DUST Search - SP Hard Cap

Odiain Suliis wrote:

ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote:

now Im gonna have re quote all this stuff ahhh
In summary,
You said the that the new SP cap system being implemented was perfect! however, I then explained how the system, long term, was unbalance for new players.

You then said "And why the **** shouldn't it be that way? This game was never intended to be ****ing balanced"

So you agree that this game is unbalanced ie. "This game was never intended to be ****ing balanced"

Lastly, how can a system be perfect if its imbalanced , contradiction much ;/

Since you skipped over it to get your point across I'll repost it again:

System A) A player experiences diminishing returns but no hard cap to where they can just endless rack in SP, so that from Day One they will have AN INCREDIBLE ADVANTAGE over a new player.

or

System B) Where a player starting from day one his a hard-cap but will always have an advantage over a new player.

Just saying, System B is the lesser of two evils. I'd rather fight against someone who's faced hard-caps and has a set amount of SP because he's been playing longer than I have than someone who does absolutely nothing with their life -AND- has been playing longer than me with no limitations on how much he can gain from his matches.

wow way sway the topic train!
Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation
However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think

Underlined being the operative word. But in some cases there aren't a win-win solution to be found. Some cases there are only lose-lose and one has to pick which of those lose conditions are more in favour of ones goals.

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KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:23:00 - [61] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's meant to reward long term players and those that adopt the game early, just like in EVE. Its pretty similar to real life you know, you're not going to learn more than a professional driver just because you've spent 100 hours this week driving while he's spent 2 hours doing it this week. He has years of experience that you cant and wont ever get until he dies or quits and you then catch up and or surpass him. Yea i agree with this, i just dont like when i see people defending to the death something CCP did just because -they- did it. I do think this system is better than the last but i think they could still improve upon it, not quite sure how but i'm sure they could. Also Aeon, EVE player =/= fanboy.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:24:00 - [62] - Quote ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: wow way sway the topic train! Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think Jesus christ... That's it - putting a bounty on your head for stupidity...
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:25:00 - [63] - Quote KryptixX wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's meant to reward long term players and those that adopt the game early, just like in EVE. Its pretty similar to real life you know, you're not going to learn more than a professional driver just because you've spent 100 hours this week driving while he's spent 2 hours doing it this week. He has years of experience that you cant and wont ever get until he dies or quits and you then catch up and or surpass him. Yea i agree with this, i just dont like when i see people defending to the death something CCP did just because -they- did it. I do think this system is better than the last but i think they could still improve upon it, not quite sure how but i'm sure they could. Also Aeon, EVE player =/= fanboy. How assumptive of you. I like the system so I -HAVE- to like it (and subsequently defend it) because CCP implemented. Makes -perfect- sense.
ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD 8	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:29:00 - [64] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: wow way sway the topic train! Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think Jesus christ... That's it - putting a bounty on your head for stupidity... join the club, anyways your the one who said the system was balanced, and then agreed with me that it was imbalanced. Just connecting the dots`
Odiain Suliis 39	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:29:00 - [65] - Quote ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: now Im gonna have re quote all this stuff ahhh In summary, You said the that the new SP cap system being implemented was perfect! however, I then explained how the system, long term, was unbalance for new players. You then said "And why the ** shouldn't it be that way? This game was never intended to be ing balanced" So you agree that this game is unbalanced ie. "This game was never intended to be **ing balanced" Lastly, how can a system be perfect if its imbalanced , contradiction much ;/ Since you skipped over it to get your point across I'll repost it again: System A) A player experiences diminishing returns but no hard cap to where they can just endless rack in SP, so that from Day One they will have AN INCREDIBLE ADVANTAGE over a new player. or System B) Where a player starting from day one his a hard-cap but will always have an advantage over a new player. Just saying, System B is the lesser of two evils. I'd rather fight against someone who's faced hard-caps and has a set amount of SP because he's been playing longer than I have than someone who does absolutely nothing with their life -AND- has been playing longer than me with no limitations on how much he can gain from his matches. wow way sway the topic train! Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think Underlined being the operative word. But in some cases there aren't a win-win solution to be found. Some cases there are only lose-lose and one has to pick which of those lose conditions are more in favour of ones goals.
ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD 8	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:31:00 - [66] - Quote Odiain Suliis wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: now Im gonna have re quote all this stuff ahhh In summary, You said the that the new SP cap system being implemented was perfect! however, I then explained how the system, long term, was unbalance for new players. You then said "And why the ** shouldn't it be that way? This game was never intended to be ing balanced" So you agree that this game is unbalanced ie. "This game was never intended to be **ing balanced" Lastly, how can a system be perfect if its imbalanced , contradiction much ;/ Since you skipped over it to get your point across I'll repost it again: System A) A player experiences diminishing returns but no hard cap to where they can just endless rack in SP, so that from Day One they will have AN INCREDIBLE ADVANTAGE over a new player. or System B) Where a player starting from day one his a hard-cap but will always have an advantage over a new player. Just saying, System B is the lesser of two evils. I'd rather fight against someone who's faced hard-caps and has a set amount of SP because he's been playing longer than I have than someone who does absolutely nothing with their life -AND- has been playing longer than me with no limitations on how much he can gain from his matches. wow way sway the topic train! Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think Underlined being the operative word. But in some cases there aren't a win-win solution to be found. Some cases there are only lose-lose and one has to pick which of those lose conditions are more in favour of ones goals. I disagree, Moreover, I believe we can find solution, we just get this CCP Fanboy dealt with frist
a dirty Shisno Algintal Core Gallente Federation 130	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:33:00 - [67] - Quote KryptixX wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: a dirty Shisno wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: depends on how big the cap is tbh ppl shouldnt be punished too much and make this game painfully slow grind just because they can play a bit more. this also makes it harder for newer players to catch up to vets months down the line when u got that cap in place no matter how much time a newbie has to play catch up he will now struggle to close the SP gap and as u said.............this is a game of consequence and now the newbie is being punished because he didnt start playing from day 1. THIS A hardcore player that starts even just one week after launch who always hits the cap will NEVER catch up to a hardcore player that starts on day one and also always hits the cap. So which would you prefer: System A) A player experiences diminishing returns but no hard cap to where they can just endless rack in SP, so that from Day One they will have AN INCREDIBLE ADVANTAGE over a new player. or System B) Where a player starting from day one his a hard-cap but will always have an advantage over a new player. Just saying, System B is the lesser of two evils. I'd rather fight against someone who's faced hard-caps and has a set amount of SP because he's been playing longer than I have than someone who does absolutely nothing with their life -AND- has been playing longer than me with no limitations on how much he can gain from his matches. But I can't honestly expect anyone on these forums to understand that logic because CARROTS AND PEAS ARE BAD FOR ME Why can't there be a happy medium? I'm sure CCP is smart enough to figure this out. Just because EVE does something one way doesn't mean its the best or right decision for dust. I'd prefer some system where the newest player has a chance to match up to the highest player at some point, but with the current system a player who starts playing a year later will ALWAYS be one year behind the "best" players. If there MUST be a cap, then the cap should be dynamic, with it being higher for players with less Skill Points. But for that to really be effective, it would have to be so high for new players that it would appear to them that there is no cap. However, that would completely defeat the purpose of the cap in the first place, and would allow for newbies to boost Skill Points in their early games.
Odiain Suliis 39	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:36:00 - [68] - Quote Sorry to disapoint, but I'm kinda liking this new SP model.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:45:00 - [69] - Quote a dirty Shisno wrote: I'd prefer some system where the newest player has a chance to match up to the highest player at some point, but with the current system a player who starts playing a year later will ALWAYS be one year behind the "best" players. If there MUST be a cap, then the cap should be dynamic, with it being higher for players with less Skill Points. But for that to really be effective, it would have to be so high for new players that it would appear to them that there is no cap. However, that would completely defeat the purpose of the cap in the first place, and would allow for newbies to boost Skill Points in their early games. That's how Eve Online works dude... This game is connecting to Eve Online... If it were separate, sure, but it's not.. If it were up to me (oh **** he's actually saying something that doesn't fall into CCP's plan!!!! EVERYONE BRACE FOR IMPACT) I'd say get rid of Active SP Gain entirely and make it entirely passive - then we wouldn't have this argument in the first place.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:52:00 - [70] - Quote KryptixX wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's meant to reward long term players and those that adopt the game early, just like in EVE. Its pretty similar to real life you know, you're not going to learn more than a professional driver just because you've spent 100 hours this week driving while he's spent 2 hours doing it this week. He has years of experience that you cant and wont ever get until he dies or quits and you then catch up and or surpass him. Yea i agree with this, i just dont like when i see people defending to the death something CCP did just because -they- did it. I do think this system is better than the last but i think they could still improve upon it, not quite sure how but i'm sure they could. Also Aeon, EVE player =/= fanboy. I agree with you, but i think its unfair to say someone us a fanboy because they play EVE. I'm not a fan boy, i play eve, i just have a different perspective to everyone else here. A lot of the NON eve players think this is just a FPS game and want it to be similar to other FPS games they enjoy, those of us who have played eve know what CCP wants to build and have a better idea how to balance dust in comparison to eve. As much as it annoys people that it seems like we're being fanboys and defending eve/ccp all the time it's really not the case, we're just able to share their vision a little better because we understand both sides of the coin better than your average fps gamer.

KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.09.30 15:59:00 - [71] - Quote EVE player =/= fanboy meant they were not the same, wasn't trying to say all EVE players are fanboys. I actually have more of a mmo background than fps (just not EVE, and definitely not MAG) so I understand and support those aspects. I just don't support mirroring EVE in every way we can, a lot of the time sure, but sometimes they need to break the EVE mold and think outside the sandbox.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:13:00 - [72] - Quote I was wondering how they would balance trade, science, corp, and industry skills between games. The market and corps at least are shared, if sp are gained at different rate in two games it will favor that game for shared skills. So cap makes sense, even though I preferred current rate. The passive sp should work on all char since it's a free game, otherwise people will just make more accounts. I assume 3 char on 1 account is better then 1 char on each of 3 accounts from ccp side. So, why not let all three gain passive?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:17:00 - [73] - Quote 1) The very nature of a MMO is that character skill matters. That seperates it from the pure FPS. 2) Under any proposed SP award system someone is going to have an advantgage over someone else. EVE and DUST are companion MMO's so the first point isn't going to change. DUST won't become a pure FPS. So what is the effect of the second point? Does it mean new players may as well pack it up and go home because they will never be able to catch up, and what does it really mean to "catch up" anyway? CCP has a skill tree system that both fragments SP allotment and yeilds diminishing returns on investment. A new player may have to grind for a time, but he can eventually max out all skills related to any one specialty such as AR. Even before he maxes out the opponent with more SP will only have a few percentage points advantage in range, reload speed, or damage. At this point player skill can easily overcome the difference. So in this sense a new player does have the ability to catch up with older players. What does the older player do with all the SP after he maxes out a given specialty? He starts a new one. In that sense the older player will always be ahead of the newer player, but does that imbalance the game in any way? I submit that it does not. It rewards long term play with flexibility and gives a reason to keep playing long term which is good for the game. So while the new player will never "catch up" to the older player in this sense it doesn't matter to game play.
Pt3D Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 221	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:17:00 - [74] - Quote I'm totally against this on all levels. No SP Caps, ever.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:20:00 - [75] - Quote Be happy that you have this instead of the EVE training time, HAV lvl5 27days you would all cry Anyways its a beta they want to tweek it and tbh i dont care atm unless its really broke
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:32:00 - [76] - Quote OP failure to read its a soft cap not hard.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:34:00 - [77] - Quote I'm personally a huge fan of this change, in theory at least.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:35:00 - [78] - Quote hear me out. OUr sp should pool for the account over time. Then we should be able to spend it on any merc we want. What do you think? Then each suit would have it's own hard cap, so you can still level up each character a week. Incase you won't lower rewards, switch to a different character. also yeah it might be a soft cap, meaning you start getting 500 sp a match like after so many games. Still then go play a different character.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.09.30 16:36:00 - [79] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: OP failure to read its a soft cap not hard. * Skill point accrual has been rebalanced and now has a hard cap per week that corresponds to EVE Online ??
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.09.30 17:29:00 - [80] - Quote all this really does is shift the advantage from the guy who plays MORE, to the guy who played FIRST? it's still not "fair" if anything it's more skewed than the old system, in that no matter how hard he tries, a new player will never catch up? i guess i don't really have much reason to care either way... being in this forum means we're all in on the ground floor. so i will be receiving the maximum benefit of this new system... but speaking objectively, it's definitely a barrier to entry for new players in the future. this also makes me wonder about skillpoint boosters. will they make you reach the cap 50% faster? seems like a potential waste of aurum. or will the boosters 50% be in addition to the normal cap? seems like a potential "pay to win" shitstorm.

