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Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
   |
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
Cherry Mercenary wrote:Buzzwords wrote:for the record, i see move as a worthless gimmick. but move is a HARMLESS worthless gimmick.
i don't think sonys mad dash to cash in on the popularity of the wii-mote with the retirement home crowd will ever be a legitimately good input device. there's a reason ps3 still comes with a dualshock in the box. Why is Move a harmless worthless gimmick, but not kb+m?
Because he's scarred of PC players (or anyone that realizes KBM is better and will use it) and thinks that Move players suck like the 5 year olds playing CoD on the Wii. I have played with some pretty good move users on MAG before. |
Jinzor Cald
SyNergy Gaming
7
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Posted - 2012.08.16 19:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all. |
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 22:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
With a KBM Im stuck to sniping but its been pretty fun. CCP is treading new ground and it'll take a LOT of revision to get it right. Just give feedback when you can and they'll get it right eventually. |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:56:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jinzor Cald wrote:The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all.
Not really. I unplugged it after the first 5 minutes. It's as a bad as playing CoD on a Wii. |
Cherry Mercenary
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.08.17 04:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Jinzor Cald wrote:The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all. Not really. I unplugged it after the first 5 minutes. It's as a bad as playing CoD on a Wii.
He thinks controls in CoD Wii games are bad look at this guy ahaha |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 04:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cherry Mercenary wrote:Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Jinzor Cald wrote:The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all. Not really. I unplugged it after the first 5 minutes. It's as a bad as playing CoD on a Wii. He thinks controls in CoD Wii games are bad look at this guy ahaha
Because they are, just like they're bad on the PS3 and Xbox. FPS games are best played with KBM, other control styles just feel.. Bad. |
Cherry Mercenary
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.08.17 05:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Because they are, just like they're bad on the PS3 and Xbox. FPS games are best played with KBM, other control styles just feel.. Bad.
Hopefully you aren't that clueless that you think that pointer controls are the same as analog sticks. I wouldn't imagine that you've actually tried them, so I don't know why you would be giving your opinion on them.
Regardless, with all of the keyboard adapters available for the PS3, I've yet to hear of anyone that actually uses KB+M and can keep up with the best players of KZ3, at least. Not saying that kb+m doesn't have a slight edge, but I can never imagine it being the type of advantage people sometimes exaggerate it to be. Plus, Dust isn't the type of game that relies that heavily on aiming in the first place (lolaimassist). Besides, 9 times out of 10 positioning and general tactics usually come before aiming. |
Kovak Therim
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 05:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
What I keep seeing that pisses me off is having an EVE player tell me to learn to use a M/K in order to get into the higher level, better paying areas of the game or be stuck in highsec forever. I've seen it a couple of times ITT, too. |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 05:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Cherry, not sure where you get the idea that I think the Wiimote is the same as a gamepad. Just controls poorly like one. KBM isn't an -insane- advantage, but it is an advantage.
You probably haven't heard that KBM users can keep up with the best players, because KBM isn't used much on PS3. If a player or team is good with a gamepad, then they can choose to use a gamepad and if they win with it, cool beans. But for many of us, playing FPS games on a gamepad is just damn frustrating.
Kovak, you wont "need" KBM to be effective in high level play, but it will be an advantage that you will want to have. For many, even if it wasn't provided naturally in the game, they would be willing to drop the extra cash to gain that advantage over you. So, would you rather have it available to everyone, so that everyone is on an even playing field? Or would you rather only those that buy the extra accessories be able to have an unfair advantage? |
Cherry Mercenary
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.08.17 05:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Just controls poorly like one.
What are you basing this on? |
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Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
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Posted - 2012.08.17 05:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
Cherry Mercenary wrote:Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Just controls poorly like one. What are you basing this on?
Experience. |
Cherry Mercenary
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.08.17 06:05:00 -
[72] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Cherry Mercenary wrote:Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Just controls poorly like one. What are you basing this on? Experience.
