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![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
One of my biggest pet peeves in this game, and in real life, is wasting money on something that doesn't last. Because I feel if I purchase an item, it should last long enough for me to get my money's worth, plus some.
The big problem with Dust, is that even the most expensive suit loadout can be lost in an instant, there is no guarantees. Whether it be from legitimate PvP, by means of lag, frame-rate problems, disconnections, being unlucky, or by spawning right in front of an enemy... there is so many ways to lose a suit without getting much, or any, use out of it.
I often find this to be the case when I use my decent suits. I have this nice suit that I pay a premium for, only to lose it way too quickly and be out all that ISK with little or nothing to show for it. This irritates me to no end, and I find I use my cheapest garbage suits most of the time to avoid wasting all that ISK. Not only does this give me a disadvantage on the battlefield, but it also makes skilling up for better suits and equipment a moot point, because if I don't get my money's worth on a 65k suit and never want to use it, then why would I want to buy a more expensive suit and load it with more expensive modules, weapons and equipment? Due to the low payout of ISK, even my 65k suit would give me a loss of ISK if I lost 2 or 3 of them in a single match. So why would I ever want to buy and use a 100k, 200k, 700k+ suit?
Granted this is a beta, and it has many problems that will eventually get fixed. But even with a near glitch-free and lag-free game, even the best suit can be lost instantly for very stupid or unforeseen reasons. I am playing a game to have fun, but I do not have fun losing something so easily that costs so much, even if it is in-game money that costs nothing.
--
With that said, here is what I think needs to be done to make this game much more enjoyable. We need BPO's for every weapon, suit, module, and piece of equipment. And I am not talking about AUR BPO's, but ISK based ones too.
Now I know there is going to be many people that believe that this is a game of consequences and should remain that way, and having BPO's for everything would negate that. But hear me out, what if the ISK for these BPO's was extremely high? Say for example the BPO for the GEK-38 could be 10 million ISK. That is a pretty hefty chunk of Dust currency for a single weapon right? So you may ask, why would I pay 10 million for one weapon but get so butt-hurt about losing a 65k suit every so often in matches? Simple, it gives me something to work towards that lets me use that weapon indefinitely without cost, which means I could lose the weapon for some stupid reason in the game, but not have to worry about losing ISK. That to me would be well worth the initial high payout.
Plus the idea of consequences is still true, as if you are going to plop down millions of ISK for a single weapon, you better be darn sure you are going to use it a lot! As in my example, 10 million for the GEK-38 would be equivalent of about 600 deaths using that weapon, as the GEK is a little more than 17k right now. But even given that statistic, I still believe it would be worth it, as instead of playing the game always worrying and getting irritated about losing ISK if I use my good suit and die, I can work towards buying an entire BPO fitted suit, so that one day I can use it as much as I want and only worry about my KDR.
To me the idea of working towards something so beneficial will make the game exponentially more enjoyable for players, because as it stands now I really don't feel like spending hard-earned SP to upgrade my suit, as that only means more ISK lost when I use it and lose it.... I am basically upgrading stuff just to be more aggravated when I lose it. That to me is not what a FPSMMORPG/whatever game should be about, I play games to escape stress and to enjoy myself, not to get extremely irritated when I permanently lose something I worked so hard on to build and pay for.
-- CONTINUED ON NEXT POST -- |
![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
CONTINUED...
--
So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them.
But leukoplast, what about BPO vehicles? Honestly I do not think vehicles should have BPO's in the same manner as the suits (as I described above), because they can already survive an entire round without worrying about being insta-killed by something really stupid like suited players can. Suits of any caliber, except perhaps heavies, are extremely vulnerable. Vehicles on the other hand get exponentially stronger and more versatile as they upgrade, and have a much higher chance of survivability due to unforeseen events. A militia suited player can still take down a proto suited player, but I seriously doubt a starter tank with barely any shields and armor could even begin to touch a proto tank.
