DUST Search - Laser Rifle DIscourse [Logic Bomb Edition]

Talos Alomar wrote:

Leither Yiltron wrote:

This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants.

Yeah. I want that. Why should a proud soldier of the Amarr empire be forced to use a caldari slugthrower to damage enemies at long range?

besides - there are a few reasons the laser file seems OP but it actually isn't.

the first and foremost reason is that damage mods are bugged. they are not supposed to stack this well, as the item description says there should be a stacking penalty. removing that extra 10-20% damage that many lasers get from 2-3 complex damage mod will mean the damage when the beam is fully heated will be much less.

the second reason the LR seems OP is that the old counters that used to work don't anymore. An AR cannot out shoot a LR at range anymore. Hybrid blasters (the AR is an example, the shotgun is another) are not long range weapons. they have crazy dps in CQC but don't expect too much from it at range. get in close and you'll have a better chance.

the third reason the LR seems op is the fact that not all the weapons that will be in dust have been released yet. who knows what will be added to change things up so don't call in the nerf-hammer onto the LR quite yet.

these factors all snowball into lasers seeming like the deadliest thing out there but in reality the things that need to be changed aren't so much the gun itself it is a few things surrounding the gun.

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Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.29 21:43:00 - [1] - Quote This thread is going to address the LR complaints. So please, if you have a rebuttel (and im not a bias *****, i believe maybe some can shed light on the otherside), make sure it is a rebuttel and NOT a broken record of arguments ive already debunked. If you want to argue with my logic, that is one thing, if you are going to repeat in some variation the quotes i am arguing, with out addressing my counter argument, then you are an insignificant critical thinker, and tbh, probably shouldn't have a right to vote in your country. Logic people, logic, thats the currency of this topic. OH MY GOD, ITS A LASER RIFLE! "It only takes 5 seconds on anybody and it kills you!" There are very few weapons that would not kill you in optimal if placed on you accurately for a full 5 seconds, LRs also build up heat damage. "Well, I've been killed in two seconds!" First, if your a scout, shut your mouth and get out of my topic. Otherwise, you were in optimal range, probably shield heavy (LRs deal shield bonus dmg), and the LR was most likely already heating up, the longer it runs (while draining ammo) the more dmg it deals. You also could of been in a weak suit, standard/militia are easy to make quick work of. "Well i'm a heavy! Explain that you condescending stain to my eyes"** You have some disadvantages, such as slowness, its easy to keep a LR's accuracy on something that cant zigzag/move out of the way, meaning it will take the full brunt. This being said, ive never seen a heavy go down in 2 seconds from an LR, not saying it doesnt happen, weaker suits maybe its possible with a Viziam, but ive never seen it. Since naturally heavies are armour heavy they have the most resistance, to some degree it does make up for thier slowness. Its no secret that higher-end heavy gear needs a buff, as well, so remember dont always look at the weapon killing you and think it's the weapon. I'd still say as far as LRs go vs Heavies, heavies do the job of tanking the longest in regards to LR, i wouldnt say its entirely broken. If you're in optimal range, that is your issue and you need to get out of it, sometimes you cant, be a little more aware next time. Next! "Its OP! The thing is unstoppable, simply put." Its called CQC, just because your not equipped to deal with every single scenario does not make a weapon OP. You shouldnt be able to have a fair chance against an LR at range (excluding snipers obviously who beat everyone in range), the point is your in optimal. KEEP IN MIND LRs DO NOT PERFORM AT ALL AT CLOSE RANGE. I would argue LRs have the hardest counter in the game, because you are simply **** (especially as a logi which has no sidearm, as i am) if someone comes in close. DO YOU WANT EVERY WEAPON TO HAVE THE SAME STATS, LET THERE BE 0 VARIATION OR CLOSE TO IT? (If you answered yes to this rhetorical question, you're one of the reasons this game might die. Feel happy, killer of my dreams, slaughterer of competitive play. If this is the overwhelming feeling, i guess im just a runner in a speed walker's world) And if you die from an LR 1v1 at close range its not the weapon, its because you are honestly not a good player (or are having a bad day) dont be butthurt, im stating a fact not an insult. We were all there once, but you're certainly not getting better by placing blame on other things.