DUST Search - BPO's and the future of Dust. (long read)

DJINN leukoplast wrote:

CONTINUED...

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So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them.

But leukoplast, what about BPO vehicles? Honestly I do not think vehicles should have BPO's in the same manner as the suits (as I described above), because they can already survive an entire round without worrying about being insta-killed by something really stupid like suited players can. Suits of any caliber, except perhaps heavies, are extremely vulnerable. Vehicles on the other hand get exponentially stronger and more versatile as they upgrade, and have a much higher chance of survivability due to unforeseen events. A militia suited player can still take down a proto suited player, but I seriously doubt a starter tank with barely any shields and armor could even begin to touch a proto tank.

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In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to.

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Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1031	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:49:00 - [31] - Quote Octavian Vetiver wrote: I'd have no problems with BPO's for suits. Provided each suit had to be manufactured. While they're not as complex as a ship. It would still take a few minutes per suit to manufacture it. And materials for them..... There won't be BPO for suits above standard EVER or anything else for that matter. stuff like suits/weapons/equipment/modules wont be manfactured. Bigger things like warbarg and MCC will probably be
poopchucker9900 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 30	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:50:00 - [32] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: *CONTINUED...* -- So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them. But leukoplast, what about BPO vehicles? Honestly I do not think vehicles should have BPO's in the same manner as the suits (as I described above), because they can already survive an entire round without worrying about being insta-killed by something really stupid like suited players can. Suits of any caliber, except perhaps heavies, are extremely vulnerable. Vehicles on the other hand get exponentially stronger and more versatile as they upgrade, and have a much higher chance of survivability due to unforeseen events. A militia suited player can still take down a proto suited player, but I seriously doubt a starter tank with barely any shields and armor could even begin to touch a proto tank. -- In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to. I bought a car with real money and I still own it. I bought a drop suit with fake money and lost it, I wasn't upset.....because it didn't cost me anything.....it's a mother kitten game
Oede Usaema Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 19	Posted - 2012.12.14 05:54:00 - [33] - Quote The only problem here is that you seem to think that you deserve to run around in full proto gear without any consequence just because you've got the SP for it. The risk of using an expensive loadout is directly proportional to how well a player can discern the state of play in a current game, and it's a good thing that players need to make a cognitive decision in deciding what they bring to the field as more choice always leads to a better game experience. It's this risk of losing that 300k loadout that is one of the only things that remotely balances the constant noob pubstomps we keep seeing between low and high SP characters, removing it would disastrously imbalance games in favour of the established playerbase as it stops ISK risk from being a factor and makes SP the main check in deciding the outcome of a game. If you, personally, cannot handle the risk factor, are unable to play to a standard to make your investment viable (this includes deciding to spawn at undefended points, for which you fully deserve to die for), are unable to bring enough friendly support and communication to a match, nor capable of accurately predicting how much resistance you'll face in your glistening noob shaming proto set, then you always have the choice of using a low cost variant. The magic of the skill system means you're still going to have that edge against most other plays due to higher SP, you just won't be able to use it as so much of a crutch for being terrible at the game.
