DUST Search - A possible solution to reduce the tank-fest

Craig Greenway wrote:

We have all read about, and encountered first hand the rise in usage of tanks following the reduction of damage against them, but I have only seen solutions about balancing the damage and little else in the way of possible solutions. I will offer my two-penneth for what it is worth.

In the latest batch of changes, we saw the controls of dropships change and the difficult level of piloting them increase. This has led to a reduction in the number of users of dropships in the battles I have been in, as casual dropship users find the controls harder than before and do not want to spend time learning how to fly them properly.

This has led the the better pilots doing what they do best.

My suggestion for resolving the tank-fest is to make the controls more difficult to master. In particular I believe you should not be able to drive a tank and fire at the same time. You should be either a driver or a gunner, and will also make tank owners less inclined to live in their tanks if they only get assist points.

This allows squads to use tanks more realistically, and more likely to share 1 tank rather than 1 each if they cannot drive and fire.

I welcome your comments - anything we can come up with which has a logical reason for change must be good for the game, and as beta testers we have a perfect opportunity to help shape the game for everyone's benefit.

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 17:57:00 - [1] - Quote We have all read about, and encountered first hand the rise in usage of tanks following the reduction of damage against them, but I have only seen solutions about balancing the damage and little else in the way of possible solutions. I will offer my two-penneth for what it is worth. In the latest batch of changes, we saw the controls of dropships change and the difficult level of piloting them increase. This has led to a reduction in the number of users of dropships in the battles I have been in, as casual dropship users find the controls harder than before and do not want to spend time learning how to fly them properly. This has led the the better pilots doing what they do best. My suggestion for resolving the tank-fest is to make the controls more difficult to master. In particular I believe you should not be able to drive a tank and fire at the same time. You should be either a driver or a gunner, and will also make tank owners less inclined to live in their tanks if they only get assist points. This allows squads to use tanks more realistically, and more likely to share 1 tank rather than 1 each if they cannot drive and fire. I welcome your comments - anything we can come up with which has a logical reason for change must be good for the game, and as beta testers we have a perfect opportunity to help shape the game for everyone's benefit.
Patches The Hyena 204	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:07:00 - [2] - Quote Not sure how you make a tank more difficult to drive. So dunno about that But I love the second idea, its the perfect solution. Though a good tank manned by 2 will be even more epic.
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:08:00 - [3] - Quote Patches The Hyena wrote: Not sure how you make a tank more difficult to drive. So dunno about that But I love the second idea, its the perfect solution. Though a good tank manned by 2 will be even more epic. Thanks Patches, I have no issues at all with a 2 or 3 man tank team but fully controlling a tank on your own is a no-no for me
wathak 514 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 106	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:14:00 - [4] - Quote Ya hes right right now the driver is handicapped by the fact he needs to control both main gun and steering wheel . U cant watch the road and shoot a gun at the same time its like texting and driving some can fake it well but noone is actually performing the task. Uyour opening scared me a bit thought u were ganna say dumb down the dropship controls so more people can fly them that be a bad idea as the new physics make the dropship more survivable
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:31:00 - [5] - Quote wathak 514 wrote: Ya hes right right now the driver is handicapped by the fact he needs to control both main gun and steering wheel . U cant watch the road and shoot a gun at the same time its like texting and driving some can fake it well but noone is actually performing the task. Uyour opening scared me a bit thought u were ganna say dumb down the dropship controls so more people can fly them that be a bad idea as the new physics make the dropship more survivable Definitely not wanting to change the dropship controls, I can't fly yet but you should need to learn and master the controls so keep it difficult But that's a different topic haha!
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:33:00 - [6] - Quote Did you know that dropship piloting, despite being one of the hardest things to do in the game, is also one of the worst sources of SP? You never get kills, never capture objectives, never get points for spawns or heals. All of your warpoints come from kill assists. Don't get me wrong, those can add up, but unless your gunners are pulling 20+ kills apiece (not unprecedented) you're going to net less than 30k SP in every match. Compare that to the guys who pull in over 100k SP on average from running heavy suits with HMGs, or just straight up assault with ARs. Why do I bring this up? Because your suggestion would put HAV drivers in the same boat. Fielding a 2 million isk HAV would become almost as poor as source of isk and SP as a dropship is. I won't speculate on whether this is good or bad (I find snipers far more frustrating than HAVs, and I don't find snipers very frustrating), but I bet it would have the effect of making people less likely to field HAVs.
MofaceKilla Algintal Core Gallente Federation 138	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:38:00 - [7] - Quote I like the idea of needing a 2 or 3 man squad to be effective, but don't think it should be any harder to control though especially after taking away the ability to shoot from the guy who's paying for it. I think it would be cool if it were only like this for the cheaper tanks, the more expensive ones should have a gun for the driver as well (but take considerable CPU to fit one instead of extra armor).
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:43:00 - [8] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: ...I bet it would have the effect of making people less likely to field HAVs. That's the intention - only bring tanks in if it is a key / tactical requirement to win a battle, rather than jumping into a HAV as soon as the battle starts just to rank up a 25-0 k/d
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:50:00 - [9] - Quote There's only one reasonable solution and that is to get rid of these high cost tanks altogether and make them cheaper but kill-able. There's no reason why this game should allow a high cost I win button for players to use as it's more or less P2W or G2W. Alternatively the high end super tanks could be purchasable only by corporations and possibly EVE players willing to shed out the required ISK to give their team a boost / reinforcements on the battlefield.
Kincate Algintal Core Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2012.09.03 18:59:00 - [10] - Quote Craig Greenway wrote: We have all read about, and encountered first hand the rise in usage of tanks following the reduction of damage against them, but I have only seen solutions about balancing the damage and little else in the way of possible solutions. I will offer my two-penneth for what it is worth. In the latest batch of changes, we saw the controls of dropships change and the difficult level of piloting them increase. This has led to a reduction in the number of users of dropships in the battles I have been in, as casual dropship users find the controls harder than before and do not want to spend time learning how to fly them properly. This has led the the better pilots doing what they do best. My suggestion for resolving the tank-fest is to make the controls more difficult to master. In particular I believe you should not be able to drive a tank and fire at the same time. You should be either a driver or a gunner, and will also make tank owners less inclined to live in their tanks if they only get assist points. This allows squads to use tanks more realistically, and more likely to share 1 tank rather than 1 each if they cannot drive and fire. I welcome your comments - anything we can come up with which has a logical reason for change must be good for the game, and as beta testers we have a perfect opportunity to help shape the game for everyone's benefit. It would be simpler to increase cost, isk, SP, or both. Besides people probrably didnt use them before not because AV was overpowered but because they where expensive, or you didnt earn as much per match. Now you could replace a well fitted tank in one or two matches. Oh and get rid of militia vehicles.

Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:02:00 - [11] - Quote I don't know why I have to keep saying this, but eWar is coming. Not to mention any number of other weapons and tools. Everything you know about the game's current balance is meaningless. Proposing that one thing be nerfed or another be buffed is a useless exercise at this stage, because a new feature is going to come in and change everything.
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:10:00 - [12] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: I don't know why I have to keep saying this, but eWar is coming. Not to mention any number of other weapons and tools. Everything you know about the game's current balance is meaningless. Proposing that one thing be nerfed or another be buffed is a useless exercise at this stage, because a new feature is going to come in and change everything. Can you tell us what this eWar is and any links to details by any chance?
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:11:00 - [13] - Quote Paying millions of ISK and skill points for a vehicle that you call in and then use as a taxi to ferry around other people so that they can shoot guys with the tank's guns sounds like the least fun thing in the world. Planetside 1 did tanks this way. It sucked immensely. Nobody likes footing the bill for a vehicle and then never having any fun in it. There are better solutions to tanks that don't require such a fundamental shift, I think.
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:12:00 - [14] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: I don't know why I have to keep saying this, but eWar is coming. Not to mention any number of other weapons and tools. Everything you know about the game's current balance is meaningless. Proposing that one thing be nerfed or another be buffed is a useless exercise at this stage, because a new feature is going to come in and change everything. And suggesting you cant drive and shoot in a tank at the same time is not a nerf / buff suggestion, just a functional request
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:14:00 - [15] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Paying millions of ISK and skill points for a vehicle that you call in and then use as a taxi to ferry around other people so that they can shoot guys with the tank's guns sounds like the least fun thing in the world. Planetside 1 did tanks this way. It sucked immensely. Nobody likes footing the bill for a vehicle and then never having any fun in it. There are better solutions to tanks that don't require such a fundamental shift, I think. Thanks Five, do you have any ideas to add to the mix? I was hoping to shift the tanks emphasis to a support role, playing for the squad as much as for yourself. A compromise is if you are driving and want to shoot, you should switch to a position which only the driver can get to (rendering your tank immobile while you fire) - what do you think? Best of both worlds?
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:16:00 - [16] - Quote Craig Greenway wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Paying millions of ISK and skill points for a vehicle that you call in and then use as a taxi to ferry around other people so that they can shoot guys with the tank's guns sounds like the least fun thing in the world. Planetside 1 did tanks this way. It sucked immensely. Nobody likes footing the bill for a vehicle and then never having any fun in it. There are better solutions to tanks that don't require such a fundamental shift, I think. Thanks Five, do you have any ideas to add to the mix? I was hoping to shift the tanks emphasis to a support role, playing for the squad as much as for yourself. A compromise is if you are driving and want to shoot, you should switch to a position which only the driver can get to (rendering your tank immobile while you fire) - what do you think? Best of both worlds? terrible idea. tanks shoot while moving in rl too might be getting what your asking for tho with artillery....but no ones gonna like that lol
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:19:00 - [17] - Quote One of the game changers is the stasis/web grenade that will act like flypaper for vehicles. Toss one and a tank can't run from AV infantry or te stronger OB's that are coming. Toss a fixed Flux grenade and strip the shields off in one go. CCP can't balance everything right nw because all the pieces aren't on the board yet.
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:19:00 - [18] - Quote STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: terrible idea. tanks shoot while moving in rl too might be getting what your asking for tho with artillery....but no ones gonna like that lol In real life, can a tank driver fire while driving single-handedly? I didn't realise that - if that's the case ignore this thread and accept my apologies for wasting everybody's time!
Craig Greenway 21	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:20:00 - [19] - Quote Skihids wrote: One of the game changers is the stasis/web grenade that will act like flypaper for vehicles. Toss one and a tank can't run from AV infantry or te stronger OB's that are coming. Toss a fixed Flux grenade and strip the shields off in one go. CCP can't balance everything right nw because all the pieces aren't on the board yet. Excellent thank you
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:21:00 - [20] - Quote Skihids wrote: One of the game changers is the stasis/web grenade that will act like flypaper for vehicles. Toss one and a tank can't run from AV infantry or te stronger OB's that are coming. Toss a fixed Flux grenade and strip the shields off in one go. CCP can't balance everything right nw because all the pieces aren't on the board yet. thank you

Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:23:00 - [21] - Quote Craig Greenway wrote: Can you tell us what this eWar is and any links to details by any chance? CCP has confirmed in at least one vehicle devblog that eWar will exist, and that vehicles will eventually have capacitors. It seems like the eWar will fall into the same categories as EVE, but how it will be implemented in DUST has, as far as I know, never been explained. Here's how eWar works in EVE Warp Disruption - prevents use of warp drives. Doubt this will be in DUST, since we don't have warp drives. Stasis webifiers - reduces movement speed. I believe they're planning on adding grenades/mines that do this next build. ECM - Breaks target lock. Most stuff in DUST doesn't use locks. Might be used to combat the few things that do, or it might have some other purpose Sensor damps - increases lock-on time and/or reduces lock-on range. Same consideration as ECM vis-a-vis DUST implementation Target Painters - Increase target's signature radius. Maybe used in DUST to mark a target so someone else with a bigger gun can hit it? Tracking disruption - Slows tracking speed and/or lowers range of turrets. Maybe does the same thing in DUST? Maybe temporarily scrambles turret controls? Cap neut/vamp - Drains target's capacitor. Since vehicles will need cap to move, shoot, or activate modules we'll probably see these used a lot to disable vehicles before killing them. Craig Greenway wrote: And suggesting you cant drive and shoot in a tank at the same time is not a nerf / buff suggestion, just a functional request Technically true, but we both know you're not proposing this because you think it'd make a fun change to the way HAVs work. You're proposing it because you want them to be a less common and less powerful force on the battlefield. In other words, to nerf them.
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 173	Posted - 2012.09.03 19:23:00 - [22] - Quote Craig Greenway wrote: STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: terrible idea. tanks shoot while moving in rl too might be getting what your asking for tho with artillery....but no ones gonna like that lol In real life, can a tank driver fire while driving single-handedly? I didn't realise that - if that's the case ignore this thread and accept my apologies for wasting everybody's time! lol in rl drivers get no points cause they cant shoot. thats why there is the tank drivers union to make sure each driver gets paid fairly. put 2 mil into your tank and then ill tell you you cant defend yourself. Craig Greenway wrote: And suggesting you cant drive and shoot in a tank at the same time is not a nerf / buff suggestion, just a functional request [/quote] Technically true, but we both know you're not proposing this because you think it'd make a fun change to the way HAVs work. You're proposing it because you want them to be a less common and less powerful force on the battlefield. In other words, to nerf them.[/quote] yup
ridhiem L.L.A.M.A. Relativity Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.09.04 12:49:00 - [23] - Quote IMO, just make hackable hangars/launchpads/drop beacon for vehicle deployment. Areas without these devices could just be vehicle no-go arenas. If you want, even make the structures reasonably destroyable with limited or no possibility to respawn. Or sticky mines/charges to latch onto vehicles slow enough for you to run up to. I've been playing for roughly a few weeks now, just started to use tanks today. My first impressions of them when i started was not that they were overpowerd, since I managed to take down a few or could just wait until they passed and sneak up behind them to toss grenades. Or my now personal favorite, wander to the outskirts of an area where they usually call tanks, and just shoot the driver before the tank even lands or they can enter it. I only had an issue with them in the heavy suits that could not run to cover fast enough or scoot past the main cannons turning arc. I did however find tanks to be a solution to some, otherwise very irritating, situations. The situations with two supply depots, snipers on all the usual high ground perches covering a good number of points of interest making it VERY obnoxious to be anywhere other then under a rock (or chunk of metal), and folks usually spawning in right in the middle of a bunch of reds for whatever reason. My kill/death ratio in those cases went from 1/10 to about breaking even when i managed to spawn in an area that wasn't instant-death and I could call in a tank. Then have it survive long enough to block off small arms fire so my teammates can group up to make it easyer to actually work together.