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Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 18:45:00 - [1] - Quote I was so excited when I saw the servers were up, got my KBM ready to go, and got in a game. Long story short, WTF CCP? There is a difference between "balancing" and gimping beyond the point of usefulness. The sensitivity sucks, 80 is slow, 100 is whippy. The turn speed is pathetic. And I noticed my aimer getting locked on enemies. Aim assist on KBM? Come on now. If KBM is going to be a viable control scheme, you're going to need to significantly raise the turn speed cap, or maybe just scrap it. Honestly, if you can make matches based on the control scheme people are using, just don't place KBM players against DS3 players in HighSec or something. With the current available controls, I will never be able to experience what this game is made to be - I suck with the DS3, and the current KBM is unusable.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 19:06:00 - [2] - Quote Arborius Veredus wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: There is a difference between "balancing" and gimping beyond the point of usefulness. The sensitivity sucks, 80 is slow, 100 is whippy. The turn speed is pathetic. And I noticed my aimer getting locked on enemies. Aim assist on KBM? Come on now. There are 20 points of sensitivity between 80 and 100. Something in there should work. The other things are serious problems, though. My point is that 80 is pretty much as slow as anyone might even -possibly- want, and 100 will give you whiplash. There shouldn't only be one option of middle ground (90).
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 19:23:00 - [3] - Quote Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson wrote: Does the sensitivity in the PS3 mouse settings have a role in this some way or are they completely separate? Uh, what?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 19:33:00 - [4] - Quote Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson wrote: Does the sensitivity in the PS3 mouse settings have a role in this some way or are they completely separate? Uh, what? In the PS3 settings you are able to adjust the sensitivity of the mouse... I've never played a game on PS3 that has it's own mouse sensitivity settings. Was wondering if you lower or higher the PS3 mouse sensitivity settings does it effect the sensitivity in game? Oh, no it wouldn't matter. A large part of the issue with the sensitivity is the turn speed cap, so you turn it all the way up and your mouse hits the cap so you can't turn any faster, but if you turn the sensitivity down, the turn speed cap goes down too, so you turn -MUCH- slower.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 20:11:00 - [5] - Quote Knarf Black wrote: It's probably going to take a lot of tweaking on CCP's part to get it right. They want to make sure that a heavies turn slower than scouts regardless of the controller. Keep playing around with it and let the forum know how it goes. The thing is, heavies don't turn any slower. Assault class with an SG is just as bad as a Heavy with an FG. KBM hardcap turn speed makes it impossible to do anything, thats just not how the controls should feel. I say scrap the hardcap and turn speed limit completely, and make it so HighSec matchmaking battles are made based on control scheme, so that KBM never fight DS3. As an option, you should be able to turn the hardcap turnspeed back on, to play with your DS3 friends - if you feel so inclined. Low/Null-sec should not be gimped just because players are unwilling to do what it takes to win, isn't that the whole idea of EVE?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 20:16:00 - [6] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: I agree, i've found myself back at the DS3 because of this. +1 Same here, I'm very disappointed.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 20:34:00 - [7] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Low/Null-sec should not be gimped just because players are unwilling to do what it takes to win, isn't that the whole idea of EVE? Doesn't that mean you should switch to a PS3? You know, to "do what it takes to win"? No, that means if it's gimped this badly permanently, I'm either going to buy a third party device, or suck and not be able to experience this game. KBM would dominate this game regardless of whether or not it was a supported control scheme. Supporting it just means they can control it a little better. Edit: I'm a console gamer, gamepads just suck for FPS and thats a fact.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.14 20:36:00 - [8] - Quote Dante Daedrik wrote: W/e happened to "Adapt or Die"? I have never once preached "adapt or die".
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 01:21:00 - [9] - Quote Maksiu Kolonko wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Dante Daedrik wrote: W/e happened to "Adapt or Die"? I have never once preached "adapt or die". How about HTFU?? Anyway, M&KB does seems terible gimped. My mouse was set to 100 and mouse scout was turning soooo slooooowww still - added precision made those charged sniper shots way more easy so a little of meeeehhh and a chunk of win :) I've never said "adapt or die" "htfu" "console kiddies" or anything of the sort. The fact of the matter is Dust was advertised to have KBM long before beta, and the fact that they implemented it so poorly that it isn't a viable control scheme is a major let down. The precision is no better, perhaps worse, because you have to fight the turn speed on KBM, just as bad fighting the controller when playing with a gamepad. When I have sensitivity up to 100%, my Forge Gun zips around the screen inside my little "aim box" and as soon as I try to make my merc turn, I hit a wall and suddenly aiming slows way down as my merc casually turns.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 01:55:00 - [10] - Quote Grimm Trip wrote: So fun dragging my mouse across my whole desk to track a target in my scope... No kidding. Tracking one target for 5-10 seconds can result in me re-centering my mouse 10-15 times. Oh well though, thats balanced right?

Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 04:05:00 - [11] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: gangsta nachos wrote: Dante Daedrik wrote: W/e happened to "Adapt or Die"? you're funny I think its funny. Lol Um the mouse isnt supposed to be better than a ds3 on a ps3 anyway. I think every suit having a turn limit is a good thing keeps mouse from dominating besides the ds3 as a hard turn limiy I.cant push the controls further than the remote will let me. Then you should buy a KBM. Honestly, I have trouble playing FPS games on consoles just because the controls suck. Sure, Halo was fun, but for whatever reason Bungie just did something so right that the controls felt decent. I use my PS3 for gaming more than my PC (at least I did when I was big into MAG, all I play now is League of Legends), so my opinion is not biased on me being a long time KBM user, it's just a statement of fact that KBM is better suited for FPS gaming. And saying "KBM isn't supposed to be better than DS3 on PS3" is stupid, did you know that the PS3 has native support for KBM? Thats right, you can plug a KBM right into your PS3 and use them to navigate your videos, music, games, the webrowser, and the PS Store! So tell me, how is a KBM not a "normal" control option for the PS3?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 04:47:00 - [12] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: Um the mouse isnt supposed to be better than a ds3 on a ps3 anyway. I think every suit having a turn limit is a good thing keeps mouse from dominating besides the ds3 as a hard turn limiy I.cant push the controls further than the remote will let me. I can't find the quote because Google only turns up stuff about this update, but they explicitly stated they wanted keyboard/mouse support that would make PC players feel like they're playing a FPS on the PC. They want the KB+M support to be flawless. So the fact that it is working like garbage is "a problem", and falls short of the target goal, whatever your opinion on using KB+M might be. Thank you for reminding of their actually description of what they wanted, I'm gonna try to dig that up.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 04:57:00 - [13] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: The turn speed is pathetic. Which suits did you try the turn speed on? The turn speeds should vary based on which suit you're using. Is it comparable to DS3? In other words, are you able to turn at the same speed in the same suit with keyboard & mouse as you were with a DS3? Were you expecting an unfair advantage over DS3 players by being able to flip forward & backward in the blink of an eye just because you had a mouse & keyboard? The beta test is here to make sure that everyone enters a moderately level playing field. Enjoy! They were... similar to the DS3. Basically, you have a box that you can aim in. In that box, it's just like using KBM on any PC FPS game, snappy aiming, precise, yada yada. But, if you reach the egde of your box, BAM! it's like a wall of slow, you're stuck at the DS3 turn speed when you have the joystick pressed all the way to the side. In short, very unnatural, very ****. As stated above: Fivetimes Infinity wrote:** I can't find the quote because Google only turns up stuff about this update, but they explicitly stated they wanted keyboard/mouse support that would make PC players feel like they're playing a FPS on the PC. They want the KB+M support to be flawless. So the fact that it is working like garbage is "a problem", and falls short of the target goal, whatever your opinion on using KB+M might be.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 05:20:00 - [14] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: ...so KB/M is actually WiiMote :P Kind of, except the gun doesn't wiggle around the screen. Try it, just plug a mouse in during the start of a match in a safe spot, and try to aim. Its ******* awkward.