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Deaths Should Aquire Negative WP

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BigussDikkuss Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2012.12.31 18:33:00 - [31] - Quote Th3rdSun wrote: The problem is that you haven't made a compelling argument to convince anyone that the current system is flawed,other than if you have more kills that the other guy,you should be higher on the scoreboard,which isn't a good argument to begin with. While that was a part of my point, the main gist of what I was trying to convey was that some (well, many according to the responses in this thread) players just jump willy-nilly into battle without a thought in the world in order to get a kill, so their WP goes up, so their SP/ISK rewards go up at the end of the match. They could care less about whether their team wins or loses, because such playstyles drain the clone bank at an alarming speed. If this is the future of Dust 514, populated by a punch of Yahoos who only care about match rewards to level and gear up their own characters, then what is the point in the end? I'm already not exactly sold on the "MMO" nature of this game, and this is yet another flaw in the design to me. Kinda makes me go "Oh. What is that OTHER free-to-play game marketed by Sony which seems more like a true MMO? Planetside 2? And it's SO pretty too..."
Th3rdSun L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 323	Posted - 2012.12.31 18:41:00 - [32] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: Th3rdSun wrote: The problem is that you haven't made a compelling argument to convince anyone that the current system is flawed,other than if you have more kills that the other guy,you should be higher on the scoreboard,which isn't a good argument to begin with. While that was a part of my point, the main gist of what I was trying to convey was that some (well, many according to the responses in this thread) players just jump willy-nilly into battle without a thought in the world in order to get a kill, so their WP goes up, so their SP/ISK rewards go up at the end of the match. They could care less about whether their team wins or loses, because such playstyles drain the clone bank at an alarming speed. If this is the future of Dust 514, populated by a punch of Yahoos who only care about match rewards to level and gear up their own characters, then what is the point in the end? I'm already not exactly sold on the "MMO" nature of this game, and this is yet another flaw in the design to me. Your idea of how people play is a bit skewed.Support roles just by virtue of what they are,are going to die more often than frontline assault and heavies. I think what you really want is for support roles to get less WP than getting less WP for getting killed. But again,you still lack a sufficient and well though out argument that would be more beneficial than the current system.You are just coming across sounding butthurt that you aren't on top of the scoreboard because you have more kills and less deaths than a support guy that's hacking,repairing and reviving. Oh,and BTW,none of this scoreboard watching and stats counting matters right now anyway,because it's just a beta and everything is going to get wiped anyway. And if you're not sold on the MMO style of the game,then what makes you think that you'll like Planeside 2? Furthermore,if you want to play PS2,go play it,no one is stopping you.You can always come back to Dust when it's more polished,you know? I was thinking about checking out PS2 myself,but it would require me to either do some major upgrades to my PC,or just getting a whole new rig to run it.It would basically be a place holder until CCP finishes Dust and it's ready for public consumption,but I've been catching up on other games just so that I don't get totally burnt out on Dust.Sounds like you need to do the same.
Deeez Nuttz Doomheim 12	Posted - 2012.12.31 18:45:00 - [33] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this is the future of Dust 514, populated by a punch of Yahoos who only care about match rewards to level and gear up their own characters, then what is the point in the end? I'm already not exactly sold on the "MMO" nature of this game, and this is yet another flaw in the design to me. Kinda makes me go "Oh. What is that OTHER free-to-play game marketed by Sony which seems more like a true MMO? Planetside 2? And it's SO pretty too..." You made a bad suggestion that you failed to justify in any real way, nobody liked it, so now you're going to take your ball and go home?
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.12.31 19:01:00 - [34] - Quote Coming from MAG. No. You may as well not put an objective on the MAP because everyone will be scared to die because you get negative points for dying/trying. You may as well not be a medic or other class. You just sit and camp on the farthest area and scope for kills. That's how it happened last night, nobody cares for the objectives. Just sit use your sniper and camp for kills. And your 21/1 will be 1/21 because not a single mercenary will be at the center of the battlefield. You'll hate snipers more because of this idea. We must not create another COD clones who cares for kills and not going for the objectives. Dust 514 should orient teamwork, and get rewarded for doing so, even it will cost you more deaths than kills.