--
In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to. |
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Altessan Vigarde
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
84
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Or you could, you know, just play COD. |
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slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
462
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hellstorm scrub gg, expensive suits are what people bust out in corporation battles but we all know your corps policy on fighting a skilled oppenent... |
![DUST Fiend DUST Fiend](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_3_male_128.jpg)
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1900
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
I haven't read the whole thing yet, I just want to say that I still have yet to put a single SP over lv 2 suits because the cost is simply no where near worth what you get for it. |
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1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
87
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's my understanding that if you're good, EVE corps will buy you **** to use. They've got billions, so you can get (almost) negative KDR using all proto suits and still not go broke if you get paid.
Also, loot won @ the end of a round can be top-tier gear. That is free. |
![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Altessan Vigarde wrote:Or you could, you know, just play COD.
Come on, I spent a lot of time writing this out and putting decent thought into it, you could at least read it before poo-pooing the idea.
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Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
409
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it. |
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Galthur
CrimeWave Syndicate
22
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
25 mil at least for type 1 weapons |
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Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would already have my main fits full bpo. I have purchased over a thousand blindfire ar, assault type-ii, complex damage and shield extenders already. So, if bpo was available that cheap in isk I would have full bpo of my main fits already.
I have 600+ of my main ar in stock and enough isk on hand to buy a bpo b-series at the prices you suggested. i figure I have spent 60million restocking my fits this build. The lack of need to restock would mean I could make enough isk in a night to buy another advanced bpo, or grind for proto suits. By the time i had the skill points to use a proto suit I would have the isk to by a vk.1 bpo. Maybe the isk for a duvoulle ar bpo by then too.
Bpo for standard gear are fine, since you need to move on to better stuff at some point. Bpo of adv and proto would remove the risk, even if a gek-38 bpo was 100 million isk it would be a bargain in long run. A few very rare higher level bpo are fine, like the tester tournament prize lav, but buying them on market would break the economy. Highest purchased bpo should be a type-ii suit, any more could break the game. |
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Omnipotens Zitro
Doomheim
425
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE.
BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. |
![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:It's my understanding that if you're good, EVE corps will buy you **** to use. They've got billions, so you can get (almost) negative KDR using all proto suits and still not go broke if you get paid.
See that's the thing, I have over 20 million ISK right now, cost is not am issue at the moment for me. It's the fact that I am just throwing away ISK (and AUR) every time I die and rarely have much to show for it... especially if I die for really stupid reasons (which seems to be the case about 90% of the time). As somebody who is fairly budget conscious in real life, I find it extremely aggravating to waste money, even if it's just in-game money. Worse if that currency is AUR!
The idea of working towards something that may cost a lot up front, but in the end lets you use it forever, would be amazing for this game. I like working towards gaining SP and ISK, but if upgrading means I lose more when I die, then where is the motivation? |
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DJINN Marauder
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
254
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Interesting idea. But I thought that the market would be completely player/eve based come launch. If it would be, then this could potentially ruin the market system later on(meaning a year or years) since eventually people would get enough money to buy them all. |
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DTOracle
Universal Allies Inc.
95
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
You do understand that CCP needs to make money off this right? I agree ISK pay outs should be higher. But otherwise the system is fine the way it is. What u suggest would dissuade people from spending real money, & dust will go no where like that. |
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Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Omnipotens Zitro wrote:Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE.
BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. I couldn't agree more |
![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Belzeebub Santana wrote:Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it.
This is true, but only if the reason for dying was a legitimate one, meaning something I earned by my own mistake or by poor tactics. Spawning in front of an enemy and getting insta-killed is not much of a learning experience. In fact, it seems most all of my deaths when using good gear are due to ridiculous reasons that have nothing to do with my skill or ability, but rather pure luck.
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![DJINN leukoplast DJINN leukoplast](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
DTOracle wrote:You do understand that CCP needs to make money off this right? I agree ISK pay outs should be higher. But otherwise the system is fine the way it is. What u suggest would dissuade people from spending real money, & dust will go no where like that.
AUR BPO's would still be there for those who don't want to take the time to earn/pay that much ISK to buy weapons and gear. Just as AUR items are now, it will still be a "shortcut".