I can only imagine you quit before even hitting your first prestige. I can see you making a case against analog sticks, but it's literally point-and-click gameplay. |
Dane Stark
Golgotha Group
178
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Posted - 2012.08.17 13:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:
...you wont "need" KBM to be effective in high level play, but it will be an advantage that you will want to have. For many, even if it wasn't provided naturally in the game, they would be willing to drop the extra cash to gain that advantage over you. So, would you rather have it available to everyone, so that everyone is on an even playing field? Or would you rather only those that buy the extra accessories be able to have an unfair advantage?
How is buying a KB/M for your PS3 not dropping money for an unfair advantage? Not every PS3 owner already has a KB/M just sitting around.
I think CCP has it right - the whole point is to remove all this "advantage" nonsense and make a game that controls equally for all types of controls to the lowest common denominator - the DS3. It seems simple to me. Sure they will need tweaks but I would not look to see your drop suit suddenly spinning around because you use a KB/M.
I for one am thrilled that CCP is actually taking this in to consideration and I'm sure they will tweak it fairly and accordingly. My initial thoughts when I heard KB/M was in was "oh great...there goes the curve..." -- kudos to CCP for proving me wrong! |
Kovak Therim
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 19:35:00 -
[74] - Quote
I'm not picking one side or the other at this point. I just want a balanced game. If the M/K gets buffed to where PC vets want it to be, then 75% of the customer base will move on because they will be using DS3s and getting crushed every time. "Then just learn to use a K/M" is not a valid solution. Why do players want M/K control options? Because they hate/can't use a DS3. I don't want to learn to use a M/K so why should I be forced to on a console game in order to have an even playing field? That's just as wrong. |
Brick Schitthawse
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.08.18 08:05:00 -
[75] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:
They were... similar to the DS3. Basically, you have a box that you can aim in. In that box, it's just like using KBM on any PC FPS game, snappy aiming, precise, yada yada. But, if you reach the egde of your box, BAM! it's like a wall of slow, you're stuck at the DS3 turn speed when you have the joystick pressed all the way to the side. In short, very unnatural, very ******.
Sounds like CCP have balanced it well. it's even stated here that the controls are very similar to DS3, but not PC fluid controls, which can't happen in order to keep the game balanced and even for users of both control systems.
The benefit is there, you will have far more precise control over your aiming that a DS3 player, but once they start strafing it becomes a little more balanced, due to the fact that it appears easier to turn using DS3 than KB/M. This is likely to be really unusual for KB/M users, since it is not what they are used to.
I have no problem with this. If, however, PC users get what they want and have the fast turn rate, precision aiming, then 90% of the game base will disappear. Although, KB/M users will very likely be the minority once the game goes live, until then, the big majority will be EVE players, who through no fault of their own, are using an unfamiliar control system and want what they are used to, but can't happen and stay balanced. The notion that Highsec will be played by DS3 and Nullsec and SOV space will only be contested by KB/M smacks of 'we're using a better control system so we should be getting the better rewards' superiority that I understand to be out there. |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 11:34:00 -
[76] - Quote
90% of the player base will not disappear, as more than 50% of players will probably just be looking for arcade style gameplay, with a more interesting skill system. So now you've got a minority of players, looking to be very hardcore about the game, trying to use every advantage possible. KBM will not hurt the game if allowed to be used as normal - as CCP promised us before beta started. |
Daken Cydonia
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 12:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:90% of the player base will not disappear, as more than 50% of players will probably just be looking for arcade style gameplay, with a more interesting skill system. So now you've got a minority of players, looking to be very hardcore about the game, trying to use every advantage possible. KBM will not hurt the game if allowed to be used as normal - as CCP promised us before beta started.
They also promised balanced controls between DS3 and KBM. I'd say they're very balanced at this time.
CCP: Leave the controls as is, players can Adapt or Die. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 12:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
@Veigar
Sure pal, FPS players always look for a skill system in a FPS instead then good FPS gameplay...keep telling you that.
Also in your first post here you admit you "suck with DS3" which proves that you want MKB just to compensate for you incompetence as a DS3 player.
You are asking CCP to help you when you can't help yourself and learn to play with DS3 like everyone on PS3 does: so sad.