** Next! "Well good luck getting close when you get pegged down all the time from a distance, you have no hope against it." If you walked into a position where you are pinned down/in the open/in no way able to fall back to pull off a flank, then your playing the FPS wrong. Situational awareness is #1 in larger map FPS' and is essential in becoming a good player. Being in its optimal range will obviously get you killed quicker, keep this in mind when you see someone with an LR If you are not soloing and have corp mates/friends, organize a flank, your pinned down so his attention is on you, probably thirsty for a kill, get your buddies to find away around, or atleast alleviate pressure so you have a chance to fall back. Any LR player in corp of competent people will have players around him supporting him, so if that squad beats you, dont blame it on the LR, they have greater situational awareness and chemistry, case closed. Not the LR's fault. LR has a hard counter, you KNOW what you need to do, its about completing that goal and its far from impossible, especially if you're with buddies. Game is not meant to be for a bunch of pubstars and solo artists, its ultimately a team game and has been presented as such by CCP, so when people need to really think through what they are arguing and NOT BE EXPECTING TO HAVE EQUAL FOOTING 1v1 IN EVERY SCENARIO, because that is not the point of the game. Things can become OP, when there is never a hard counter to a weapon in combination with brute strength, that = OP (I.e. missile turrets of a couple builds ago), but do not start feeding CCP OP complaints because you are not equipped or are not as skilled as other players. This is addressed equally to some top notch players who think, for whatever reason, in any given situation they should be able to see the same raw strength/dmg they see usually when kiling people. Use you're head you egomaniacs, there are counters for things, if you are in their optimal and not doing the correct moves to counter, you won't live.
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming 641	Posted - 2012.12.29 21:49:00 - [2] - Quote too much logic in this... expect to be trolled.
Hobos-N-Guns Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire 44	Posted - 2012.12.29 21:58:00 - [3] - Quote Well said +1
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:06:00 - [4] - Quote You know that the only thing wrong with the LR right now is that you can boost its range to the absurd with the sharpshooter skill. Everything else is pretty much fine. The heat buildup might need to be sped up a tiny bit to bring the LR more in line with the recoil of traditional guns, but everything else...yeah, there's no reason to rant about it.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:06:00 - [5] - Quote head diplo goin innnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:11:00 - [6] - Quote +1 OP... +1....
SickJ French unchained corporation 48	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:20:00 - [7] - Quote LRs are also sniper bait. That beam is visible a mile away.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:21:00 - [8] - Quote YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! Nah, just kidding. Great post OP.
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:36:00 - [9] - Quote I think most people who feel that laser rifles are overpowered don't really understand the weapon mechanics behind it. It truly is a unique weapon the breaks away from the same old SMG/AR/Shotty/Sniper mold that is in every single game. This is why I was drawn to it. If you feel the laser rifle is overpowered. Try it and see for yourself.
JW v Weingarten SyNergy Gaming 300	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:39:00 - [10] - Quote Where are the haters? looks like this orbital logic strike owned them