In fact, I bet they would make a LOT more money of there was AUR BPO's for everything I spoke of. I mean heck, the Raven suit now is what, 12,500 AUR? That is $6.25 if 40k AUR is $20. CCP would clean up, they are probably already making decent money from all the people buying AUR in the beta, I know several people who have already spent hundreds on AURUM purchases. Could you imagine the insane influx of AUR purchases if BPO's for every suit, weapon, equipment and module were available for AURUM purchase?
There would still be other AURUM things to be purchased that aren't permanent, like vehicle stuff, boosters, UVT etc etc.
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Omnipotens Zitro
Doomheim
425
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Posted - 2012.12.14 03:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Belzeebub Santana wrote:Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it. This is true, but only if the reason for dying was a legitimate one, meaning something I earned by my own mistake or by poor tactics. Spawning in front of an enemy and getting insta-killed is not much of a learning experience. In fact, it seems most all of my deaths when using good gear are due to ridiculous reasons that have nothing to do with my skill or ability, but rather pure luck.
Then you should be complaining to CCP to fix said things. This thread is pointless. |
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Marston EV
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Altessan Vigarde wrote:Or you could, you know, just play COD. Come on, I spent a lot of time writing this out and putting decent thought into it, you could at least read it before poo-pooing the idea.
dont worry about what everyone else here is saying. Eventually they will have BPO's and also BPC's. They wont be cheap, but at the same time it'll probably still cost something to manufacture the weapon. In eve, if you get a BPO to a certain ship that doesn't mean you can just poop out that ship as many times as you want, it means that you now have the ability to go and gather the raw materials needed to make it. Im not sure how they would incorporate that sort of thing in Dust, but believe me, they would never put a BPO of an advanced weapon in before they find some way to balance it.
And as for your argument about risk/reward. I have a 130,000 isk fitting that i use daily, the trick to making money with it is to not die. Today i lost about three of those suits, but i gained about 3,000,000 isk, so it doesn't really matter (especially considering i have 50 of those fittings saved up already anyway). I understand that the game can cheat you out of suits sometimes, but if you want to do good in competetive matches, your only choice is to risk it. Big risk = Big reward |
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Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
0
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
A counter thought... EVE BPO still cost money to make the ship, in the form of minerals. Atm we are not thinking in the since of raw mats but just the isk for the suit or the bpo, that provides the suits with free raw mats. So if CCP were to even consider your idea they would have to incure some kind of loss besides hurt feelings and losing the match. Hence the cost of the suits, now i would turn your concerns around and maybe start a discussion on how the prices things on the market are very off... (then again when this goes live NPC's wont be selling the suits but real players.) I just hope that players can make most of the isk gear unlike eve, where you can make the meta level 0 and the t2 of most things :(
On the point of spawning in front of an enemy. Spawn in the back. use drop moduel and put it is a safe place near where you want to be. I wish there was more control on where at a letter i spawn but if i chose to spawn on a aggressed letter then i expect to be dropped in a pot of water (hope the fire isn't no hot yet.) |
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DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Omnipotens Zitro wrote:Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE.
BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain.
Dust and EVE are two completely different games with completely different gameplay, you can't expect them to operate in an identical fashion. Dust is primary a FPS that has elements of RPG (leveling up), it is really nothing like how EVE is played (market and upgrading style aside).
Now if Dust was an open world game consisting entirely of vehicle play where battles are not constantly occurring in regulated matches with map boundaries and rules, then I might agree... but it's not. It's a FPS game in a restricted non open-world style that is time-based or objective-oriented. A game where even the best suited player dies repeatedly.
I don't know much about EVE, but let me ask you... does EVE have matchmaking where it puts 8 dreadnoughts against 8 dreadnoughts and respawns them when they blow up? Does it do this 24/7 and is it the only way to play EVE? |
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Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
That's all se have because WE'RE STILL IN BETA |
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Omnipotens Zitro
Doomheim
425
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Omnipotens Zitro wrote:Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE.
BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. Dust and EVE are two completely different games with completely different gameplay, you can't expect them to operate in an identical fashion. Dust is primary a FPS that has elements of RPG (leveling up), it is really nothing like how EVE is played (market and upgrading style aside). Now if Dust was an open world game consisting entirely of vehicle play where battles are not constantly occurring in regulated matches with map boundaries and rules, then I might agree... but it's not. It's a FPS game in a restricted non open-world style that is time-based or objective-oriented. A game where even the best suited player dies repeatedly. I don't know much about EVE, but let me ask you... does EVE have matchmaking where it puts 8 dreadnoughts against 8 dreadnoughts and respawns them when they blow up? Does it do this 24/7 and is it the only way to play EVE?
I fully understand the Dust and EVE are and will be two totally different games. You are stating that everybody should be able to buy BPO's of everything that they are skilled into.
Totally kills the idea and purpose of the EVE/DUST universe. You are asking for a COD or any other generic FPS game, where you level up and can use that weapon you unlocked all the time with out consequence.
Seriously this is stuff that a kid comes up with. That's why COD and other FPS is so dumbed down and terrible.
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Free Beers
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1031
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Posted - 2012.12.14 04:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Please just go play another game. I would get banned for the shear amount of ***** words I would have to use to properly respond to your OP. I'm pretty sure CCP would agree with me
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Dissonant Zan
157
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Generic Response: "HTFU"
OP I read through your entire post and the meaning behind these 4 letters was designed specifically for people like you. It was a good try but **** happens, learn to deal with it. |
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Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance
152
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:Please just go play another game. I would get banned for the shear amount of ***** words I would have to use to properly respond to your OP. I'm pretty sure CCP would agree with me
ROFL........ |
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Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance
152
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'd have no problems with BPO's for suits. Provided each suit had to be manufactured. While they're not as complex as a ship. It would still take a few minutes per suit to manufacture it. And materials for them..... |
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Bane Nrahk
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bad OP No No No NO
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
428
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
BPO everything will not promote anything.
Kids will just throw militias at eachother until they have enough SP and ISK to get a BPO Vk.0 and autocannon. Then what fun is it? It's like not even worth playing because there wouldn't be any motivation to earn ISK. Vehicles? Take them out with your proto forge BPO.
Also I read your whole post so I'm not ranting about three sentences.
To put your words in an analogy, it would be like saying that if you had one million dollars, you could buy a machine that would magically poop out food for you for the rest of your life for free.
DJINN leukoplast wrote: I care not for anyone but myself and I eat bear excrement You need help |
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Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
90
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Uhm... since we're talking BPO's, where is my heavy tribute suit?
@OP - That was a well worded post with thought put into it. Though I have to disagree with your idea. The cost for and of every death is one of the good things in this game imo. But I do hope there is some T1 BPO's planned ie weapons, modules... Having anything more than T1 BPO's might be a bit much in a game like this. Imagine...A full proto heavy kitted squad. In a pub match.... granted no one would force you to use them but lets be honest here... |
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Free Beers
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1031
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Octavian Vetiver wrote:I'd have no problems with BPO's for suits. Provided each suit had to be manufactured. While they're not as complex as a ship. It would still take a few minutes per suit to manufacture it. And materials for them.....
There won't be BPO for suits above standard EVER or anything else for that matter.
stuff like suits/weapons/equipment/modules wont be manfactured. Bigger things like warbarg and MCC will probably be |
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poopchucker9900
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
30
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:CONTINUED...
--
So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them.
But leukoplast, what about BPO vehicles? Honestly I do not think vehicles should have BPO's in the same manner as the suits (as I described above), because they can already survive an entire round without worrying about being insta-killed by something really stupid like suited players can. Suits of any caliber, except perhaps heavies, are extremely vulnerable. Vehicles on the other hand get exponentially stronger and more versatile as they upgrade, and have a much higher chance of survivability due to unforeseen events. A militia suited player can still take down a proto suited player, but I seriously doubt a starter tank with barely any shields and armor could even begin to touch a proto tank.
--
In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to. I bought a car with real money and I still own it. I bought a drop suit with fake money and lost it, I wasn't upset.....because it didn't cost me anything.....it's a mother kitten game |
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Oede Usaema
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.12.14 05:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
The only problem here is that you seem to think that you deserve to run around in full proto gear without any consequence just because you've got the SP for it.