Anyanka Shadowmane Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 80	Posted - 2012.12.31 19:02:00 - [35] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Actually, I think it should be negative points for friendly kills once friendly fire is on. I don't see a need to subtract WP because you died. I could get behind this, but losing WP in a setting where death is just part of the learning curve seems wrong to me. Also, some other problems that spring to mind; Which death would you count as losing yourself WP, when you hit the deck, or when you bleed out? What happens if you're revived? Do you get the WP back? Shouldn't the person who revived you get more WP for it too? What happens if you're playing Ambush and are unlucky with your spawns, why should you lose WP for bad luck? What happens if you end up with negative WP? Do you owe SP/ISK to the rest of your team? Personally, I much prefer games like skirmish, where there is a definite objective, to the ambush style 'kill the other guys' sort of game. From the background stuff I've seen and read, death of a clone isn't a problem, other than the loss of resources, completing the objective is what's important.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.12.31 19:44:00 - [36] - Quote The person who went 11-11 is already paying for it in ISK, and still helped their team more than you did. WPs are about contribution, not bragging rights.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 580	Posted - 2012.12.31 19:53:00 - [37] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, Curious, your avatar implies that you run logistics, but your post implies quite the opposite. Just because you ended up with a higher KDR does not mean you contributed to the battle more than the other guy. I've had Logi's in my corp go 0/5 and be top score, and they deserved every last point of it because they allowed the top killers to keep killing. Not all about kills my friend
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.12.31 20:53:00 - [38] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, Curious, your avatar implies that you run logistics, but your post implies quite the opposite. Just because you ended up with a higher KDR does not mean you contributed to the battle more than the other guy. I've had Logi's in my corp go 0/5 and be top score, and they deserved every last point of it because they allowed the top killers to keep killing. Not all about kills my friend In addition to that, I once went 0-3 with a shotgun scout, but ended up having the most WP on my team because of my well placed uplinks and the fact I was the only one hacking an objective (and repeatedly, successfully hacking at that)
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.31 20:55:00 - [39] - Quote Part of the lore is that dust mercs can expend their lives without fear or care. thats the whole point of the exercise, and negative WP detracts from the mindset, dust mercs are supposed to be insanely aggressive and fearless, their bodies as disposable as bullets. They are supposed to be dropped into situations that normally governments would balk at as needlessly wasteful. because there is no messy retreat, no men trapped behind the lines and taken prisoner. If the MCC pops or the situation is untenable the commander punches in a code and all of his soldiers simply drop dead to reawaken at HQ for a massive asschewing, and to resupply and redeploy. Your merc even fitted in proto costs less than a full platoon of gallente volunteer soldiers but can accomplish as much. He costs less than a swarm of amarran paladins or minmatar valklears. Caldari megacorps do not need to pay his family death benefits. Life is cheap. failure means you have to fight the same war tomorrow. killing and dying is now a nine to five job. dying means nothing, and losing WP upon death detracts from that attitude, and the feel of the game. In EVE corps like goonswarm, test, the DRF, Pandemic Legion and many others routinely commit trillions of ISK and lose it in battle, and the capsuleers simply grab another ship and get back in the saddle and regroup or fall back. DUST is not, and should not be any different. Let the thunder roll. And these are the guys who will bankroll us if we prove we are useful, effective and unafraid of doing what it takes to win. for the cost of a single HAC, one dusty can be kept in full proto everything... For a month of nonstop fighting if hes a combat ******. longer if he is a badass.
Belzeebub Santana SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 409	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:02:00 - [40] - Quote Ok this thread reminded me of what was implemented in another game (one of the all time best!) Metal Gear Online. Now the way the penalty system worked was a three fold approach: 1. Emblems 2. a number ranking 3. a letter rating. The emblems were probably the coolest of the penalty and award system. Say if you had a lot of head shot kills, your emblem would be a Eagle. Conversely if you died by a lot of head shots you would earn a Sloth emblem. There were many emblems in the game, and I suggest that people go look them up and come up with some of our own. The numbers I think help see where you are to the next Letter level. But you just don't keep increasing, there are penalties for doing bad and advantages of doing good. Say if you die by a player that isnt as good as you, you lose prestige. If you kill someone better than you, you gain prestige. There are many ways to find out the good players and the bad through stats, but to make it publicly known is either an incentive for people to do better (for those that care) or a badge of honor and also a good recruiting tool. This way you wont really be punished but there is a social aspect that shows what type of player you are.

Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:04:00 - [41] - Quote Oh another solution would be to raise to clone count from 150-200 and in the tutorial section of the game and/or create a introductory battle session similar to Assassin's Creed MP that walk players through the finer points of things in battle, right now it only tells us how to navigate the neocom, marketplace and dropsuit stuff but nothing about in game mechanics. A key mechanic newbies need to know is that dying though adding to your personal stat does not drop the clone count until you bleed out/opt to respawn or if you suit is otherwise unrevivable. If however you are revivable dont simply push square, wait sometimes triage is on the way but not nearby enough to prompt the message that triage is nearby. Something they need to fix, also it seems the help requested does little more than tell me that im requesting help i have not noticed in any way that a person requesting help is asking me for help, the triage symbols appear regardless it seems. It might help us logi's if we know if someone is actively asking for help by changing the color of the triage symbol since flashing just tells us they are close to bleeding out. If they change flashing to indicate help requested they could just make players close to death turn red.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 428	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:22:00 - [42] - Quote As long as you didn't lose the game to clone depletion, deaths mean very little. If they got more points, they deserve to be ahead of you. Because if you 10-1, and the other guy went 11-11, then that person saw more action, did more damage, and as long as you didn't lose to clone depletion, they deserve to be ahead of you.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:23:00 - [43] - Quote Gunner Visari wrote: Oh another solution would be to raise to clone count from 150-200 and in the tutorial section of the game and/or create a introductory battle session similar to Assassin's Creed MP that walk players through the finer points of things in battle, right now it only tells us how to navigate the neocom, marketplace and dropsuit stuff but nothing about in game mechanics. A key mechanic newbies need to know is that dying though adding to your personal stat does not drop the clone count until you bleed out/opt to respawn or if you suit is otherwise unrevivable. If however you are revivable dont simply push square, wait sometimes triage is on the way but not nearby enough to prompt the message that triage is nearby. Something they need to fix, also it seems the help requested does little more than tell me that im requesting help i have not noticed in any way that a person requesting help is asking me for help, the triage symbols appear regardless it seems. It might help us logi's if we know if someone is actively asking for help by changing the color of the triage symbol since flashing just tells us they are close to bleeding out. If they change flashing to indicate help requested they could just make players close to death turn red. There's nothing to learn in game other then cap objectives - so a in game tutorial just seems messy and un-needed. Perhaps instead they should have a small optional tutorial on how to best use a weapon - a small tutorial. Because I swear half the people with MD's kill themselves more then they kill me and beginner snipers may find useful information in a tutorial like drop-uplinks and such they wouldn't of found out otherwise without searching/asking.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:30:00 - [44] - Quote Yes perhaps not a tutorial but definitely a in game tips or out game tips in a optional sections would be nice. And i know a lot of people who didnt know about the clone count mechanic. I didnt realize it myself until i played a game or two of ambush and saw that the clone count didnt drop until i actually was no longer revivable so yea that is something of importance for that mode. As it is most ppl assume oh well i died no point in getting revved and dying again. yes many will do it to prevent themselves from adding to their own death stat, but there are enough players who would endure the risk and trust their teammate to rev them at the opportune moment if they knew that getting revved wont count as a lost clone. Edit- Lets face it people there are only two types of players who come to the forums the rest discover this stuff by playing the game or by some piece of info they see on their screen and say huh i never knew that.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:34:00 - [45] - Quote Actually the best way would be to simply show what armor is your most-used. If you have an atrocious KD and your favored armor is logi, people will be more interested in your average WP from droplinks, hives, revives, hacks and reps than kills. Bad KD with a scout probably means yer running hacksuit to ninja objectives. highly useful. Bad KD in assault means yer new or you suck, or yer running utility. link your hackfit so you dont get laughed at. BAD KD heavies wont change for most until the proto suit question is resolved
Luk Manag of Terror 2	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:35:00 - [46] - Quote I must mention the tactical use of nanite injectors. My friends and I always use nanite injectors - if any one of us are alive at the end of an encounter, we're all revived and back to full health in no time. Everybody dies.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.31 21:40:00 - [47] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: I must mention the tactical use of nanite injectors. My friends and I always use nanite injectors - if any one of us are alive at the end of an encounter, we're all revived and back to full health in no time. Everybody dies. Nanite injectors are actually most efficient in the hands of assault. they can move a bit faster, and take bigger hits for combat recovery. if assault does that i concentrate on reps over triage. works phenomenally well overall.
Tinodi Doomheim 39	Posted - 2012.12.31 22:44:00 - [48] - Quote You've nailed a problem,while totally missing the solution. As stated, negative WP actually encourages more militia running. the problem isn't penalty... have that. the problem is there is zero incentive to win. When that changes, so will the number of militia zombies.