Enkidu Camuel Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 69	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:41:00 - [11] - Quote Finally a really good thread! +1 OP, good job.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.12.29 23:55:00 - [12] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: You know that the only thing wrong with the LR right now is that you can boost its range to the absurd with the sharpshooter skill. Everything else is pretty much fine. The heat buildup might need to be sped up a tiny bit to bring the LR more in line with the recoil of traditional guns, but everything else...yeah, there's no reason to rant about it. Some facts from Mr Musta Tornius: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=356717#post356717 Starting from Lasers: Max Range: 81m Optimal Range: 61 - 78m Meta Level: 1 Elm-7 Laser Rifle Max Range: 84m Optimal Range: 62 - 79m Meta Level: 4 Viziam Laser Rifle Max Range: 84m Optimal Range: 62 - 79m Meta Level: 8 And here are some of the most popular AR's: Tactical Assault Rifle Max Range: 110m Optimal Range: 1 - 71m Meta Level: 2 GEK-38 Assault Rifle Max Range: 83m Optimal Range: 1 - 37m Meta Level: 5 'Gorewreck' GK-13 Burst Assault Rifle Max Range: 88m Optimal Range: 1 - 39m Meta Level: 7 'Killswitch' GEK-38 Assault Rifle Max Range: 92m Optimal Range: 1 - 41m Meta Level: 7 Duvolle Assault Rifle Max Range: 87m Optimal Range: 1 - 39m Meta Level: 8 Clearly your statement as it is is incorrect as the LR range is very much the same as AR's (with the exception of TAR's which are longer although have issues). Skills are not the issue because sharpshooter skille increases by percentage which is the same to both weapons. BUT the laser rifles are able to project their damage in inverse manner to AR's: while AR's are now getting inaccurate over range, laser stays accurate. But that is balanced nicely by total lack of stopping power in CQC which is very important.
ALM1GHTY STATIUS Imperfects Negative-Feedback 261	Posted - 2012.12.29 23:57:00 - [13] - Quote Laser riflez are simple OP, I have level one with a toxin and can destroy anyone, far, medium, cqc, no problem. please do not tell me that my own weapon isn't OP because it is, and it's militia.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:19:00 - [14] - Quote Just because you put a lot of effort into making your post seem like a weapon is not OP does not mean it's not OP.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:49:00 - [15] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Just because you put a lot of effort into making your post seem like a weapon is not OP does not mean it's not OP. And? Any rebuttal? Any opinion on the topic at hand, not the aesthetics of the post?
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:51:00 - [16] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: BUT the laser rifles are able to project their damage in inverse manner to AR's: while AR's are now getting inaccurate over range, laser stays accurate. This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:54:00 - [17] - Quote MItt R0mney wrote: I think most people who feel that laser rifles are overpowered don't really understand the weapon mechanics behind it. It truly is a unique weapon the breaks away from the same old SMG/AR/Shotty/Sniper mold that is in every single game. This is why I was drawn to it. If you feel the laser rifle is overpowered. Try it and see for yourself. This is my feeling too, it is such a unique weapon with a style you really dont see in any kind of FPS. The hard-counter balances it very well and i think a lot of people dont have an appreciation for the thought process that went behind balancing the weapon. Most people just feel if they get outplayed/aren't suited for a particular situation that it must be an OP weapon, they really do have to understand the mechanics of the weapon.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:57:00 - [18] - Quote MItt R0mney wrote: I think most people who feel that laser rifles are overpowered don't really understand the weapon mechanics behind it. It truly is a unique weapon the breaks away from the same old SMG/AR/Shotty/Sniper mold that is in every single game. This is why I was drawn to it. If you feel the laser rifle is overpowered. Try it and see for yourself. I'd like to bring up one game I played with you. qua and You had me trapped behind a rock/cover while you fired with Lasers. I ran around and up close, and took you out easily because your laser did nothing to me at that range, but by that time Aqua's laser was charged enough to finish me off. Balance.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:01:00 - [19] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: BUT the laser rifles are able to project their damage in inverse manner to AR's: while AR's are now getting inaccurate over range, laser stays accurate. This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants. They are not replacing snipers, snipers have enormous range, it's kind of outlandish to think LRs are a 'healthy replacement' for snipers. LR players are still required to be on the battlefield, still very susceptible to flanking and tactics, a sniper can be up in the mountains with little fear of anything but other snipers, a person with an OB and a grudge, or someone rattled enough to waste his time ttrying to flank a sniper (which often, a sniper will detect before it happens since they have the height advantage) You took a soundbyte of what he said and completely ignored LRs have a heavy counter of CQC as they are essentially useless while still being amongst the fray. Flanking is one of the oldest and most common tactics in warfare, flanking is your friend, head on attacks are not the answer. A solo LRman will not be able to prevent being slaughtered against someone who makes an effort to flank, one in a squad can amongst pubsters, against another squad of organized players its best tactics win. LR being out of the norm does not make it OP
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:12:00 - [20] - Quote Good luck with that, then, dude. I'm not averse to other people taking low-efficiency options in they really want to do that.