Also if CCP allows the mouse to behave as usual it will basically disadvantage all DS3 players: the ones for which the game is made since we are on PS3 and not on PC.
I have played too many PC FPS to pretend nothing wrong will happen and that I won't get an unfair advantage from using the mouse.
On DS3 you use 1 thumb to aim when instead you control the mouse with you entire arm (hand, palm, fingers, wrist, forearm, etc...) so it's natural that the mouse is more accurate and more effective: deny this and you deny physics.
@Adapt or Die stereotype.
Players will not adapt, and will not die: they/we will LEAVE Dust 514 for better FPS/experinces.
A far more mature behaviour and more clever as well. |
StinkRay II
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 14:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:
Players will not adapt, and will not die: they/we will LEAVE Dust 514 for better FPS/experinces.
+1 |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 14:55:00 -
[80] - Quote
So in a game where part of the balancing mechanism is that different dropsuits have hard caps on their turning rate, KB+M users want their "better" control scheme to allow them to circumvent a legitimate balancing mechanism?
Sounds fair.
Yeah, get over it. It's actually not the first game with mouse and keyboard support that had turning caps - there have been PC FPS games that did it. It takes some getting used to, but it's NOT a bad thing. It's NOT a problem with the controls, it's a problem with users being bad with the controls. If you suck at working within the system's INTENDED limitations, either get better, or go away. There's GOOD REASON for the speed caps. You still get the other benefits of KB+M control - You don't have to choose between aiming precision and turning speed. You can have max (or near-max) turning speed and still have an easy job lining up headshots. For the most part, console players have to EITHER go for fast reponsive controls OR accuracy. |
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Simon Havoc
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
26
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Posted - 2012.08.18 15:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
Grimm Trip wrote:So fun dragging my mouse across my whole desk to track a target in my scope...
HAHAHAHAH I know right? I was a scout and I kept running into stuff because I couldnt turn fast enough. My feet were moving faster than my clones brain because I couldnt turn a page in a book if I wanted to. |
Elron Rection
0
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Posted - 2012.08.19 00:48:00 -
[82] - Quote
To briefly sidestep the argument between KB&M and DS3, let me throw in my 2 cents.
Personally I only purchased the merc pack to for access when I noticed KB&M support was available.
I find the support to be entirely acceptable until I get into any kind of close quarters combat.
I feel that when I move my mouse far enough to trigger the turn limit it should continue to turn just like having the right thumb stick fully extended until I move back in the opposite direction. I can't remember where but I'm sure I've played like that in the past. Not ideal but definitely usable. The limit isn't the issue, it's the fact I regularly find my mouse on the edge of the desk when I've moved all of 45 degrees and often find myself dead when my mouse wasn't even on the desk.
I would like it if a real PC setup is an option at release once input type is a matchmaking option.
Finally, thanks for the support. The PITA that is KB&M is still much more appealing to me than thumbing it. |
Grille Tuna
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 04:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
boohoo on the poor KBM turn try dealing with a DS3 vs a KBM in sniping circumstances. pretty sure the advantages you currently have outweigh the disadvantages if you don't think so go back to your PC and buy a new video card and some RAM while you are at it.:P |
Default Bot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 06:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
I agree.
Just got the Merc pack when I heard KBM support was in and I am disappointed. I feel like I'm driving a boat with the mouse turning speed.
Granted I do play at very high sensitivity on the PC...but the current sensitivity (maxed out at 100) with the KBM controls makes the DS3 seem fast.
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Ronin Odachi
38th Joint Tactical Command
127
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 06:44:00 -
[85] - Quote
MKB needs a little bit of love; the fact that you have to recenter your mouse means you brief periods when you're not turning at all, so mouse sensativity should be able to be at least a little higher when turning. There also needs to be a way to navigate the map, and controls should be configurable so we're not stuck with X to 'nade. Would be really nice if we could use MMB, back or forward buttons, etc. |
Kovak Therim
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 06:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Grille Tuna wrote:boohoo on the poor KBM turn try dealing with a DS3 vs a KBM in sniping circumstances. pretty sure the advantages you currently have outweigh the disadvantages if you don't think so go back to your PC and buy a new video card and some RAM while you are at it.:P
I'm no fan of M/K controls in Dust, but posts like that aren't helping one damn bit.