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 319	Posted - 2012.12.14 06:52:00 - [34] - Quote Quote: In conclusion, I truly believe BPO's are going to be the key to making Dust more popular, mainstreamed, and fun. As I can't see myself enjoying this game for too long if upgrading my suits and weapons, means I lose more and more ISK each time I die. Upgrading should be fun and something to look forward to, but I find it difficult to look forward to upgrading because it simply means I end up wasting more ISK every time I die (especially if the reason for dying is extremely lame). Having BPO's for every weapon, suit, module and equipment at a premium ISK payout, provides long-term goals that are extremely beneficial, sought after and what most FPS players are used to. You are completely wrong. Dust have two things going for it which no other FPS competes with. 1. Persistant universe. 2. Risk vs Reward. For the past two decades FPS have NEVER had risk vs reward on this scale. If non militia BPOs continue to enter into Dust, the game WILL die. Remember, the lifespan of an FPS is very short. Dust has the potential to have a decade lifespan or more like Eve does.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 06:56:00 - [35] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: I fully understand the Dust and EVE are and will be two totally different games. You are stating that everybody should be able to buy BPO's of everything that they are skilled into. Should be able to buy and actually being able to buy, are two different things. The 10 million for the GEK-38 in my OP, was just some random number to show as an example, it could very well be 20 million, 30 million... 50 million. I also stated in the OP that perhaps money coming from EVE would not be allowed to be used in purchase of these BPO's, only ISK earned directly from the player in the game. The extremely high ISK price and inability for a quick buy from a billion+ EVE donation, would indeed make this nothing like COD, and could take a very long time to accumulate that amount of cash (depending on how much it would cost of course.) Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Totally kills the idea and purpose of the EVE/DUST universe. You are asking for a COD or any other generic FPS game, where you level up and can use that weapon you unlocked all the time with out consequence. The consequence is the very high ISK price and inability to get it from anything other than playing the game and completing matches, which makes it something the player would really have to think about before unloading their life-savings on a single weapon, piece of equipment, module, or suit. Also just because somebody might eventually have a fully BPO proto suit, doesn't mean they won't want to try another class and start from scratch again. I know personally I would like to do something other than assault, and if i ever get to the point of maxing out all my skills for that role, I will likely then move onto something else. This idea certainly wouldn't kill the EVE/Dust universe, more than likely it would be the opposite, as people will have even more motivation to play and work their way up in terms of SP, ISK and upgrades. Just as I said in the OP, I am at the point now where I don't really want to upgrade, as it just means paying and wasting more ISK each time I die, no matter if my death was my fault or not. How people find this fun is beyond me, I find it irritating and stressful. Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Seriously this is stuff that a kid comes up with. That's why COD and other FPS is so dumbed down and terrible. I suppose I just don't know what it is like to play games nowadays, I thought it was to escape and have fun, to get away from real life for a few moments and enjoy a fake artificial world that does things one cannot do in real life. I don't need to make-believe myself losing money in a fake world and stressing over it, I have plenty of that in my real life. That might have been something I would have desired when I was 8, but now I know what it's like and I don't strive to replay it in a video game. Playing daddy-doing-his-taxes, isn't exactly something grown gamers should be seeking out.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.12.14 07:06:00 - [36] - Quote Welcome to New Eden, where when you get blown up your crap gets destroyed. The Main difference between EVE and Dust514 BPO's is that in eve you build ships from BPO's and those go boom, currently in dust BPO's require no items to build, this might change in the future, but for the moment we don't have an industry to build gear. So should we get an industry system, sure I could see BPO's to build suits from, otherwise, no, you want good crap spend the cash and get it, if not use militia kit.
Oede Usaema Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 19	Posted - 2012.12.14 07:10:00 - [37] - Quote First things first dude, if you're getting stressed over not being able to use a proto loadout every spawn, why are you doing it? What's wrong with using cheaper items? Why do you think you MUST USE THE MOST EXPENSIVE STUFF OR NOTHING AT ALLLLLLL? Once you realise that there's absolutely no need for you to pimp yourself out at every turn, you will enjoy the game a lot more and maybe even improve your actual skills rather than relying on over-bloated equipment, because at the moment, it sounds a lot more like you just enjoy rolling pubs without expending any brainpower, which might very well be entertaining for you personally, but where's the upshot for anyone else? Stop being so selfish.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 07:39:00 - [38] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: You are completely wrong. Dust have two things going for it which no other FPS competes with. 1. Persistant universe. 