Its ok, Someone will find it eventually and make note of it, I'll be looking out thats for sure, dont need people getting millions of dollars in bank again and making the game unfair and unbalanced.

but it's going to happen definitely when release. the EVE players are going to be the ones in control by corps they build in dust. why would they allow some no named guys to make isk on what they commission to take over?

There's this assumption that you'll definitely be able to transfer unlimited amounts of ISK at some point in the future, from EVE into Dust. And note it's always the one direction people are talking about, and that tells you all you need to know. In EVE, you can make hundreds of millions without breaking a sweat. Some ratting, some mining, some PI, whatever. No big deal.

In Dust, how long would it take to make a similar amount? Long time. To make even 100 million in Dust, at ~100 - 150k ISK per game (if you're good and lose very little ISK) would require you to play hundreds of games. It would take a long, long time.

In other words, if they were to open up transferring ISK they'd completely trivialize the ISK-related portion of the game for any EVE players, or anyone with an established EVE-playing friend, or anyone who can otherwise get an EVE connection. Those people will never have to worry about ISK ever again, while the people with no EVE connection will continue to value ISK a lot, and have to be careful about dying, and so on.

So, the question, really, is why they would ever want to allow ISK transfers in the first place. Other than the notion that such a thing might be possible in the New Eden setting, what purpose would it serve other than to do a great deal of harm to Dust as a game? Considering that they've billed Dust as a game about being a mercenary, and everything having value, and every death mattering because you value your equipment, what sense would it make to allow a certain portion of the playerbase to acquire so much ISK that ISK basically becomes unimportant to them?

Unless CCP does a major overhaul of the ISK generation in Dust, and the price of all items, to somehow, magically, make Dust players earn the same as EVE players given the same amount of effort spent and the same time committed, I can't see why they'd ever just open the games to one-another monetarily. It serves no purpose and would do quite a lot of harm to Dust.

More than that probably. A game in Dust takes 10 - 15 minutes or so, right? So 4 - 6 games an hour, making probably around 100k ISK profit per game in a good result. So let's say a Dust player makes 500k ISK an hour. That isn't anything close to what a you can make in an hour in EVE. The tax would have to be pretty ludicrously high, indeed.

But, yeah, I think a tax is probably the answer. At any rate, simply being able to transfer ISK from EVE to Dust on a 1:1 basis should never be allowed.

I can make 20-25mil per hour semi afk mining.

you can make 50 mil for full afk mining if i find a good grav sight. those rare minerals that find themselves in high sec are just as good as the null sec stuff and i don't even have to take it that far to a trade hub.

Nice to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about. All I know is the basic "Highsec is meant to be low-risk low-reward" spiel. Apparently not quite THAT low a reward. Guess I'm running with the "economy will need work" crowd again.

There's this assumption that you'll definitely be able to transfer unlimited amounts of ISK at some point in the future, from EVE into Dust. And note it's always the one direction people are talking about, and that tells you all you need to know. In EVE, you can make hundreds of millions without breaking a sweat. Some ratting, some mining, some PI, whatever. No big deal.

In Dust, how long would it take to make a similar amount? Long time. To make even 100 million in Dust, at ~100 - 150k ISK per game (if you're good and lose very little ISK) would require you to play hundreds of games. It would take a long, long time.

In other words, if they were to open up transferring ISK they'd completely trivialize the ISK-related portion of the game for any EVE players, or anyone with an established EVE-playing friend, or anyone who can otherwise get an EVE connection. Those people will never have to worry about ISK ever again, while the people with no EVE connection will continue to value ISK a lot, and have to be careful about dying, and so on.

So, the question, really, is why they would ever want to allow ISK transfers in the first place. Other than the notion that such a thing might be possible in the New Eden setting, what purpose would it serve other than to do a great deal of harm to Dust as a game? Considering that they've billed Dust as a game about being a mercenary, and everything having value, and every death mattering because you value your equipment, what sense would it make to allow a certain portion of the playerbase to acquire so much ISK that ISK basically becomes unimportant to them?

