well 360 secondary turret got fixed for next build.

You will be getting tracking accelerator mods next build as well.

I think some of the nerfs all at once was bad the damage buff for example I think where not needed due to the bugs that need to be fixed by them.

At least the need for gunners and escorts seem to have gone up significantly now for anti-AV functions.

well 360 secondary turret got fixed for next build.

You will be getting tracking accelerator mods next build as well.

I think some of the nerfs all at once was bad the damage buff for example I think where not needed due to the bugs that need to be fixed by them.

At least the need for gunners and escorts seem to have gone up significantly now for anti-AV functions.

Pendulum swings are pretty typical for honing in on some of this stuff. There are two design approaches here:
A.) Only change one variable at a time and monitor the effect. Then adjust. This one takes a long time.
B.) Major pendulum (such as this) from one side back to the other and monitor. Then adjust and hone in. This one takes less time (usually), but will not get you the fine grain like A.

Both lead to points on a graph that indicate problem/solution areas. It would seem in the interest of keeping the masses happy, they felt a major pendulum swing was in order to help motivate certain elements that they are trying to test.

It's nice to actually see a tank go up in smoke once in a while.

from CCP Frame himself: "These will of course not be the last updates in this area, we are working on more as we speak. "

like Dane said, they're not finished. they mike big changes and adjust from there. i'm actually very happy with the way CCP tests things. this is by far the best beta i've ever participated in

This is basically not only undoing a major improvement in tank health (that they needed believe it or not) but making it worse. That's not balancing, that's saying shut up while we take our time doing it right (one hopes at least). The turrets are still completely out of balance and this fix barely touched on that.

good that i have invested half of my SP into infantry and not just 100% tank like some other people did. Oh well time to camp some nano hives and spam sleek av grenades.

With the tracking nerf to large turrets LAVs should at least be able to run rings round a HAV, I'm thinking shield transporters and remote armor reps but I'm also thinking neuts and nos and web etc. could open up loads more fun to be had.

I agree and I've already said in another post, certainly dropships could use a hp or resistance buff, a good one should last a couple of my proto swarms with damage mods, but LAVs should be fairly weak ... it's an open top dune buggy ! a good one should survive a single salvo but be heavily damaged and have to hide and repair.

This probably serves as an indication that we could use a more combat oriented LAV, since the one we have right now operates like an armed scout vehicle. That's in addition by the way, not saying that the current ones need to be re-purposed or something.

Hello everyone,

First of all, awesome thread man, great feedback and I like your attitude to the nerfs, Snake. Now I'm not a HAV driver but as LAV driver I can say that even before the turret turning rate nerf it was possible to run circles around a tank in good circumstances. I'm not saying I was dominating tanks but I did destroy and got destroyed a lot of times and not least by EnglishSnake himself.

I think the changes on tanks are very heavy handed but I think things will be better as new vehicle modules come to the market. I kind of like the idea of eliminating some of these new weaknesses by customizing your tank. For example the module that increases turret speed. Perhaps there should also be a larger difference between different large turrets, for example another railgun that has larger splash radius?

What I do like about what you mentioned is that the extra turret gunners in a tank are becoming more essential and not just some dudes shooting their little guns like fireworks. Now only if they made small blasters and railguns viable too...

Anyways Snake, keep driving that tank man. I love playing against you guys!

Best regards,
Zane Hollgren

https://docs.google.com/a/nd.edu/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am5BtW91ldk3dGIxcWRBVDM3NnJZQlIyVmpZbjBYNEE#gid=0

Have you seen these numbers? The top end sagaris is now a joke. 8 0 sp (not even weaponry, which is technically impossible) militia swarms or 4 prototype swarms with two damage mods will trash it.

Yes tanks blow up easier - though I am not convinced a militia swarm can take anything out but a badly fit tank. Proto grenades plus etc..


I actually quite like your comment/ idea of tanks in a supporting role, taking out installations, enemy clone spawns, and holding objectives but cant go solo on the field. Never did like the idea of tanks being the king of the jungle but thats just me.