2. Risk vs Reward. For the past two decades FPS have NEVER had risk vs reward on this scale. If non militia BPOs continue to enter into Dust, the game WILL die. Remember, the lifespan of an FPS is very short. Dust has the potential to have a decade lifespan or more like Eve does. Ok, but what is the reward? SP for upgrading skills, giving minuet upgrades to various things. And ISK for buying gear, and re-buying gear lost in those matches. The thing is, even a proto suit, gear and maxed out skills, is no guarantee of anything. I could spawn in with that suit and die a second later due to something completely out of my control regardless of whatever tactics and skill I use. If I am to buy such a grossly expensive suit, it should at least be practically invulnerable, but it's not (for good reasons that I agree with). So therein lays the problem, proto suits/gear and upgraded skills do give an advantage, but is it worth it? Is the risk worth the reward? And if not, why would anybody want to waste that much time and effort to achieve them just to lose it in a blink of an eye? If such a top-tier suit and gear costs so much, then why is it so fragile? I mean generally in real life when you buy something that is 10x more expensive, you are getting something that is hopefully 10x better. So how come not in Dust? Answer to that, is balance. For which I agree with. But this balance throws a kink in the chain of reward, because of how the system is setup now, that reward is more akin to a slap in the face in comparison to the massive amount of risk taken. I mean seriously, say you use three 200k suits in a match, and lose them all. The reward for this is getting 250k ISK and a measly amount of SP. Now you are out 350k... so where is the reward? And when would that risk actually payout something that makes it a real reward? It's not as if the suits are much harder to kill than standard suits, so what... all that money just for a few extra slots that likely won't even get used before dying? If I had some kind of guarantee that I could live a lot longer using these suits, then yes they would be worth the risk. But that is not the case. So many times I have been near insta-killed by a militia rifle even if I have some massive amount of shields/armor. Heck, if the payout in ISK was multiplied as much as the difference in cost for the suit, then it would balance out. But it doesn't... so you take the risk of using a 700k suit for what.... at most 400k if you went 40-0 and capped every objective? Now tanks on the other hand, actually do have rewards. As the more you upgrade, they become exponentially more difficult to take out. Same goes for heavies (which I would say that they should not have these BPO's for the same exact reason). I imagine that is what it's like in EVE, as I assume people arent losing these massive and expensive ships at the same rate we lose suits in these 15-25 minuet matches. They pay a lot, and have a lot to risk.. but in the end are much more capable and harder to take out. So they live longer and get more rewards.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2012.12.14 07:44:00 - [39] - Quote Oede Usaema wrote: First things first dude, if you're getting stressed over not being able to use a proto loadout every spawn, why are you doing it? What's wrong with using cheaper items? Why do you think you MUST USE THE MOST EXPENSIVE STUFF OR NOTHING AT ALLLLLLL? Once you realise that there's absolutely no need for you to pimp yourself out at every turn, you will enjoy the game a lot more and maybe even improve your actual skills rather than relying on over-bloated equipment, because at the moment, it sounds a lot more like you just enjoy rolling pubs without expending any brainpower, which might very well be entertaining for you personally, but where's the upshot for anyone else? Stop being so selfish. If you read the OP, you would have read that I actually use my garbage suit most of the time. And yes, I actually have a lot more fun with it because I know I am losing so little due to several BPO's installed into it.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.12.14 07:54:00 - [40] - Quote To add to my point and address your question of what reward we get for the risk I submit to following. We have less than 20% of the final game. We are testing the mechanics, but we are operating in 1/10th of the possible map areas, we do not yet have the conquest or FW systems in place, we do not have industry systems, nor the market systems, we do not have planet ownership, and we don't have the full corp system. I find it futile and slightly short sighted to talk of balance, the need for better loot, ect when we do not yet have the full systems for these things. it's like asking for a car to go faster, when your still building the frame, you have no idea how fast it will go since it's not done yet. If you want to change something fine, but please let us wait to see what CCP is gonna do with it before you want it changed.