Sytonis Auran Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 52	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:17:00 - [21] - Quote I haven't used the laser rifle as much as in Codex, but there was a problem there where 1 nanohive could never be drained by repeatedly recharging ammo unlike other weapons. I could never run out of ammo no matter how long I stayed alive and shooting. Keep the range it operates at, especially short range ineffectiveness, but damage build up and overheating need tweaking.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:19:00 - [22] - Quote Okay play against them on the ambush map for the asia game show and tell me that they dont have ridiculous properties. For everyone who say they arent effective in CQC, they are indeed effective unless you are literally within spitting distance of them. This is because the way they work with increasing damage for duration rather than range. Meaning they are effective at range because by the time the beam hits you it has been travelling for a long enough time that its hot enough to burn, at close range same thing because ppl can keep them swinging like a light saber. They do need a tweak but where that tweak is im not sure. It could and should likely be in the physics of the weapon either it needs to overheat quicker or take longer to cooldown so that it is more likely to overheat if you dont kill your target quickly and are constantly needed to refocus the beam if you can keep the aim steady and pulse the beam to keep it from overheating. If those things are done then a complimentary increase in either clip size or max clips need to be given to balance the weapon out. Fact is the ineffective at close range argument is not enough of an argument to state the weapon has balance
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 391	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:20:00 - [23] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants. Yeah. I want that. Why should a proud soldier of the Amarr empire be forced to use a caldari slugthrower to damage enemies at long range? besides - there are a few reasons the laser file seems OP but it actually isn't. the first and foremost reason is that damage mods are bugged. they are not supposed to stack this well, as the item description says there should be a stacking penalty. removing that extra 10-20% damage that many lasers get from 2-3 complex damage mod will mean the damage when the beam is fully heated will be much less. the second reason the LR seems OP is that the old counters that used to work don't anymore. An AR cannot out shoot a LR at range anymore. Hybrid blasters (the AR is an example, the shotgun is another) are not long range weapons. they have crazy dps in CQC but don't expect too much from it at range. get in close and you'll have a better chance. the third reason the LR seems op is the fact that not all the weapons that will be in dust have been released yet. who knows what will be added to change things up so don't call in the nerf-hammer onto the LR quite yet. these factors all snowball into lasers seeming like the deadliest thing out there but in reality the things that need to be changed aren't so much the gun itself it is a few things surrounding the gun.
Sytonis Auran Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 52	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:53:00 - [24] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants. Yeah. I want that. Why should a proud soldier of the Amarr empire be forced to use a caldari slugthrower to damage enemies at long range? besides - there are a few reasons the laser file seems OP but it actually isn't. the first and foremost reason is that damage mods are bugged. they are not supposed to stack this well, as the item description says there should be a stacking penalty. removing that extra 10-20% damage that many lasers get from 2-3 complex damage mod will mean the damage when the beam is fully heated will be much less. the second reason the LR seems OP is that the old counters that used to work don't anymore. An AR cannot out shoot a LR at range anymore. Hybrid blasters (the AR is an example, the shotgun is another) are not long range weapons. they have crazy dps in CQC but don't expect too much from it at range. get in close and you'll have a better chance. the third reason the LR seems op is the fact that not all the weapons that will be in dust have been released yet. who knows what will be added to change things up so don't call in the nerf-hammer onto the LR quite yet. these factors all snowball into lasers seeming like the deadliest thing out there but in reality the things that need to be changed aren't so much the gun itself it is a few things surrounding the gun. I have yet to use damage mods with a laser rifle, yet can rack up 3 kills with an ELM on the HK assault game. Granted, people heavily cluster on that map usually in 1 of 2 places, but damage should be considered without complex mods too.
Silax Minour Doomheim 29	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:29:00 - [25] - Quote Am I the only one that just runs straight at LR users? Get closer, their dam/acc goes down while mine goes up. Simple enough. Not perfect, for sure, but works about 2/3rds of the time.
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1060	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:56:00 - [26] - Quote be carefull what you wish for. A faster heat up is aswell a faster increase of damage. If you dont realise that you can make it OP cause when that thing gets temperature its a killing machine beyond believe. The heat up bar on the side (like with a HMG) is not just there as a warning when you should stop shoting its aswell there to tell you that the laser will do much more damage so it has 2 functions. So instead of 30 rounds of a laser rifle to kill some 1 you might will only need 10 when you would add more heat up by firing. Its like playing with fire.
Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:19:00 - [27] - Quote Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:31:00 - [28] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. And still time elapses between spotting, so LR can heat up, and nabbing the kill. Giving people an ability to spot you. Some people will heat up before they hit a target to stay clandestine, and thats a viable strategy, but fact is it doesnt deal automatic damage like an AR
Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:44:00 - [29] - Quote Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. This being said i call BS on the 'first half a clip' part, maybe 1 kill first half, 3 kills second half , because second half is usually the well heated end of it. This is significant because it means there is still time before you spot the prey and actually nab the kill a proto AR can't kill any decent heavy in one clip. I can't 6 piece anything with a AR, so yeah. I'm sorry you such a scrub that you can't do it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Man I have 8 pieced with one clip on the Viziam. So stop this stupid BS that it ain't OP. Most of you guys don't see it anyways because many of you guys back out at the sight of an Imperfects squad. The other day we made a whole team quit. 4v8 and they all just backed out, with some notable names of course. It is like with any gun, doesn't mean you can't do it, means that it is impossible. Lasers are easy mode.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:47:00 - [30] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. This being said i call BS on the 'first half a clip' part, maybe 1 kill first half, 3 kills second half , because second half is usually the well heated end of it. This is significant because it means there is still time before you spot the prey and actually nab the kill a proto AR can't kill any decent heavy in one clip. I can't 6 piece anything with a AR, so yeah. Edited my post a a bit, but i can still reply to this as it doesnt pertain to edit. Yeah an LR can kill a decent heavy in one clip, if a heavy stays in the open to be hit and at a distance. But that's where specialization and team tactics some into play. Which then draws a question as to how 'decent' they are to be in the open. In similiar sense, so can a proto AR if a heavy made himself easy prey like that. With an AR you also get a lot of mobility, so that makes up for it, where as an LR user you dont have that mobility



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