rude Hans, but I learned nothing new from your posts... That's fine. If you were learning new things from me it would be because I'm breaking another NDA. But -lawyers- and stuff. I don't expect anyone to learning anything new about Dust from that wordy brain-dump, but I hope you at least walked away with a better understanding that the CSM will be watching this merger carefully and is being very open with CCP about the concerns we share with you about how this is all supposed to work You might learn a few new things from the summit minutes, unless CCP wimps out and blacklines all the fun stuff. I talked to Nullarbor yesterday though and encouraged him and his team to be bold and to peel back the curtain for you guys and let the minutes stand as much as possible. The inevitable strikeouts will be all the dates, specific release schedules, etc. That stuff won't ever make it past PR screening. But the game design stuff? That lies in the bravery of the developers, and I'm hoping they'll let you all see as much as the showed the CSM about their future plans. And yes, I'll post again here in the Dust 514 forums once the minutes are out, I don't expect all of you to suddenly become armchair EVE political junkies and camp the Jita Park forums. You still deserve the news that's related to you nonetheless. I just hope none of them try to turn into Poe. We have one, that's already enough. Also, do you have any rough idea when the minutes will be available?
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 282	Posted - 2013.01.12 14:26:00 - [29] - Quote First time Ive every really been impressed with a CSM dude. Seems like I was wrong and it is more than just a free holiday to iceland by popular vote.
THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 31	Posted - 2013.01.12 15:21:00 - [30] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Essentially the CSM's primary concern is with the level of depth in the EVE-Dust link, and what constitutes true "gameplay" between the two universes. As we've all seen here, Dust 514 and EVE Online still feel very much like separate games longing to dance with each other in a meaningful way. CCP has acknowledged we are still in closed beta, open beta will widen the public conversation and spotlight, but we are gravely concerned with making sure that this beta period - closed and open alike - are clearly messaged as such, because in our opinion that true game between two games needs to be up and running before the two can really be considered "launched" and worthy of the AAA media marketing blitzkrieg. In my personal opinion, this all still feels like a tech demo, and not anything resembling the cinematic moments hinted at in the trailers we've grown to love. This was your primary concern when speaking to CCP? Why are people so impatient? No sh*t CCP acknowledged we are in closed beta. As they said last year at the EVE Fanfest, they are just focussing on getting the core game play going. Some dude even asked if we would one day be able to boards EVE ships and CCP basically said it would be easy to do in the future but...BUT! They wanted to focus on core game play. Is breaching an EVE ship as a DUST merc enough depth for the EVE-DUST link for you? Man...I hope your future sessions come off as being more productive.



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