But what are your thoughts on the following: Whilst, I kind of agree about the tank not being supported by infantry. But, is that because the infantry aren't supporting the tank, or they just arent interested in supporting the tank - its not their tank, or infantry arent very good generally.

I have been in games against where people who have grouped have dropped in tanks and owned the game. I am not saying the balance / nerf is right and may neeed to change again just an observation.

Part of the problem is AV is ment to be a specialist role ... however since the HAV spamming of the last 2 builds it's become a necessity ... I'm sure people would rather run with infantry grenades but have skilled and now run with AV ones and many people who would just run with assault rifles have invested some points in an advanced swarm launcher because they've needed to.

We won't really know till after the next wipe how many will invest points into anything AV, if the HAVs aren't the same problem they have been until now, then you'll probably find just us select few dedicated AV guys griefing you, but you could go some matches without seeing anything fired against you ... it's possible.

I do think what you said about the railgun is wrong though ... it's been altered to be a specialist AV turret but then you're saying your main problem is with AV infantry not other vehicles ... so why still run the railgun ? Switch to the missiles for a good balance or blasters if you want to go full on for the infantry kills.

Also one AV guy should be able to make a HAV back off and rethink his approach, you shouldn't just be able to sit there repairing the damage. I'm talking about a similarly specced AV and HAV ... a proto swarm with double light damage mods should be able to harass an advanced HAV ( Sagaris Surya) with defence mods, not necessarily kill it solo unless it's a fail fit or driver error, but at least make it turn and run until infantry can clear the area of AV, or as I've said fit your blaster and 1 or 2 shot him/me

Sounds like HAV drivers aren't going 30-0 every game .

Fail troll is fail

I've said this in other threads, but remember that pilot suits as well as (hopefully) passive skill bonuses in the next build will also help buff tanks up. I do agree that the hotfix went a little overboard, but I think they needed to be nerfed so the addition of additional bonuses would not make them capable of shooting the sun and making the the entire system burn in a supernova.

I've not heard anything about any racial bonuses, they were removed from Eve, I don't understand them wanting to introduce them to DUST.

They went from one extreme to the other because they realised HAV drivers had had an easy ride for too long (near 2 full builds) and it's about time they weren't the dominant soloable force on the battlefield.

And the 20% Swarm Launcher nerf at the start of this build and the Forge range cap were only ever temporary.

And finally a very basic AV setup has enough trouble with a militia fit LAV never mind a militia HAV and won't even see a HAV before it is gunned down by anything with a weapon and some things without !

Update 5

I now have the Sagaris with an extra low slot to boot but less CPU

I havnt took it out for a spin because im testing out fits for the sag with the gunlogi, such as filling the lows with nanofibers and be able to speed around the map at 30m/s and tbh it was nice to do that and it was fast suprisingly

Also im trying to test out the 4 resists or the 3 and a DC but since the numbers have changed and the mods dont say what the stacking penalties are so its guess work at best unless someone knows the actual numbers

Plus do the weapon damage modifiers work? im not sure they do and like the dropsuit ones they didnt work for time and they dont change the numbers either on the fitting screen which they should do tbh

Im also seeing tanks with blasters or missile as ther main turrets since its mostly best for infantry but its also easy to take out the tank anyways and i took out around 5 yday with the basic AV stuff by spamming the SL from the top of a hill, hell i run up to them now and spam nades and jump around and spam missiles and they **** themselves and cant do anything if im too close and they do not last the match either anymore

Shield wise i get 600+hp with the sag when compared to the gunlogi, prob equates to about a basic SL volley and it may help but atm fitting wise my CPU is down so im still tweeking stuff and realising i need more CPU so gunlogi is still around for now

This isn't a dig but I noticed in an earlier post you mentioned the cost of a tank being 1.5m . That seems very low to me for a 'game changer' (admittedly we dont have a player market so who knows what the price will be), basically you can earn a new tank on foot within 7 games.

so people are still going around the map by themselves with no support from infantry or a limbus or anything? Tbh AV nades FTW

This isn't a dig but I noticed in an earlier post you mentioned the cost of a tank being 1.5m . That seems very low to me for a 'game changer' (admittedly we dont have a player market so who knows what the price will be), basically you can earn a new tank on foot within 7 games.