Unless CCP does a major overhaul of the ISK generation in Dust, and the price of all items, to somehow, magically, make Dust players earn the same as EVE players given the same amount of effort spent and the same time committed, I can't see why they'd ever just open the games to one-another monetarily. It serves no purpose and would do quite a lot of harm to Dust.

We are doing pvp, how fast can money be made in high sec pvp? I don't know the payout for suicide ganking but doubt it's very high.

In low sec pvp, I never made a profit, lost 20 million isk an hour or so. Low sec pve I made a nice profit to afford those loses, not enough to do pvp in eve and sent money to dust. Many other could though.

EvE incomes are also higher as you skill into more profitable things. At the beginning dust gives out more isk, it just stays there instead of going up over time. We may have something similar in dust we haven't seen yet.

Some form of isk transfer is intended, but ccp has some plan yet to be revealed to limit it. The unlimited stream of test server isk was not what will happen at launch.

EvE high sec mission payouts not counting lp store, we don't yet know if this will be included.
lv1 about 2.16million/hr including loot/salvage
lv2 about 2.91million/hr including loot/salvage
lv4 about 23.37million/hr including loot/salvage, this is with the equivalent of a officer hav with near max skills and best isk mods
lv4 about 35.35million/hr including loot/salvage, this is with the equivalent of a officer sagaris with aur/officer gear fit.

Once we can sell loot, have separate salvage and loot, lp stores, and pve missions the gap in isk gain between games will close somewhat.

Dont forget that there will be PVE in Dust, the amount of ISK we are getting in Dust isnt going to be our only option. In my opinion CCP should bump the cost of everything and make Dust a good ISK sink. Just like in EVE if you wanna pvp you have to support your habits with some carebearing.

More than that probably. A game in Dust takes 10 - 15 minutes or so, right? So 4 - 6 games an hour, making probably around 100k ISK profit per game in a good result. So let's say a Dust player makes 500k ISK an hour. That isn't anything close to what a you can make in an hour in EVE. The tax would have to be pretty ludicrously high, indeed.

But, yeah, I think a tax is probably the answer. At any rate, simply being able to transfer ISK from EVE to Dust on a 1:1 basis should never be allowed.

There's this assumption that you'll definitely be able to transfer unlimited amounts of ISK at some point in the future, from EVE into Dust. And note it's always the one direction people are talking about, and that tells you all you need to know. In EVE, you can make hundreds of millions without breaking a sweat. Some ratting, some mining, some PI, whatever. No big deal.

In Dust, how long would it take to make a similar amount? Long time. To make even 100 million in Dust, at ~100 - 150k ISK per game (if you're good and lose very little ISK) would require you to play hundreds of games. It would take a long, long time.

In other words, if they were to open up transferring ISK they'd completely trivialize the ISK-related portion of the game for any EVE players, or anyone with an established EVE-playing friend, or anyone who can otherwise get an EVE connection. Those people will never have to worry about ISK ever again, while the people with no EVE connection will continue to value ISK a lot, and have to be careful about dying, and so on.

So, the question, really, is why they would ever want to allow ISK transfers in the first place. Other than the notion that such a thing might be possible in the New Eden setting, what purpose would it serve other than to do a great deal of harm to Dust as a game? Considering that they've billed Dust as a game about being a mercenary, and everything having value, and every death mattering because you value your equipment, what sense would it make to allow a certain portion of the playerbase to acquire so much ISK that ISK basically becomes unimportant to them?

Unless CCP does a major overhaul of the ISK generation in Dust, and the price of all items, to somehow, magically, make Dust players earn the same as EVE players given the same amount of effort spent and the same time committed, I can't see why they'd ever just open the games to one-another monetarily. It serves no purpose and would do quite a lot of harm to Dust.