HECATONCHIRES GYGES Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2012.12.31 23:46:00 - [49] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, Your made of thinking does not reward the newb for being where he should be ,trying to hack,heal, and yes kill in the front lines where ho should be.... I will always have more respect for the player that rushes me with MLT drop suit that I kill while charging me...than one who sits back trying to snipe me. I would also take a team full of what I refer to as" try hards" over a team of wanna be snipers.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.31 23:47:00 - [50] - Quote Tinodi wrote: You've nailed a problem,while totally missing the solution. As stated, negative WP actually encourages more militia running. the problem isn't penalty... have that. the problem is there is zero incentive to win. When that changes, so will the number of militia zombies. add a bonus payout of 100 ISK per warpoint. You get more WP achieving than killfarming if you think strategically. I do the logi thing, usually get a 2/7 KD and wind up in the top three 90% of the time. reward value to the team. Killfarmers will get cookies but I can get more WP faster with reps, hacks, assists and revives than you can just rocking out random murders.

Sytonis Auran Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 52	Posted - 2013.01.01 00:04:00 - [51] - Quote The last thing this game needs is the OP's proposal. It'll drive more people to redline sniping and other risk adverse styles.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2013.01.01 00:44:00 - [52] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, It's bad enough I lose ISK and gain a death by dying, but making it so I lose WP as well would be gamebreaking. Just getting a death is bad enough for me (I am a long time FPS player, and this has been the only thing that really ever mattered in every other FPS), but losing ISK as well is about as much as I can take. Actually losing ISK is already taking it too far, we need more BPO's.
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2013.01.01 00:51:00 - [53] - Quote Its a terrible idea, but at the same time I'd love for there to be a reason for the nubs in BPO gear not to go get killed 20 times in an ambush.
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2013.01.01 02:50:00 - [54] - Quote First of all, this belongs in Feedback/Requests. Second, this is a horrible idea, so horrible in fact, that I am angry I can't find the -1 button.
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2013.01.01 02:53:00 - [55] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, Oh, and I forgot to mention, if you actually did something OTHER than shooting people, like hacking an objective, supporting your team-mates, etc. then you would still be higher than that 11/11 guy on the WP leaderboards.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.01 03:00:00 - [56] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: First of all, this belongs in Feedback/Requests. Second, this is a horrible idea, so horrible in fact, that I am angry I can't find the -1 button. +1 to the quoted text In addition, yes OP there are in fact many ways in which someone with a lower KDR than you should be higher on the leaderboard than you are. Effective team play via squad orders, vehicle kills, frequent kill assists, revives, repairs, resupply, et al are good reasons. If someone is killing and taking other actions which contribute to teamwork and victory then they deserve to be higher because they've done more, regardless of comparative KDR. Honestly KDR is a terrible metric, it should be War Points per Death ratio. Or ISK destruction per Death ratio. Or even better yet War Points gained to ISK lost ratio. I'm not saying remove KDR from the boards, but any of the above three are more relevant, and would be more actionable/useful than looking at KDR. The real money and the real challenge will come in Low Sec, and .later Null Sec with battles like Faction Warfare and Sovereignty. Those are objectives battles and the "ambush only" KDR fixated mentality will cost anyone who has it (and by extension their team and corp mates) dearly. 0.02 ISK Cross
Jarlaxle Xorlarrin SyNergy Gaming 67	Posted - 2013.01.01 04:10:00 - [57] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, I hope you're joking. If you're not, you need to go far far far far far away.
ALM1GHTY STATIUS Imperfects Negative-Feedback 261	Posted - 2013.01.01 04:19:00 - [58] - Quote BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, this encourages silly camping, get out of here noob L2go30-0
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.01 04:45:00 - [59] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: BigussDikkuss wrote: If this has been said a 1000 times already, my appologies. But here is time number 1001. If I have 10 kills and 1 death and another player has 11 kills and 11 deaths, no way they should be atop me at the end of the match on the WP "leaderboard". Not that those "leaderboards" mean a darn thing, but still,,,, this encourages silly camping, get out of here noob L2go30-0 and ye shall know the troll by his name, for he claimeth his Epeen is greater than yours with the mere mention of his name. Plus he makes obviously idiotic posts that even Obvious Troll who is Obvious takes issue with. and Alm1ghty your logical capacity approaches that of a schizophrenic three year old with a Pixie Stix, so you don't get to say much here. You're the one of the ones I see most frequently calling for nerfs to anything that can whack an assault suit running an AR, without a biblical-level miracle behind them so you don't get to call others to task for trolling. But its a sign that things are getting rediculous when a troll this obvious gets SRS rezponz
Draco Dustflier Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 45	Posted - 2013.01.01 08:39:00 - [60] - Quote nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what if i spawn directly in front of a mass driver or a heavy or a shotgun? thasanofair!



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