DUST Search - BPO's and the future of Dust. (long read)

DJINN leukoplast wrote:

Omnipotens Zitro wrote:

Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE.

BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain.

Dust and EVE are two completely different games with completely different gameplay, you can't expect them to operate in an identical fashion. Dust is primary a FPS that has elements of RPG (leveling up), it is really nothing like how EVE is played (market and upgrading style aside).

Now if Dust was an open world game consisting entirely of vehicle play where battles are not constantly occurring in regulated matches with map boundaries and rules, then I might agree... but it's not. It's a FPS game in a restricted non open-world style that is time-based or objective-oriented. A game where even the best suited player dies repeatedly.

I don't know much about EVE, but let me ask you... does EVE have matchmaking where it puts 8 dreadnoughts against 8 dreadnoughts and respawns them when they blow up? Does it do this 24/7 and is it the only way to play EVE?

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DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:12:00 - [1] - Quote One of my biggest pet peeves in this game, and in real life, is wasting money on something that doesn't last. Because I feel if I purchase an item, it should last long enough for me to get my money's worth, plus some. The big problem with Dust, is that even the most expensive suit loadout can be lost in an instant, there is no guarantees. Whether it be from legitimate PvP, by means of lag, frame-rate problems, disconnections, being unlucky, or by spawning right in front of an enemy... there is so many ways to lose a suit without getting much, or any, use out of it. I often find this to be the case when I use my decent suits. I have this nice suit that I pay a premium for, only to lose it way too quickly and be out all that ISK with little or nothing to show for it. This irritates me to no end, and I find I use my cheapest garbage suits most of the time to avoid wasting all that ISK. Not only does this give me a disadvantage on the battlefield, but it also makes skilling up for better suits and equipment a moot point, because if I don't get my money's worth on a 65k suit and never want to use it, then why would I want to buy a more expensive suit and load it with more expensive modules, weapons and equipment? Due to the low payout of ISK, even my 65k suit would give me a loss of ISK if I lost 2 or 3 of them in a single match. So why would I ever want to buy and use a 100k, 200k, 700k+ suit? Granted this is a beta, and it has many problems that will eventually get fixed. But even with a near glitch-free and lag-free game, even the best suit can be lost instantly for very stupid or unforeseen reasons. I am playing a game to have fun, but I do not have fun losing something so easily that costs so much, even if it is in-game money that costs nothing. -- With that said, here is what I think needs to be done to make this game much more enjoyable. We need BPO's for every weapon, suit, module, and piece of equipment. And I am not talking about AUR BPO's, but ISK based ones too. Now I know there is going to be many people that believe that this is a game of consequences and should remain that way, and having BPO's for everything would negate that. But hear me out, what if the ISK for these BPO's was extremely high? Say for example the BPO for the GEK-38 could be 10 million ISK. That is a pretty hefty chunk of Dust currency for a single weapon right? So you may ask, why would I pay 10 million for one weapon but get so butt-hurt about losing a 65k suit every so often in matches? Simple, it gives me something to work towards that lets me use that weapon indefinitely without cost, which means I could lose the weapon for some stupid reason in the game, but not have to worry about losing ISK. That to me would be well worth the initial high payout. Plus the idea of consequences is still true, as if you are going to plop down millions of ISK for a single weapon, you better be darn sure you are going to use it a lot! As in my example, 10 million for the GEK-38 would be equivalent of about 600 deaths using that weapon, as the GEK is a little more than 17k right now. But even given that statistic, I still believe it would be worth it, as instead of playing the game always worrying and getting irritated about losing ISK if I use my good suit and die, I can work towards buying an entire BPO fitted suit, so that one day I can use it as much as I want and only worry about my KDR. To me the idea of working towards something so beneficial will make the game exponentially more enjoyable for players, because as it stands now I really don't feel like spending hard-earned SP to upgrade my suit, as that only means more ISK lost when I use it and lose it.... I am basically upgrading stuff just to be more aggravated when I lose it. That to me is not what a FPSMMORPG/whatever game should be about, I play games to escape stress and to enjoy myself, not to get extremely irritated when I permanently lose something I worked so hard on to build and pay for. *-- CONTINUED ON NEXT POST --*