I think someone needs to interject while several people bring this point up, and mention that we're only really seeing the public matchmaking system's battles, which is the kind of battle you'll be fighting in HighSec. These are MEANT to be the chump-change battles.

Anyone in EVE want to confirm how easy it is to make a profit living in HighSec? Can you comfortably outstrip 500k ISK per hour there? If so, we might need tweaking on our DUST contract profits (and corresponding shifts in the cost of gear). If not, seems like this is probably working as intended.

I can make 20-25mil per hour semi afk mining.

I think someone needs to interject while several people bring this point up, and mention that we're only really seeing the public matchmaking system's battles, which is the kind of battle you'll be fighting in HighSec. These are MEANT to be the chump-change battles.

Anyone in EVE want to confirm how easy it is to make a profit living in HighSec? Can you comfortably outstrip 500k ISK per hour there? If so, we might need tweaking on our DUST contract profits (and corresponding shifts in the cost of gear). If not, seems like this is probably working as intended.

This sounds like a person scared of falling behind. there is aurum for a reason, why not spend $20 a month and get your aurum equipment. they presented side grades for a reason so that isk generation can be canceled out. However it may not completely cancel out, but you gain loot, you can do co-op stuff to make your isk, and your supposed to make a corp/join to get better contracts. Playing the game the way its intended is always a plus. New eden has darwin written all over it.

How does ISK get introduced into the EVE economy in the first place?

Trading and speculating are zero sum games. Someone wins at another's expense.

Is the monetary supply fixed, or is there an equivalent to the Federal Reserve who can print more?

Generally I would support a fully open economy between EVE/Dust. Having played EVE for several years now I am always amazed at the EVE market's ability to self correct. I don't think that adding Dust 514 to the mix would be as scary as people think. I also think that if Dust ever does reach the kind of end game seen in EVE then isk will be a very much secondary factor. Isk very rarely (if ever) is the determining factor in deciding major conflicts. Still as it stands now it looks to me like there need to be more isk faucets in Dust and Dust mercenaries need a way to be able to monetize their services better if linking the two economies was to work.

And el oh el at people who think the non-EVE players without access to easy millions would be able to afford anything even if the market were somehow able to shift to accommodate the many new wealthy Dust characters.

This sounds like a person scared of falling behind. there is aurum for a reason, why not spend $20 a month and get your aurum equipment. they presented side grades for a reason so that isk generation can be canceled out. However it may not completely cancel out, but you gain loot, you can do co-op stuff to make your isk, and your supposed to make a corp/join to get better contracts. Playing the game the way its intended is always a plus. New eden has darwin written all over it.

You can be wealthy too, just like the EVE players spend time making their isk you can spend time doing PVE in Dust.

ISK transfer has been locked down because you can generate unlimited ISK for free on the test server. It should be pretty obvious why we don't want this yet.

We are however interested in bug reports for anything we might have missed which allows you to transfer ISK between the games, of course in the interest of fairness we will need to take it back if you do .

Cant buy skill books with AURUM....but you can with ISK.F u c k your circular logic ...GIVE ME A HEADSTART CUZ IM A EVE PLAYER......is all Im hearing.

EVE's ability to self-correct isn't a part of it. The problem is that if they opened it up, Dust would instantly be flooded by many billions of EVE spacebux and all the people so endowed would never have to worry about money again, because Dust's market pricing is fixed. Nobody would be moving money from Dust to EVE. They'd be moving their spare change from EVE to buy fleets of tanks and hundreds of fittings of prototype gear in Dust.

There is no upside to this move. There is no incentive for them to allow unrestricted movement of ISK. Maybe, one day, years from now, when Dust has a player-driven economy like EVE's, and Dust earnings are made on par with EVE earnings, maybe then they could join the two and they'd merge without one side being obliterated by the other. But, until then, there is zero reason to do it beyond "well they're both in the same fictional setting and they both use ISK, so...".