Daalzebul Del'Armgo D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 48	Posted - 2012.09.30 18:43:00 - [81] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: I was wondering how they would balance trade, science, corp, and industry skills between games. The market and corps at least are shared, if sp are gained at different rate in two games it will favor that game for shared skills. So cap makes sense, even though I preferred current rate. The passive sp should work on all char since it's a free game, otherwise people will just make more accounts. I assume 3 char on 1 account is better then 1 char on each of 3 accounts from ccp side. So, why not let all three gain passive? a merc pack and shared arum can be split between the 3 where as you wanted arum on all 3 accounts you would have to purchase one for said 3 accounts
Nyefari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.09.30 18:52:00 - [82] - Quote ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: ThatGUYisSO GOOOOOOOOOOD wrote: wow way sway the topic train! Anyways, Im the type of guy who tries find a solution that involves no evil, my only solution is a win-win situation However, Iam glad we agree the new system is imbalanced... that is a start I think Jesus christ... That's it - putting a bounty on your head for stupidity... join the club, anyways your the one who said the system was balanced, and then agreed with me that it was imbalanced. Just connecting the dots` He didn't say it was balanced, he said it was perfect. Whether I agree with him or not you are still wrong in thinking that he changed his position.
Chao Wolf Imperfects Negative-Feedback 209	Posted - 2012.09.30 19:12:00 - [83] - Quote My 0.02 isk Let's turn the sp gain on it's head. How about having passive sp gain like it is already, but have active only go into the skills for the gear you're using. Now where did I put that fire proof dropsuit?
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.09.30 19:24:00 - [84] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: all this really does is shift the advantage from the guy who plays MORE, to the guy who played FIRST? it's still not "fair" if anything it's more skewed than the old system, in that no matter how hard he tries, a new player will never catch up? i guess i don't really have much reason to care either way... being in this forum means we're all in on the ground floor. so i will be receiving the maximum benefit of this new system... but speaking objectively, it's definitely a barrier to entry for new players in the future. this also makes me wonder about skillpoint boosters. will they make you reach the cap 50% faster? seems like a potential waste of aurum. or will the boosters 50% be in addition to the normal cap? seems like a potential "pay to win" shitstorm. Couldn't say it better. There aren't many space MMO games. EvE doesn't really have competition. Never has really. Dust has some of the toughest competition out there. We'll see what happens I guess.
Joran Myokenes 13	Posted - 2012.09.30 19:25:00 - [85] - Quote Okay, so what if someone has played since the inception of the beta, but they only play every other week, now you've limited the entire community because of one person. This is the same reason that teaching from the lowest level in schools starts to **** people off. A better system would be the multiplier for the SP that you gain every day goes up by one every straight 24 hour period you don't play, then resets to 1 when you play a battle again.(i.e. one day off, get 2 skill points after a period of time where you would usually get 1, then you get 3, then 4, and so on) That way people who don't play a lot will get enough SP to not be ridiculously far behind when they start playing again, but they won't be essentially rewarded for not testing this game. How does that work for you?


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