That cost is about right for a kitted out gunnlogi or just the Hull for the sagaris. A fitted sagaris will probably set you back 2-3mill.

My Chakram costs 2.6mill for the hull alone. So I don't get to test that all that often anymore since I'm losing every tank I field at the minute. Fitted it comes in at 3.8-4 mill isk and anyone with a "Shock - Heavy" fit can kick it's arse....

HAV's are far from a game changer in their current state. The only way they change the game is that every noob on the field scrambles to get their AV out for the kill.

I wish they'd of been that bothered about killing tanks pre-patch. Perhaps there would've been far less clueless people out there complaining AV was broken.

I've tried various fits and tanks this build. From what I've come to realise is that this nerf has crippled shield tanks and the armour ones have a bit of survivability. Obviously both types are pretty broken at the minute, but this is what I've found experimenting. The only builds that seem to work/survive are Gallente.

Resistances and the DC aren't worth using from what I've noticed. They make little difference so it's better to ignore them and go for more shield/armour instead.

Nanofibers whilst decreasing your HP actually increase survivability now, but only in the sense that it gets you out of harms way quicker. It certainly doesn't guarantee safety but at least you can sometimes get around a corner to break line of sight.

The rail gun nerf has literally put the weapon into a role that I don't quite understand what it's suppoed to do tbh.

Currently the Large Missile is very competant at taking out infantry and not bad on taking out other tanks. The Large Blaster can hit infantry and track them well due to the turret turn speed, it can also rip tanks to pieces at short to medium range.

This leaves the railgun in the position of what I can only think is a anti tank sniper. It's useless for infantry unless you hit them dead on and the turret tracking just can't keep up.

Now I'm not sure about anyone else but I'm fairly sure that sitting on the edge of the map hitting other AV is gonna be the artillery's job. I'm assuming that the Laser turrets will be the snipers?, who knows I'm guessing here.

That means the railgun has no place in usefullness compared to the other types. It's just not effective at anything now where as the others can easily do the job of the rail if not shame it.

That cost is about right for a kitted out gunnlogi or just the Hull for the sagaris. A fitted sagaris will probably set you back 2-3mill.

My Chakram costs 2.6mill for the hull alone. So I don't get to test that all that often anymore since I'm losing every tank I field at the minute. Fitted it comes in at 3.8-4 mill isk and anyone with a "Shock - Heavy" fit can kick it's arse....

HAV's are far from a game changer in their current state. The only way they change the game is that every noob on the field scrambles to get their AV out for the kill.

I wish they'd of been that bothered about killing tanks pre-patch. Perhaps there would've been far less clueless people out there complaining AV was broken.

Actually people didn't before the patch because it was pointless because it took at least 4 guys to take out a well fitted HAV and that is if you could get in a good position to not get killed by the HAV or enemy infantry.

Railgun seem to be long range atm and anti tank, tracking sucks on all turrets it seems but railgun is the worst plus the splash annoys me even when i hit a scout at his feet he takes next to no damage

Im not swapping it out for the missile/blaster since tbh if a railgun tank comes up im ****** but even then it doesnt seem worth it

Nano is did experiment with yday on the gunlogi and going a 30 it was fast all i did was circle the map tbh and ppl were in AV trying to hit me and they did but i wasnt around long enough for the AV guys but neither was i so i didnt really do much except annoy the enemy

Artillery for me also long range like a tank shell massive splash damage and hard hitting

Mostly 4 guys in basic AV stuff because it takes too long to skill up to it, also ISK prices play apart of it and when AV your defense against infantry in general sucks and the AV nerf also ****** things up

Last build 2 proto guys could cause serious damage to a proto tank but since the update a number of different changes has put it all to whack

See I am relatively happy with the nerf to the splash damage. Tanks are anti vehicle, anti installation...... - and then accurate anti infantry. Its the last one I am not convinced by. Heavy artillery on a location is different to the sniping that occurs/ ed.

As to scouts....meh...nothing damages scout suits...

I totally agree with you on SP part /skill up as a counter. Though it might be the right length of time for AV just that speccing into tanks is too quick which means AV isnt on the field at the same time causing an imbalance.