The risk of using an expensive loadout is directly proportional to how well a player can discern the state of play in a current game, and it's a good thing that players need to make a cognitive decision in deciding what they bring to the field as more choice always leads to a better game experience.
It's this risk of losing that 300k loadout that is one of the only things that remotely balances the constant noob pubstomps we keep seeing between low and high SP characters, removing it would disastrously imbalance games in favour of the established playerbase as it stops ISK risk from being a factor and makes SP the main check in deciding the outcome of a game.
If you, personally, cannot handle the risk factor, are unable to play to a standard to make your investment viable (this includes deciding to spawn at undefended points, for which you fully deserve to die for), are unable to bring enough friendly support and communication to a match, nor capable of accurately predicting how much resistance you'll face in your glistening noob shaming proto set, then you always have the choice of using a low cost variant. The magic of the skill system means you're still going to have that edge against most other plays due to higher SP, you just won't be able to use it as so much of a crutch for being terrible at the game.
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Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
319
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Posted - 2012.12.14 06:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Quote:In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to.
You are completely wrong. Dust have two things going for it which no other FPS competes with. 1. Persistant universe. 2. Risk vs Reward.
For the past two decades FPS have NEVER had risk vs reward on this scale. If non militia BPOs continue to enter into Dust, the game WILL die. Remember, the lifespan of an FPS is very short. Dust has the potential to have a decade lifespan or more like Eve does. |
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DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 06:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Omnipotens Zitro wrote:
I fully understand the Dust and EVE are and will be two totally different games. You are stating that everybody should be able to buy BPO's of everything that they are skilled into.
Should be able to buy and actually being able to buy, are two different things. The 10 million for the GEK-38 in my OP, was just some random number to show as an example, it could very well be 20 million, 30 million... 50 million. I also stated in the OP that perhaps money coming from EVE would not be allowed to be used in purchase of these BPO's, only ISK earned directly from the player in the game.
The extremely high ISK price and inability for a quick buy from a billion+ EVE donation, would indeed make this nothing like COD, and could take a very long time to accumulate that amount of cash (depending on how much it would cost of course.)
Omnipotens Zitro wrote:
Totally kills the idea and purpose of the EVE/DUST universe. You are asking for a COD or any other generic FPS game, where you level up and can use that weapon you unlocked all the time with out consequence.
The consequence is the very high ISK price and inability to get it from anything other than playing the game and completing matches, which makes it something the player would really have to think about before unloading their life-savings on a single weapon, piece of equipment, module, or suit.
Also just because somebody might eventually have a fully BPO proto suit, doesn't mean they won't want to try another class and start from scratch again. I know personally I would like to do something other than assault, and if i ever get to the point of maxing out all my skills for that role, I will likely then move onto something else. This idea certainly wouldn't kill the EVE/Dust universe, more than likely it would be the opposite, as people will have even more motivation to play and work their way up in terms of SP, ISK and upgrades.
Just as I said in the OP, I am at the point now where I don't really want to upgrade, as it just means paying and wasting more ISK each time I die, no matter if my death was my fault or not. How people find this fun is beyond me, I find it irritating and stressful.
Omnipotens Zitro wrote:
Seriously this is stuff that a kid comes up with. That's why COD and other FPS is so dumbed down and terrible.
I suppose I just don't know what it is like to play games nowadays, I thought it was to escape and have fun, to get away from real life for a few moments and enjoy a fake artificial world that does things one cannot do in real life.
I don't need to make-believe myself losing money in a fake world and stressing over it, I have plenty of that in my real life. That might have been something I would have desired when I was 8, but now I know what it's like and I don't strive to replay it in a video game. Playing daddy-doing-his-taxes, isn't exactly something grown gamers should be seeking out.
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Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
Welcome to New Eden, where when you get blown up your crap gets destroyed.
The Main difference between EVE and Dust514 BPO's is that in eve you build ships from BPO's and those go boom, currently in dust BPO's require no items to build, this might change in the future, but for the moment we don't have an industry to build gear.