Sergeant Wiznowski Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 38	Posted - 2012.12.14 08:12:00 - [41] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Answer to that, is balance. For which I agree with. But this balance throws a kink in the chain of reward, because of how the system is setup now, that reward is more akin to a slap in the face in comparison to the massive amount of risk taken. I mean seriously, say you use three 200k suits in a match, and lose them all. The reward for this is getting 250k ISK and a measly amount of SP. Now you are out 350k... so where is the reward? Simple. It's a punishment for using proto suits on a pub match not a reward. Your reward is ability to add more modules for a high level fight. It's your choice to run pub match in this gear. Ability to balance costs vs income is a sign of successful merc and Dust is meant by CCP to be ISK sink.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.12.14 10:14:00 - [42] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: *CONTINUED...* But hear me out, what if the ISK for these BPO's was extremely high? Say for example the BPO for the GEK-38 could be 10 million ISK. That is a pretty hefty chunk of Dust currency So Ok, lets say you've read this far and are thinking; "Hey, what about when EVE comes into play and is able to give billions of ISK to Dust players?" Well, unless they do something to the Dust currency to match it with EVE, one alternative I can think up is that the BPO items can only be purchased with ISK earned directly from playing in Dust. Therefore no amount of EVE money or donations will enable players to buy BPO's, only ISK they have earned themselves will be capable of buying them. 1) people can get 10 million isk in eve in 10 minutes 2) Dust currency ALREADY is the same of EVE, ISK are ISK in both games, people would just send a billlion from theyr eve characters and buy all the bpo's.
ArMaGeDoN The Cat Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity 157	Posted - 2012.12.14 11:04:00 - [43] - Quote NO BAD DJINN leukoplast BAD BAAAAAAAAAAAAD Sprays him with water
IamI3rian OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 11	Posted - 2012.12.14 11:58:00 - [44] - Quote Didn't read the whole thing, franky I don't have time. I regret that though, since I've played more than a couple games with/against you... That said, my "recent" strategy is to play with my best/most expensive gear while I'm still earning skill points. Around, say, friday, when I'm down to triple digits for SP during matches, I'll switch to VERY cheap/free suits and rake in the isk. For example, my first two games on Wednesday (fighting for a spot, squadless in the Quafe matches) I burned 2.8M on suits. I'm doing MUCH better now, but I'm certain by sat morning the latest, I'll be back to earning 250k or so isk per match. This way, I'll have more than enough to restock those expensive suits when I'm back to earning SP again, and still be able to afford 30+ copies of the new gear my SP unlocked. = D In short, only spend isk on good suits when it's going to earn you SP... otherwise, freebie stuff is the way to go. Excepting corp matches and whatnot of course, and the occasional suit "burn" for the win is always worth it. That said, we've got more than one guy in our corp with decent LAV's for running over those 100k (and sometimes Aur too) suits that are just not going down with bullets. = D But yeah, that's my suggestion. If this is completely off topic at this point, I apologize. = /
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 437	Posted - 2012.12.14 12:39:00 - [45] - Quote I have 150 billion in EVE... That's functionally equivalent of having BPO's of all the top gear and vehicles, I could literally play 24/7 with top gear on my passive earnings alone. Now if there's BPO's then you remove the ISK sink that DUST is supposed to be.
ImMortal SoLDieR X RestlessSpirits 41	Posted - 2012.12.14 13:41:00 - [46] - Quote START TRANSMISSION............................. BRUTAL GAME, DESERVES BRUTAL LOSSES, RISK / REWARD NEXT WE WILL WANT BPO TANKS!!!! Cmon man!! we are STICKMEN WE DIE HORRIBLE WAYS AND PAY FOR IT. AID and GET AIDED OFF. SHOULD BE OUR MOTTO. LOL END TRANSMISSION.................................
UnknowingTea Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 21	Posted - 2012.12.14 14:05:00 - [47] - Quote I generally agree with the OP -- I think it is possible to make BPOs for many things and keep it balanced due to the high cost/rarity of the BPOs (as the OP described). Of course, I think there will always be high-end items with no BPOs (e.g. officer weapons), and the only real argument is where that high end is. A also don't think this idea is broken because Eve players have billions of ISK. Players with Eve money could lose gear in battle with almost no consequences, so they would effectively have BPOs for everything anyway.
dent 308 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 966	Posted - 2012.12.14 14:09:00 - [48] - Quote I was really surprised they released the tribute suits. Non-destroyable things is very much against the spirit of the game/universe. Rolling out your proto gear is supposed to be risky, but since your risking more you get a chance a greater reward. Getting flattened immediately by a LAV or orbital is frustrating but well within the bounds of the game.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.12.14 14:34:00 - [49] - Quote EVE RULES APPLY HERE: ONLY DEPLOY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO REPLACE.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2012.12.14 14:34:00 - [50] - Quote I disagree with this. I personally only have adv suits with proto weapons/modules right now so my good suits cost 130K and I am easily making profit with these suits. The times I never die or switch out into a cheaper suit before I die more than makes up for the few games where I die 2-3 times with my 130K suits.

Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.12.14 14:36:00 - [51] - Quote Also, BPC and BPO distinction will make a difference once CCP adds resources into the game. What if to use a BPO, the corp has to have a certain number of materials, and if the corp runs out, you can't deploy that fitting?
Thorn Wraith Planetary Logistics 0	Posted - 2012.12.14 15:47:00 - [52] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: EVE RULES APPLY HERE: ONLY DEPLOY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO REPLACE. Glad someone finally said this.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.12.14 15:57:00 - [53] - Quote If we want industry, and I mean Dust side, non reliant on EvE production, then anything above lvl 1 skill req should NEVER, in all 7 years it will take to skill up, EVER go above lvl 1 req's. I.E. no BPO type2 suits. No BPO Sagaris (gunloggi is legit. Because there are already BPO saga). No BPO tac rifles. You get the idea.
Onieros The Void Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.12.14 16:34:00 - [54] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: If we want industry, and I mean Dust side, non reliant on EvE production, then anything above lvl 1 skill req should NEVER, in all 7 years it will take to skill up, EVER go above lvl 1 req's. I.E. no BPO type2 suits. No BPO Sagaris (gunloggi is legit. Because there are already BPO saga). No BPO tac rifles. You get the idea. What is this delicious BPO sagaris you speak of?
Fleen Costell'o Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 10	Posted - 2012.12.14 16:43:00 - [55] - Quote It is foolish to use an expensive suit on a shared server.
Jaiden Longshot Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 216	Posted - 2012.12.14 17:07:00 - [56] - Quote One Universe, One War Sorry, but I doubt CCP wants to degrade the spirit of the universe just for mercs in drop suits. Not only is what you are asking against the concept of the game but you mention wanting BPO's just for drop suits but not for vehicles and then you want CCP to restrict a corp from spending EvE ISK on these items when corporations will have capsuleers and mercs??? Really??? It's one economy and eventually one market. How would you suggest they handle your request? Marked ISK? If you don't want to lose prototype suits don't buy, fit and deploy them. Simple solution
BASSMEANT ZionTCD Legacy Rising 109	Posted - 2012.12.14 17:53:00 - [57] - Quote "only to lose it way too quickly and be out all that ISK with little or nothing to show for it. This irritates me to no end" i've been waiting to see this in print for a while now, long before open beta. quit playing as solo players wearing clan tags and learn the simplest forms of organization. quit running around all the time. slow is smooth and smooth is fast. say that until it sinks in. or don't, really don't care... just good to see that this game has at least a few sharp edges that the casuals can't dodge. the fun part is knowing if it's this bad for you... just think how bad it's gonna be when it sinks in for the millions of baby cows out there, all milk fed and wobbly, who are gonna tip over crying when their favorite set of snuggies armor gets smashed on day 5. Peace B
Django Quik R.I.f.t 219	Posted - 2012.12.14 22:35:00 - [58] - Quote This is possibly the worst suggestion I've ever read on these forums. No amount of money or time spent playing should provide unlimited numbers of any decent gear. Even if you somehow segregate Eve Isk from Dust Isk (a ridiculous concept in itself), this whole idea would break the entire idea of a free market controlled by the players. Seriously, if you really want a suit that doesn't ever run out, save up your 100 million Isk and buy 1000 of them, then work on learning how to play so you die less and that'll probably last you long enough until you get bored and bugger off.


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