There's this assumption that you'll definitely be able to transfer unlimited amounts of ISK at some point in the future, from EVE into Dust. And note it's always the one direction people are talking about, and that tells you all you need to know. In EVE, you can make hundreds of millions without breaking a sweat. Some ratting, some mining, some PI, whatever. No big deal.

In Dust, how long would it take to make a similar amount? Long time. To make even 100 million in Dust, at ~100 - 150k ISK per game (if you're good and lose very little ISK) would require you to play hundreds of games. It would take a long, long time.

In other words, if they were to open up transferring ISK they'd completely trivialize the ISK-related portion of the game for any EVE players, or anyone with an established EVE-playing friend, or anyone who can otherwise get an EVE connection. Those people will never have to worry about ISK ever again, while the people with no EVE connection will continue to value ISK a lot, and have to be careful about dying, and so on.

So, the question, really, is why they would ever want to allow ISK transfers in the first place. Other than the notion that such a thing might be possible in the New Eden setting, what purpose would it serve other than to do a great deal of harm to Dust as a game? Considering that they've billed Dust as a game about being a mercenary, and everything having value, and every death mattering because you value your equipment, what sense would it make to allow a certain portion of the playerbase to acquire so much ISK that ISK basically becomes unimportant to them?

Unless CCP does a major overhaul of the ISK generation in Dust, and the price of all items, to somehow, magically, make Dust players earn the same as EVE players given the same amount of effort spent and the same time committed, I can't see why they'd ever just open the games to one-another monetarily. It serves no purpose and would do quite a lot of harm to Dust.

. . Is there that much ISK sleeping around that a vast majority of Dust players with EVE connections could get insta-rich ? Or are those EVE dudes kinda protective and dont intend to give money unless it earns them something back in exchange ?
. . .

People not worrying about money would be a flaw in the game. The items we have right now will hopefully be considered sub-standard by the time actual corporate warfare rolls around. There should be items which cost extravagant amounts of ISK, and which are rare and valuable even if you're being bankrolled by a wealthy EVE establishment. There need to be capital-equivalents of weapons and dropsuits. So I don't see unlimited money as an inevitability. It's only what happens if something is done poorly on CCP's part.

Although... one thing I'm wondering is, what if in Dust the kept a single market and didn't break it down into regional markets like in EVE. And what if the ISK you earned doing Instant Battle games were related to the market price of items? Then, if you opened up the markets entirely and made everything player-created except for BPOs, items becoming much more expensive wouldn't necessarily make them prohibitive to non-EVE-connected players, as the items would similarly give people a bigger ISK bounty when they kill the person wearing them in a match.

I don't know. Economics isn't something I have any formal education in, but I have to wonder if making the ISK generated flexible and proportional to the cost of items on the (one, singular) market might not be a way to balance it all out.

. . . but letting some idiot go out and get blown up in Proto Suits match after match? Ya, no corp in their right mind would try to replace stuff that is designed to poof.. . .Having us blow ourselves up off of Eve provide suits was their idea. Too bad no corp in their right mind will fall for it.

Well, a few things that I have noticed that I felt I would comment on. First, once the Dust market goes to market driven economics instead of the seeded items we have now, you will see prices on everything adjust themselves. I also believe that the amount of ISK that we are earning right now is not indicative of what we will see in the live version of the game. I have yet to see a dev post here on these forums that stated that this is it.

There also seems to be an idea floating around that people would actually want to throw tons of money towards Dust. I didn't say ISK, I said money. You see, ISK does in fact have real world value. It is currently about $15 U.S. for every 500 million ISK, give or take based on market considerations. So for someone to throw his dust corp "a couple bil", or even trillions like some have claimed, is ludicrous. Enough to cover corp battle rewards? Ya, they will swing for that, but letting some idiot go out and get blown up in Proto Suits match after match? Ya, no corp in their right mind would try to replace stuff that is designed to poof.