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suid 0
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.08.19 07:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
In it's current form the kb/m implementation is pretty lol.
I don't even care about the turn speed limiting, it's just that it's been implemented in a way that prevents my character from even being able to turn around.
the funny thing is... it feels very much like a software implementation of the hardware converters, only worse.
Have the eagle eye users gone native or are you all still using your converter devices?
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 07:51:00 -
[88] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Knarf Black wrote:It's probably going to take a lot of tweaking on CCP's part to get it right. They want to make sure that a heavies turn slower than scouts regardless of the controller. Keep playing around with it and let the forum know how it goes. The thing is, heavies don't turn any slower. Assault class with an SG is just as bad as a Heavy with an FG. KBM hardcap turn speed makes it impossible to do anything, thats just not how the controls should feel. I say scrap the hardcap and turn speed limit completely, and make it so HighSec matchmaking battles are made based on control scheme, so that KBM never fight DS3. As an option, you should be able to turn the hardcap turnspeed back on, to play with your DS3 friends - if you feel so inclined. Low/Null-sec should not be gimped just because players are unwilling to do what it takes to win, isn't that the whole idea of EVE?
Why allow aimbots to work better? BTW hardcap turn rate is tied into everything in the game. There may even be modules for it.
hell there are variants of guns that modifies this speed. |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 08:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Grille Tuna wrote:boohoo on the poor KBM turn try dealing with a DS3 vs a KBM in sniping circumstances. pretty sure the advantages you currently have outweigh the disadvantages if you don't think so go back to your PC and buy a new video card and some RAM while you are at it.:P
You do realize, that some of us have consoles because of A) exclusive games, or B) we can't even come close to affording a decent PC setup? One of my brothers has an $850 PC, the other has a $1200 PC. I have $200 in the bank, I can't even afford a low end PC.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Why allow aimbots to work better? BTW hardcap turn rate is tied into everything in the game. There may even be modules for it.
hell there are variants of guns that modifies this speed.
Just because there are turn speeds in everything in the game, doesn't make them realistic. How long does it take you to turn around holding a shotgun? Or perhaps an M1911? Maybe a P90?
Also, how often do you ever run into someone with an AimBot on a console game? You can always cry about people that aim better than you, but realistically there aren't very many modders. |
Melasco514
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.19 09:19:00 -
[90] - Quote
I don't really understand why they had to go add Keyb + Mouse support... They should have left it DS3 / Move only from the start, and there would not have been all this whining. I mean, it's a PS3 exclusive, play the game like a PS3 game.
Not everyone playing BF3 on PC has exactly the same skill with Keyb + Mouse, just like no one playing on PS3 has the same skill with DS3. Why go complicate something that was perfectly simple. If you don't like DS3, either learn to use the damn thing, like any PS3 player had to do the first few weeks of owning a console, or just don't play it.. There are many games I don't play because something in it does not work for me, I don't go cry about it, I just don't play it. Allowing Keyb + Mouse WILL just cause long term frustration for the players and CCP, more than not having the support at all would have had, mark my words...
This was a bad idea, and balancing it perfectly will be close to impossible. Should have left out Keyb + Mouse completely, but I guess time will tell if CCP can make it work. I'm not particularly good with the DS3 or Keyb + Mouse, it's just my opinion that they should have kept controller choice to a minimum. Now they will be dealing with this debate forever, unless they "filter" controllers, and that goes against the spirit of EVE and the whole persistent world thing imo.
I play EVE, I play shooters on PS3, I play shooters on PC using Keyb + Mouse, so please don't tell me I'm some PS3 fanboy, I'm stating what I believe is fact, so let's wait and see... Endless whining I tell ya, just wait and see....
I'm not starting a fight, that's just my opinion, and I'm 100% sure I'm not the only one that feels this way. :)
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