So should we get an industry system, sure I could see BPO's to build suits from, otherwise, no, you want good crap spend the cash and get it, if not use militia kit. |
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Oede Usaema
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
First things first dude, if you're getting stressed over not being able to use a proto loadout every spawn, why are you doing it? What's wrong with using cheaper items? Why do you think you MUST USE THE MOST EXPENSIVE STUFF OR NOTHING AT ALLLLLLL? Once you realise that there's absolutely no need for you to pimp yourself out at every turn, you will enjoy the game a lot more and maybe even improve your actual skills rather than relying on over-bloated equipment, because at the moment, it sounds a lot more like you just enjoy rolling pubs without expending any brainpower, which might very well be entertaining for you personally, but where's the upshot for anyone else? Stop being so selfish. |
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DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:39:00 -
[38] - Quote
Reimus Klinsman wrote:
You are completely wrong. Dust have two things going for it which no other FPS competes with. 1. Persistant universe. 2. Risk vs Reward.
For the past two decades FPS have NEVER had risk vs reward on this scale. If non militia BPOs continue to enter into Dust, the game WILL die. Remember, the lifespan of an FPS is very short. Dust has the potential to have a decade lifespan or more like Eve does.
Ok, but what is the reward? SP for upgrading skills, giving minuet upgrades to various things. And ISK for buying gear, and re-buying gear lost in those matches.
The thing is, even a proto suit, gear and maxed out skills, is no guarantee of anything. I could spawn in with that suit and die a second later due to something completely out of my control regardless of whatever tactics and skill I use.
If I am to buy such a grossly expensive suit, it should at least be practically invulnerable, but it's not (for good reasons that I agree with). So therein lays the problem, proto suits/gear and upgraded skills do give an advantage, but is it worth it? Is the risk worth the reward? And if not, why would anybody want to waste that much time and effort to achieve them just to lose it in a blink of an eye? If such a top-tier suit and gear costs so much, then why is it so fragile? I mean generally in real life when you buy something that is 10x more expensive, you are getting something that is hopefully 10x better. So how come not in Dust?
Answer to that, is balance. For which I agree with. But this balance throws a kink in the chain of reward, because of how the system is setup now, that reward is more akin to a slap in the face in comparison to the massive amount of risk taken.
I mean seriously, say you use three 200k suits in a match, and lose them all. The reward for this is getting 250k ISK and a measly amount of SP. Now you are out 350k... so where is the reward? And when would that risk actually payout something that makes it a real reward? It's not as if the suits are much harder to kill than standard suits, so what... all that money just for a few extra slots that likely won't even get used before dying?
If I had some kind of guarantee that I could live a lot longer using these suits, then yes they would be worth the risk. But that is not the case. So many times I have been near insta-killed by a militia rifle even if I have some massive amount of shields/armor. Heck, if the payout in ISK was multiplied as much as the difference in cost for the suit, then it would balance out. But it doesn't... so you take the risk of using a 700k suit for what.... at most 400k if you went 40-0 and capped every objective?
Now tanks on the other hand, actually do have rewards. As the more you upgrade, they become exponentially more difficult to take out. Same goes for heavies (which I would say that they should not have these BPO's for the same exact reason). I imagine that is what it's like in EVE, as I assume people arent losing these massive and expensive ships at the same rate we lose suits in these 15-25 minuet matches. They pay a lot, and have a lot to risk.. but in the end are much more capable and harder to take out. So they live longer and get more rewards.
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DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
Oede Usaema wrote:First things first dude, if you're getting stressed over not being able to use a proto loadout every spawn, why are you doing it? What's wrong with using cheaper items? Why do you think you MUST USE THE MOST EXPENSIVE STUFF OR NOTHING AT ALLLLLLL? Once you realise that there's absolutely no need for you to pimp yourself out at every turn, you will enjoy the game a lot more and maybe even improve your actual skills rather than relying on over-bloated equipment, because at the moment, it sounds a lot more like you just enjoy rolling pubs without expending any brainpower, which might very well be entertaining for you personally, but where's the upshot for anyone else? Stop being so selfish.