Actually you make 0 isk per hour mining (although you might make some isk defending yourself against rats) . When you mine you get minerals that you then sell (or manufacture into something to sell) via the market for isk.

Mining is a bad example for using as an argument as to why making isk in EVE is easier then making isk in Dust. Mining is a way to provide a service to someone that has isk by trading them something you had the skill to get. It is entirely dependent on two things - a free market economy to allow you to quickly and easily sell the minerals, and the value of those minerals as determined by the free market. If players decided at some point that the value of the minerals you mine was 0 then mining would be a 0 isk per hour activity.

Similarily in Dust if we can sell our services to someone who has isk via the free market then isk per hour would be a calculation of how valuable our service is and how quickly and efficiently we can provide it. If being able to take over a planet in an hour is worth more than two Orca loads of highsec minerals then a free market will reward a competent Dust squad more then a highsec mining operation. The key thing to note that it will be players participating in the market that will determine this and not some dev updating a loot table in a database.

Activities like mining, PI, industry, market manipulation, etc all generate 0 isk and probably should not be used as arguments to put up walls to separate EVE/Dust economies. If anything they would support arguments to allow a free flow of isk since they show that services supported by a free flow of isk allow for a wide variety of lucrative professions - including presumably being able to shoot a drop suit in the face mask.. The key would be having a solid, competitive way to sell that service on an open market - which I don't see yet in Dust (or even EVE atm - imho mercenaries in EVE are not well supported despite several attempts).

A better argument for separating the economies would be to focus on the actual isk generating activities. For Dust this would be running missions - lets go with 500 isk per hour as a rough gestimate. This currently is the only option - but maybe there will be more in the future. It also is not clear to me all the factors that go into isk generation - correct me if I am wrong but I think the value of isk generated in a Dust mission is dependent on the overall isk value of items used in the mission? If this is true then the longer Dust 514 runs the more isk per hour a player could reasonably expect to make. Compare this to Missions/Ratting/Incursions in EVE (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_faucet) which in my experience can reasonably vary something like 10 million per hour up to about 100 million per hour. This may be misleading since 100 million an hour in EVE is not going to be something you could reasonably do on a 1 month old character (roughly the age of our Dust 514 chars).

Generally I would support a fully open economy between EVE/Dust. Having played EVE for several years now I am always amazed at the EVE market's ability to self correct. I don't think that adding Dust 514 to the mix would be as scary as people think. I also think that if Dust ever does reach the kind of end game seen in EVE then isk will be a very much secondary factor. Isk very rarely (if ever) is the determining factor in deciding major conflicts. Still as it stands now it looks to me like there need to be more isk faucets in Dust and Dust mercenaries need a way to be able to monetize their services better if linking the two economies was to work.

T

In Dust, how long would it take to make a similar amount? Long time. To make even 100 million in Dust, at ~100 - 150k ISK per game (if you're good and lose very little ISK) would require you to play hundreds of games. It would take a long, long time.
.

More than that probably. A game in Dust takes 10 - 15 minutes or so, right? So 4 - 6 games an hour, making probably around 100k ISK profit per game in a good result. So let's say a Dust player makes 500k ISK an hour. That isn't anything close to what a you can make in an hour in EVE. The tax would have to be pretty ludicrously high, indeed.

But, yeah, I think a tax is probably the answer. At any rate, simply being able to transfer ISK from EVE to Dust on a 1:1 basis should never be allowed.

1st Again, I expect the pays to get higher for grinding ArenaPVP/PVE

2nd remember the payouts are in relation to what the opposing team lost. More higher priced items - more gain

3rd isk IS going to flow - imagine a friendly corp make a veeeery easy contract, perhaps vs another friendly corp. And offering 300 B isk for that. The contract is, of course, available to friendly dust corps (that has been confirmed in order to prevent hostile corps accepting YOUR defence contract

Well, you're the one making the assumptions then, not I.