I am looking forward to seeing how many new skills vehicle drivers will need to get their tank working cause at the moment I presume what we are seeing is very basic. though I may be way off here....

This isn't a dig but I noticed in an earlier post you mentioned the cost of a tank being 1.5m . That seems very low to me for a 'game changer' (admittedly we dont have a player market so who knows what the price will be), basically you can earn a new tank on foot within 7 games.

2.2 Mill for my Sagaris.

But either way, why should specing into a tank and using a tank be view as a hobby?!?! Why do most of the AV guys view it this way? What if you had to play as a logi to pay for your little AV hobby? Tanks, when piloted correctly, SHOULD be able to make a living like any other class. When they are not able to do that, they are not balanced correctly. Only sub-par users of any class should have to fall back on militia gear to save up, or else why even have an economy. This "Tank drivers should save up" argument just irritates the hell out of me.

Now, tanks were OP, I do not deny that. My last number crunch on my sagaris was a 42% drop in ehp this build. 42 freaking percent! On top of that the new fit costs almost 1million more isk. Then couple that with AV guys doing 25% more damage these days and what you have is a bunch of paper tigers rolling around the field, not worth the alloys they are made out of.

Tanks need a boost. LAV's need a boost (So that they can actually survive a militia swarm again). Dropships need a HUGE boost. If this doesn't happen, congrats to those who wanted only infantry battles, you now have them. I can't even afford to replace my tank anymore, I can't make money/sp in a dropship. I can't live for but a few seconds in a LAV. I was a pure speced vehicle pilot and in one patch they have nerfed every vehicle into worthless status. I'm out for a while. I'll see you guys next build. I'm heading back to Eve for now.

P.S. To all the AV guys who had to suffer through this under the Tank boost patch. I feel your pain. I'ts our turn. I realize that. I hope it doesn't last as long though.

The ****?

You cant make money?

The thing is espc for me, i dont drive my tank like a tank, i drive the tank like its a glass ship and GTFO at sign of danger

I may do **** all and still earn 200k, i just wont do as much, i can do better out of a tank but i dont want to get out of my tank for some games and i want to play tank man for a while since DUST has offered me the option to do so but at the same time they have taken away the option aswell because i am less useful than support

I make about 140k usually, sometimes 200k. If I can keep my tank alive for 11-15 battles I can replace 1 tank. I can't keep my tank alive for 11-15 battles currently. So no, I can't make money in my tank.

I have 16mil but then again i wont use a tank every game so i pick and choose the time for using a tank plsu i didnt tank up till recently so i have ISK saved

It can be done

I make about 140k usually, sometimes 200k. If I can keep my tank alive for 11-15 battles I can replace 1 tank. I can't keep my tank alive for 11-15 battles currently. So no, I can't make money in my tank.

You really expect to be able to make money driving a Sagaris or Surya every single match?

Advanced and Prototype dropsuits aren't meant to be used every single match, so infantry will need to "save up ISK" in Milita and Standard gear (and Milita gear won't be free soon). Likewise Advanced and Prototype tanks shouldn't be used every single match, so try using Milita and Standard tanks most of the time, and then bring out the big boys for the big battles.

Advanced gear is not meant to make isk. Oh that makes sense. If only the Sica could survive for 15 seconds out there against swarm launchers.

Seriously, I's there one, above par player out there who cannot make isk with an advanced dropsuit

Yes, the tanks are underpowered right now. They'll get better. Oh, and the Sica and Soma aren't completely worthless in the hands of a great driver, even in their current state.

Please tell me where I said good players can't afford running Advanced/Prototype all the time right now. Of course they can when they're up against crap players. Don't expect them to be able to against an entire team of good players.

Advanced and Prototype dropsuits aren't meant to be used every single match, so infantry will need to "save up ISK" in Milita and Standard gear

Ok, if one person can provide an example of using a Sica or a Soma to a positive isk gain, I'd be very surprised. However I welcome the numbers, they would be very interesting. Currently with no data, I do not believe the claim that a militia tank is not completely useless in the best of hands.

My understanding is that the only reason you would have to save up is if you were losing money.