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:12:00 - [2] - Quote *CONTINUED...* -- So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them. But leukoplast, what about BPO vehicles? Honestly I do not think vehicles should have BPO's in the same manner as the suits (as I described above), because they can already survive an entire round without worrying about being insta-killed by something really stupid like suited players can. Suits of any caliber, except perhaps heavies, are extremely vulnerable. Vehicles on the other hand get exponentially stronger and more versatile as they upgrade, and have a much higher chance of survivability due to unforeseen events. A militia suited player can still take down a proto suited player, but I seriously doubt a starter tank with barely any shields and armor could even begin to touch a proto tank. -- In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to.
Altessan Vigarde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 84	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:14:00 - [3] - Quote Or you could, you know, just play COD.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 462	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:16:00 - [4] - Quote Hellstorm scrub gg, expensive suits are what people bust out in corporation battles but we all know your corps policy on fighting a skilled oppenent...
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1900	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:22:00 - [5] - Quote I haven't read the whole thing yet, I just want to say that I still have yet to put a single SP over lv 2 suits because the cost is simply no where near worth what you get for it.
1CLIP 1KILL Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 87	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:23:00 - [6] - Quote It's my understanding that if you're good, EVE corps will buy you **** to use. They've got billions, so you can get (almost) negative KDR using all proto suits and still not go broke if you get paid. Also, loot won @ the end of a round can be top-tier gear. That is free.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:24:00 - [7] - Quote Altessan Vigarde wrote: Or you could, you know, just play COD. Come on, I spent a lot of time writing this out and putting decent thought into it, you could at least read it before poo-pooing the idea.
Belzeebub Santana SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 409	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:28:00 - [8] - Quote Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it.
Galthur CrimeWave Syndicate 22	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:29:00 - [9] - Quote 25 mil at least for type 1 weapons
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:29:00 - [10] - Quote I would already have my main fits full bpo. I have purchased over a thousand blindfire ar, assault type-ii, complex damage and shield extenders already. So, if bpo was available that cheap in isk I would have full bpo of my main fits already. I have 600+ of my main ar in stock and enough isk on hand to buy a bpo b-series at the prices you suggested. i figure I have spent 60million restocking my fits this build. The lack of need to restock would mean I could make enough isk in a night to buy another advanced bpo, or grind for proto suits. By the time i had the skill points to use a proto suit I would have the isk to by a vk.1 bpo. Maybe the isk for a duvoulle ar bpo by then too. Bpo for standard gear are fine, since you need to move on to better stuff at some point. Bpo of adv and proto would remove the risk, even if a gek-38 bpo was 100 million isk it would be a bargain in long run. A few very rare higher level bpo are fine, like the tester tournament prize lav, but buying them on market would break the economy. Highest purchased bpo should be a type-ii suit, any more could break the game.

Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:35:00 - [11] - Quote Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE. BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:36:00 - [12] - Quote 1CLIP 1KILL wrote: It's my understanding that if you're good, EVE corps will buy you **** to use. They've got billions, so you can get (almost) negative KDR using all proto suits and still not go broke if you get paid. See that's the thing, I have over 20 million ISK right now, cost is not am issue at the moment for me. It's the fact that I am just throwing away ISK (and AUR) every time I die and rarely have much to show for it... especially if I die for really stupid reasons (which seems to be the case about 90% of the time). As somebody who is fairly budget conscious in real life, I find it extremely aggravating to waste money, even if it's just in-game money. Worse if that currency is AUR! The idea of working towards something that may cost a lot up front, but in the end lets you use it forever, would be amazing for this game. I like working towards gaining SP and ISK, but if upgrading means I lose more when I die, then where is the motivation?
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 254	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:39:00 - [13] - Quote Interesting idea. But I thought that the market would be completely player/eve based come launch. If it would be, then this could potentially ruin the market system later on(meaning a year or years) since eventually people would get enough money to buy them all.
DTOracle Universal Allies Inc. 95	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:44:00 - [14] - Quote You do understand that CCP needs to make money off this right? I agree ISK pay outs should be higher. But otherwise the system is fine the way it is. What u suggest would dissuade people from spending real money, & dust will go no where like that.
Vermaak Kuvakei Doomheim 88	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:46:00 - [15] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE. BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. I couldn't agree more
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:47:00 - [16] - Quote Belzeebub Santana wrote: Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it. This is true, but only if the reason for dying was a legitimate one, meaning something I earned by my own mistake or by poor tactics. Spawning in front of an enemy and getting insta-killed is not much of a learning experience. In fact, it seems most all of my deaths when using good gear are due to ridiculous reasons that have nothing to do with my skill or ability, but rather pure luck.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:55:00 - [17] - Quote DTOracle wrote: You do understand that CCP needs to make money off this right? I agree ISK pay outs should be higher. But otherwise the system is fine the way it is. What u suggest would dissuade people from spending real money, & dust will go no where like that. AUR BPO's would still be there for those who don't want to take the time to earn/pay that much ISK to buy weapons and gear. Just as AUR items are now, it will still be a "shortcut". In fact, I bet they would make a LOT more money of there was AUR BPO's for everything I spoke of. I mean heck, the Raven suit now is what, 12,500 AUR? That is $6.25 if 40k AUR is $20. CCP would clean up, they are probably already making decent money from all the people buying AUR in the beta, I know several people who have already spent hundreds on AURUM purchases. Could you imagine the insane influx of AUR purchases if BPO's for every suit, weapon, equipment and module were available for AURUM purchase? There would still be other AURUM things to be purchased that aren't permanent, like vehicle stuff, boosters, UVT etc etc.
Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.12.14 03:57:00 - [18] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Belzeebub Santana wrote: Read it and no. This is not the way to go, losing isk every death teaches you many things and is one of the original things this game has going for it. This is true, but only if the reason for dying was a legitimate one, meaning something I earned by my own mistake or by poor tactics. Spawning in front of an enemy and getting insta-killed is not much of a learning experience. In fact, it seems most all of my deaths when using good gear are due to ridiculous reasons that have nothing to do with my skill or ability, but rather pure luck. Then you should be complaining to CCP to fix said things. This thread is pointless.
Marston EV Doomheim 75	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:05:00 - [19] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Altessan Vigarde wrote: Or you could, you know, just play COD. Come on, I spent a lot of time writing this out and putting decent thought into it, you could at least read it before poo-pooing the idea. dont worry about what everyone else here is saying. Eventually they will have BPO's and also BPC's. They wont be cheap, but at the same time it'll probably still cost something to manufacture the weapon. In eve, if you get a BPO to a certain ship that doesn't mean you can just poop out that ship as many times as you want, it means that you now have the ability to go and gather the raw materials needed to make it. Im not sure how they would incorporate that sort of thing in Dust, but believe me, they would never put a BPO of an advanced weapon in before they find some way to balance it. And as for your argument about risk/reward. I have a 130,000 isk fitting that i use daily, the trick to making money with it is to not die. Today i lost about three of those suits, but i gained about 3,000,000 isk, so it doesn't really matter (especially considering i have 50 of those fittings saved up already anyway). I understand that the game can cheat you out of suits sometimes, but if you want to do good in competetive matches, your only choice is to risk it. Big risk = Big reward
Anstis Anion BurgezzE.T.F 0	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:15:00 - [20] - Quote A counter thought... EVE BPO still cost money to make the ship, in the form of minerals. Atm we are not thinking in the since of raw mats but just the isk for the suit or the bpo, that provides the suits with free raw mats. So if CCP were to even consider your idea they would have to incure some kind of loss besides hurt feelings and losing the match. Hence the cost of the suits, now i would turn your concerns around and maybe start a discussion on how the prices things on the market are very off... (then again when this goes live NPC's wont be selling the suits but real players.) I just hope that players can make most of the isk gear unlike eve, where you can make the meta level 0 and the t2 of most things :( On the point of spawning in front of an enemy. Spawn in the back. use drop moduel and put it is a safe place near where you want to be. I wish there was more control on where at a letter i spawn but if i chose to spawn on a aggressed letter then i expect to be dropped in a pot of water (hope the fire isn't no hot yet.)

DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:19:00 - [21] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE. BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. Dust and EVE are two completely different games with completely different gameplay, you can't expect them to operate in an identical fashion. Dust is primary a FPS that has elements of RPG (leveling up), it is really nothing like how EVE is played (market and upgrading style aside). Now if Dust was an open world game consisting entirely of vehicle play where battles are not constantly occurring in regulated matches with map boundaries and rules, then I might agree... but it's not. It's a FPS game in a restricted non open-world style that is time-based or objective-oriented. A game where even the best suited player dies repeatedly. I don't know much about EVE, but let me ask you... does EVE have matchmaking where it puts 8 dreadnoughts against 8 dreadnoughts and respawns them when they blow up? Does it do this 24/7 and is it the only way to play EVE?
Vermaak Kuvakei Doomheim 88	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:31:00 - [22] - Quote That's all se have because WE'RE STILL IN BETA
Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:34:00 - [23] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Man this is like Care Bears asking for infinite ships! Dumbest idea ever. If you spent this much time writing this, you should of at least spent more than double the time researching or just playing EVE. BPO's will be the rarest and most expensive items for dust.(the higher tier gear) Only the most powerful and richest corps will have a strangle hold on almost all of them. A few might get lucky and keep them. Only the militia and special event items will be easy to obtain. Dust and EVE are two completely different games with completely different gameplay, you can't expect them to operate in an identical fashion. Dust is primary a FPS that has elements of RPG (leveling up), it is really nothing like how EVE is played (market and upgrading style aside). Now if Dust was an open world game consisting entirely of vehicle play where battles are not constantly occurring in regulated matches with map boundaries and rules, then I might agree... but it's not. It's a FPS game in a restricted non open-world style that is time-based or objective-oriented. A game where even the best suited player dies repeatedly. I don't know much about EVE, but let me ask you... does EVE have matchmaking where it puts 8 dreadnoughts against 8 dreadnoughts and respawns them when they blow up? Does it do this 24/7 and is it the only way to play EVE? I fully understand the Dust and EVE are and will be two totally different games. You are stating that everybody should be able to buy BPO's of everything that they are skilled into. Totally kills the idea and purpose of the EVE/DUST universe. You are asking for a COD or any other generic FPS game, where you level up and can use that weapon you unlocked all the time with out consequence. Seriously this is stuff that a kid comes up with. That's why COD and other FPS is so dumbed down and terrible.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1031	Posted - 2012.12.14 04:53:00 - [24] - Quote Please just go play another game. I would get banned for the shear amount of ***** words I would have to use to properly respond to your OP. I'm pretty sure CCP would agree with me
Dissonant Zan 157	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:07:00 - [25] - Quote Generic Response: "HTFU" OP I read through your entire post and the meaning behind these 4 letters was designed specifically for people like you. It was a good try but **** happens, learn to deal with it.
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:08:00 - [26] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Please just go play another game. I would get banned for the shear amount of ***** words I would have to use to properly respond to your OP. I'm pretty sure CCP would agree with me ROFL........
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:13:00 - [27] - Quote I'd have no problems with BPO's for suits. Provided each suit had to be manufactured. While they're not as complex as a ship. It would still take a few minutes per suit to manufacture it. And materials for them.....
Bane Nrahk Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:28:00 - [28] - Quote Bad OP No No No NO
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 428	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:48:00 - [29] - Quote BPO everything will not promote anything. Kids will just throw militias at eachother until they have enough SP and ISK to get a BPO Vk.0 and autocannon. Then what fun is it? It's like not even worth playing because there wouldn't be any motivation to earn ISK. Vehicles? Take them out with your proto forge BPO. Also I read your whole post so I'm not ranting about three sentences. To put your words in an analogy, it would be like saying that if you had one million dollars, you could buy a machine that would magically poop out food for you for the rest of your life for free. DJINN leukoplast wrote: I care not for anyone but myself and I eat bear excrement You need help
Khal V'Rani Nephilim Initiative 90	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:48:00 - [30] - Quote Uhm... since we're talking BPO's, where is my heavy tribute suit? @OP - That was a well worded post with thought put into it. Though I have to disagree with your idea. The cost for and of every death is one of the good things in this game imo. But I do hope there is some T1 BPO's planned ie weapons, modules... Having anything more than T1 BPO's might be a bit much in a game like this. Imagine...A full proto heavy kitted squad. In a pub match.... granted no one would force you to use them but lets be honest here...



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