If you read the OP, you would have read that I actually use my garbage suit most of the time. And yes, I actually have a lot more fun with it because I know I am losing so little due to several BPO's installed into it. |
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Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:54:00 -
[40] - Quote
To add to my point and address your question of what reward we get for the risk I submit to following. We have less than 20% of the final game. We are testing the mechanics, but we are operating in 1/10th of the possible map areas, we do not yet have the conquest or FW systems in place, we do not have industry systems, nor the market systems, we do not have planet ownership, and we don't have the full corp system.
I find it futile and slightly short sighted to talk of balance, the need for better loot, ect when we do not yet have the full systems for these things. it's like asking for a car to go faster, when your still building the frame, you have no idea how fast it will go since it's not done yet.
If you want to change something fine, but please let us wait to see what CCP is gonna do with it before you want it changed. |
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Sergeant Wiznowski
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
38
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote: Answer to that, is balance. For which I agree with. But this balance throws a kink in the chain of reward, because of how the system is setup now, that reward is more akin to a slap in the face in comparison to the massive amount of risk taken.
I mean seriously, say you use three 200k suits in a match, and lose them all. The reward for this is getting 250k ISK and a measly amount of SP. Now you are out 350k... so where is the reward?
Simple. It's a punishment for using proto suits on a pub match not a reward. Your reward is ability to add more modules for a high level fight. It's your choice to run pub match in this gear.
Ability to balance costs vs income is a sign of successful merc and Dust is meant by CCP to be ISK sink.
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Martin0 Brancaleone
Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS.
191
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:CONTINUED...
But hear me out, what if the ISK for these BPO's was extremely high? Say for example the BPO for the GEK-38 could be 10 million ISK. That is a pretty hefty chunk of Dust currency
So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them.
1) people can get 10 million isk in eve in 10 minutes
2) Dust currency ALREADY is the same of EVE, ISK are ISK in both games, people would just send a billlion from theyr eve characters and buy all the bpo's. |
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ArMaGeDoN The Cat
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
157
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
NO BAD DJINN leukoplast BAD BAAAAAAAAAAAAD *Sprays him with water* |
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IamI3rian
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
11
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Didn't read the whole thing, franky I don't have time. I regret that though, since I've played more than a couple games with/against you...
That said, my "recent" strategy is to play with my best/most expensive gear while I'm still earning skill points. Around, say, friday, when I'm down to triple digits for SP during matches, I'll switch to VERY cheap/free suits and rake in the isk.
For example, my first two games on Wednesday (fighting for a spot, squadless in the Quafe matches) I burned 2.8M on suits. I'm doing MUCH better now, but I'm certain by sat morning the latest, I'll be back to earning 250k or so isk per match.
This way, I'll have more than enough to restock those expensive suits when I'm back to earning SP again, and still be able to afford 30+ copies of the new gear my SP unlocked. = D
In short, only spend isk on good suits when it's going to earn you SP... otherwise, freebie stuff is the way to go.
Excepting corp matches and whatnot of course, and the occasional suit "burn" for the win is always worth it.
That said, we've got more than one guy in our corp with decent LAV's for running over those 100k (and sometimes Aur too) suits that are just not going down with bullets. = D
But yeah, that's my suggestion. If this is completely off topic at this point, I apologize. = / |
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Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
437
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Posted - 2012.12.14 12:39:00 -
[45] - Quote
I have 150 billion in EVE... That's functionally equivalent of having BPO's of all the top gear and vehicles, I could literally play 24/7 with top gear on my passive earnings alone.
Now if there's BPO's then you remove the ISK sink that DUST is supposed to be. |
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ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
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Posted - 2012.12.14 13:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.............................![Straight](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_straight.png)
BRUTAL GAME, DESERVES BRUTAL LOSSES, RISK / REWARD NEXT WE WILL WANT BPO TANKS!!!!
Cmon man!! we are STICKMEN WE DIE HORRIBLE WAYS AND PAY FOR IT. AID and GET AIDED OFF. SHOULD BE OUR MOTTO. LOL
END TRANSMISSION.................................![Straight](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_straight.png) |
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UnknowingTea
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
21
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
I generally agree with the OP -- I think it is possible to make BPOs for many things and keep it balanced due to the high cost/rarity of the BPOs (as the OP described). Of course, I think there will always be high-end items with no BPOs (e.g. officer weapons), and the only real argument is where that high end is.