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 324	Posted - 2012.09.04 13:22:00 - [24] - Quote "There's no reason why this game should allow a high cost I win button" When will people get it out of their heads that having a high number of kills in Dust is not "winning". Every time I'm on a team that wins there's a guy at the top of the other team's scoreboard with a very high k/d ratio. He still lost. I'd also like to know where this idea that tank drivers make tons of SP and isk comes from, because it's flat out wrong. I've been a marauder driver, dedicated assault infantry and dabbled with AV. I almost always made as much SP / isk as a foot soldier if not more. You know why? Kills are a small component of points awarded. A tank can't capture control points. It can't revive or repair teammates. It can't drop uplinks. It can't drop nanohives. Capturing a single objective gets you the same number of points as if you killed 4 people. Combine that with points for teamwork and it has a massive boost on your payout at the end of the match. Of course, we already know most of the people whining about tanks have no idea what teamwork even means. Tronhadar had no problem at all wiping the floor with the Amarr gunnlogis and madrugars in the corp battles, even when they had 3 tanks and we had 1. We didn't kill all of them, but the ones we didn't kill had to hide in the back corner of their base.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.09.04 13:55:00 - [25] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: "There's no reason why this game should allow a high cost I win button" When will people get it out of their heads that having a high number of kills in Dust is not "winning". Every time I'm on a team that wins there's a guy at the top of the other team's scoreboard with a very high k/d ratio. He still lost. I'd also like to know where this idea that tank drivers make tons of SP and isk comes from, because it's flat out wrong. I've been a marauder driver, dedicated assault infantry and dabbled with AV. I almost always made as much SP / isk as a foot soldier if not more. You know why? Kills are a small component of points awarded. A tank can't capture control points. It can't revive or repair teammates. It can't drop uplinks. It can't drop nanohives. Capturing a single objective gets you the same number of points as if you killed 4 people. Combine that with points for teamwork and it has a massive boost on your payout at the end of the match. Of course, we already know most of the people whining about tanks have no idea what teamwork even means. Tronhadar had no problem at all wiping the floor with the Amarr gunnlogis and madrugars in the corp battles, even when they had 3 tanks and we had 1. We didn't kill all of them, but the ones we didn't kill had to hide in the back corner of their base. Ambush. And While I often make more money and SP running around on foot than as a tank gunner (tanks can sometimes struggle to safely get into the action in a timely fashion compared to a scout) all of my top SP matches this build have been inside armor. Capturing stuff is always good for points, but most Logistics guys can attest to the various support skills not being great SP generators. Meanwhile, a tank gunner is netting 35 to 65 points per assist.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 324	Posted - 2012.09.04 14:05:00 - [26] - Quote I get fantastic SP running as logistics. I've had upwards of 60K SP from a round where I took a militia logi suit and didn't hack objectives or kill many people. The biggest trick is putting nanohives in places where people are taking cover. You can 100 support points in less than a minute from a well placed hive. It helps if you have access to a supply depot so you can switch equipment and start getting points for uplink spawns as well.
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 393	Posted - 2012.09.04 15:09:00 - [27] - Quote I like making tank driver and turret operator separate "seats" in a tank...similar to a drop ship. I also am a strong advocate for increasing the cost of tanks by at least three times as much as their current ISK prices.
Rasori GlitchHound DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2012.09.04 15:39:00 - [28] - Quote STB-LURCHASAURUS EV wrote: put 2 mil into your tank and then ill tell you you cant defend yourself. Sounds like what happens with dropships. And a tank is harder to take down than a dropship, meaning it gets more kills, and the driver therefore gets more kill assists.
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2012.09.04 15:40:00 - [29] - Quote isn't it funny how the ppl profiting most from unbalanced tanks seem to have a 24 hour watch on any thread to do with tanks, methinks thou doth protest to much, they also seem to speak a lot like politicians, another indicator of their good intentions.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 324	Posted - 2012.09.04 16:51:00 - [30] - Quote Isn't it funny how people with no idea what the cost vs benefit analysis of using a tank looks like have so much to say about how they should be "balanced"? I don't even drive a tank this build because I wanted to try speccing into logistics. If you think tanks are so ungodly powerful then go train into one and find out how easy they are to lose, and how much less isk and SP you get compared to running and gunning. You can't have much authority about the pros and cons of something in the game until you've been on both sides.



Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page