A also don't think this idea is broken because Eve players have billions of ISK. Players with Eve money could lose gear in battle with almost no consequences, so they would effectively have BPOs for everything anyway. |
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dent 308
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
966
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
I was really surprised they released the tribute suits. Non-destroyable things is very much against the spirit of the game/universe. Rolling out your proto gear is supposed to be risky, but since your risking more you get a chance a greater reward. Getting flattened immediately by a LAV or orbital is frustrating but well within the bounds of the game. |
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Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
EVE RULES APPLY HERE: ONLY DEPLOY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO REPLACE. |
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semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
317
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
I disagree with this. I personally only have adv suits with proto weapons/modules right now so my good suits cost 130K and I am easily making profit with these suits. The times I never die or switch out into a cheaper suit before I die more than makes up for the few games where I die 2-3 times with my 130K suits. |
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Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2012.12.14 14:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Also, BPC and BPO distinction will make a difference once CCP adds resources into the game. What if to use a BPO, the corp has to have a certain number of materials, and if the corp runs out, you can't deploy that fitting? |
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Thorn Wraith
Planetary Logistics
0
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:47:00 -
[52] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:EVE RULES APPLY HERE: ONLY DEPLOY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO REPLACE.
Glad someone finally said this. |
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Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.12.14 15:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
If we want industry, and I mean Dust side, non reliant on EvE production, then anything above lvl 1 skill req should NEVER, in all 7 years it will take to skill up, EVER go above lvl 1 req's. I.E. no BPO type2 suits. No BPO Sagaris (gunloggi is legit. Because there are already BPO saga). No BPO tac rifles. You get the idea. |
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Onieros The Void
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.14 16:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:If we want industry, and I mean Dust side, non reliant on EvE production, then anything above lvl 1 skill req should NEVER, in all 7 years it will take to skill up, EVER go above lvl 1 req's. I.E. no BPO type2 suits. No BPO Sagaris (gunloggi is legit. Because there are already BPO saga). No BPO tac rifles. You get the idea. What is this delicious BPO sagaris you speak of?
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Fleen Costell'o
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
10
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Posted - 2012.12.14 16:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
It is foolish to use an expensive suit on a shared server. |
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Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
216
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Posted - 2012.12.14 17:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
One Universe, One War
Sorry, but I doubt CCP wants to degrade the spirit of the universe just for mercs in drop suits. Not only is what you are asking against the concept of the game but you mention wanting BPO's just for drop suits but not for vehicles and then you want CCP to restrict a corp from spending EvE ISK on these items when corporations will have capsuleers and mercs???
Really??? It's one economy and eventually one market. How would you suggest they handle your request? Marked ISK? ![What?](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_question.png)
If you don't want to lose prototype suits don't buy, fit and deploy them. Simple solution |
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BASSMEANT
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
109
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Posted - 2012.12.14 17:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
"only to lose it way too quickly and be out all that ISK with little or nothing to show for it. This irritates me to no end"
i've been waiting to see this in print for a while now, long before open beta.
quit playing as solo players wearing clan tags and learn the simplest forms of organization. quit running around all the time. slow is smooth and smooth is fast. say that until it sinks in. or don't, really don't care... just good to see that this game has at least a few sharp edges that the casuals can't dodge.
the fun part is knowing if it's this bad for you... just think how bad it's gonna be when it sinks in for the millions of baby cows out there, all milk fed and wobbly, who are gonna tip over crying when their favorite set of snuggies armor gets smashed on day 5.
Peace B |
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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
219
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Posted - 2012.12.14 22:35:00 -
[58] - Quote
This is possibly the worst suggestion I've ever read on these forums.
No amount of money or time spent playing should provide unlimited numbers of any decent gear. Even if you somehow segregate Eve Isk from Dust Isk (a ridiculous concept in itself), this whole idea would break the entire idea of a free market controlled by the players.
Seriously, if you really want a suit that doesn't ever run out, save up your 100 million Isk and buy 1000 of them, then work on learning how to play so you die less and that'll probably last you long enough until you get bored and bugger off. |
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