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 05:45:00 - [15] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: I know it has native support. I stopped questioning those usb port thingys and the usefulness. I just find ot funny for the intire leagth of the argument for mouse support the ds3 players have said it will have nerfed turn speed and well you all sound surprise that ccp new game meant to lure in new players didnt make eve players feel like gods vs us lowly unworthy console player. Forgive us I full support improving turn speed for mouse people what was I thinking Im enjoying this let me lmao. But truthfully the controls for either one feel clunky in this build so maybe once they fix the games movement in general it will get better wait till they fix that then see if kb/m is still messed up. Almost forgot with that bit of honesty to grovel. Oh mighty evetards. Rofl. Smart* is my job I do it well EVEtard, yeah, thats what I am. I have an EVE account that was active back in december, and I reactivated it a couple days ago. Oh am I ever one godly EVEtard. KBM was promised as it is on PC games, and here they deliver this BS gimped to ** version, so bad that I'd rather just used the DS3. All I can do is be disappointed, considering so far this build is nothing more than shiny.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 05:53:00 - [16] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: it's honestly probably for the best if the KB/M support either went away, or was just left to wither on the vine. it's going to be nothing but divisive. anyone who actually believes it offers no tangible benefit, then why do you want it so badly? if it's all about preference and personal experience, give yourself time to acclimate to the gamepad. right? and if you acknowledge the advantage it gives then... how is that fair? and any argument you can come up with for why it being fair shouldn't matter can immediately be turned back on you. oh it's the console gamers fault for not learning to use KB/M? maybe it's the pc gamers fault for not learning to use a gamepad? so don't bother. at the end of the day, the PC gamers are in the console gamers house here, so tie goes to gamepad. In the end, the PS3 has native support for KBM, so ** your argument, SONY implemented this before CCP did. And yes, it does give an advantage. An advantage that A) CCP can offer to all players without the need for a 3rd party device in the realm of $60-$100 or, B) players that want KBM can go out, buy a 3rd party device, ** you anyway, and now you don't have an easy way to retaliate. I think it's fair to say that in the case of FPS games, console gamers are in the realm of PC gamers. As far as I know, Wolfenstein3D wasn't an Xbox title. I don't think DooM or DukeNukem were either.. Maybe Quake was? hmm... I guess I could be wrong though
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 05:54:00 - [17] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Grouping players by tank usage/EVE playing/input device preference is a good way to make enemies, especially when you only assume it. I look forward to blowing you up with my Forge Gun until the wipe Avenger, then you can come back and QQ about them some more, because a DS3 using, EVE playing, Forge Gunning fellow ended you with a lucky shot It's nice to have people on my side for a change.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 05:58:00 - [18] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Just a nitpick, but aren't the Keyboard and the mouse already third party devices? Depends, are they SONY brand? Or an off brand?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:02:00 - [19] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: because your kb/m work so well that it was clearly meant to be the primary input, and always has been? especially for all those other shooters? ps3 supported linux for a while to, we all make mistakes. So, linux was a mistake? As far as I can tell, the only time anyone made a fuss about it, was when they removed it. Just because developers don't choice to make a native option available, doesn't make it any less viable. Do all games support Move? I don't think so. Just because a game supports something you don't like, doesn't make it a bad idea or a mistake. For those of us that were actually excited about a new -Exciting- game with the proper control scheme available, the current state of KBM is very disappointing.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:03:00 - [20] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Just a nitpick, but aren't the Keyboard and the mouse already third party devices? Depends, are they SONY brand? Or an off brand? I just use Logitech stuff from my Monster Hunter days, so I guess I'm third party trash. Psh, I don't even know what brand my mouse is Logitech definitely makes some quality stuff though.

Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:08:00 - [21] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Lookin foward to it my snipers lining up the shot right now. I think im to drunk to be angry about stupid forges lol. hey other guy I realy do think once movement in general is addresed it will get better for mouses so wait until.ccp checks into that before you going asking for an improvemnt to one system or the other. Movement isn't an issue for me, seems fine. It's turn speed.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:18:00 - [22] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Meh, I use the bargain basement stuff... on topic, although I prefer using the DS3, even if they had fully functional, PC like KB/M support, that isn't the issue. The issue is that they promised KB/M support since before the beta, and they need to come through with those promises to keep the goodwill of the playerbase. I know several people who quit in disgust over the debacle of KB/M. ...I HAVE IT!!! Let the mouse control crosshair roam and turning, but include turning controls ON THE KEYBOARD as well, maybe make them c.v.b.f. or something. You can still aim while turning at a preset speed. It isn't a perfect fix, but please take from this idea what you will. I would like to be credited, but don't let that stop you from making your own posts on the subject :P So, that really -would- make it a wiimote lmao. That would just frustrate me more They said "we want KBM to feel like it does on any PC shooter" and then they trashed it, and said "here, you can pretend this is useful". They should deliver on their promise of an ungimped, useful KBM control scheme.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:21:00 - [23] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: for the record, i see move as a worthless gimmick. but move is a HARMLESS worthless gimmick. i don't think sonys mad dash to cash in on the popularity of the wii-mote with the retirement home crowd will ever be a legitimately good input device. there's a reason ps3 still comes with a dualshock in the box. Never used move before, but I've heard some people love it, and others can't stand it. It comes with a DS3 in the box, so that they can further their income when someone wants move. I personally don't care if move is viable, I care if KBM is. Using a DS3 is awkward, clunky, and not meant for competitive play.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:48:00 - [24] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: and KB/M won't work in my lazy boy so..... we seem to be at an impasse' if everybody was on DS3, it would at least be FAIR. and isn't that step ONE for competitive play? bottom line is the VAST majority of PS3 players use gamepads. they probably game on PS3 because gaming on a pc with a KB/M setup is out of the question. i quite literally could not use a KB/M setup without remodeling... if i wanted to use PC inputs, i'd be playing on PC... so you're asking for CCP to cater to the minority, and telling the rest of us it's our own damn fault? gamepad is simply how it's done on consoles, and it has worked fine so far edit: and i've used a move, it's terrible for FPS. it has all the precision and responsiveness of a gamepad (worse actually) with all the ease of use of KB/M (also potentially worse.) i don't think i've ever spoken to anyone who actually preferred it for fps. i think sony just pushes for move support so they can get another bullet point. You know how I played KBM games in a recliner? Get a piece of plywood, cut a rectangle out that can rest on the arms of your chair, and stick your KBM on it. TADA! Implementing KBM is 100% fair, you're giving 100% of players, 100% opportunity, to use a 100% natural PS3 input device, to play a game on the PS3. Nothing unfair about it. Not implementing KBM would be *-unfair-* because people like me would order ourselves an Eagle Eye or XIM3, and dominate DS3 users anyway. Asking them to not implement it because it's "unfair", is ignorant and misguided. Im also willing to bet that a VAST majority of players in Dust 514 will not be out in NullSec fighting Sov wars, and will be in HighSec playing faction warfare matchmaking games. It's easy enough to only match KBM vs KBM and DS3 vs DS3. For those that are out in NullSec, either give them KBM right off the bat, or they'll find a way to get it anyway.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 06:48:00 - [25] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Walking aroung feels floaty and disconnecting, turning even for my ds3 feels wrong and now that aim assist is down I realise how the guns move around is awful. Maybe im to drunk ill find out tomarrow I think it's fine, might be the alcohol. Wanna share?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.15 20:04:00 - [26] - Quote bump
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:49:00 - [27] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: Walking aroung feels floaty and disconnecting, turning even for my ds3 feels wrong and now that aim assist is down I realise how the guns move around is awful. Maybe im to drunk ill find out tomarrow I think it's fine, might be the alcohol. Wanna share? Yeah it was the alcohol, but the game pace did slow down and the turn speed in general is off for heavys let them fix that along with hit detection and lag before the start tweaking kb/m I still don't have issues with hit detection. Ping is like real life bullet speed - you can't always aim directly at your target. In some cases it's obsurd (ie. leading 2 feet with a shot gun) but most the time it works well for me. Might just be my 25Mb/s connection speed though.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.16 19:01:00 - [28] - Quote Cherry Mercenary wrote: Buzzwords wrote: for the record, i see move as a worthless gimmick. but move is a HARMLESS worthless gimmick. i don't think sonys mad dash to cash in on the popularity of the wii-mote with the retirement home crowd will ever be a legitimately good input device. there's a reason ps3 still comes with a dualshock in the box. Why is Move a harmless worthless gimmick, but not kb+m? Because he's scarred of PC players (or anyone that realizes KBM is better and will use it) and thinks that Move players suck like the 5 year olds playing CoD on the Wii. I have played with some pretty good move users on MAG before.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 03:56:00 - [29] - Quote Jinzor Cald wrote: The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all. Not really. I unplugged it after the first 5 minutes. It's as a bad as playing CoD on a Wii.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 04:59:00 - [30] - Quote Cherry Mercenary wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Jinzor Cald wrote: The mouse and keyboard, IMO, work perfectly well in DUST. Better than having no mouse and keyboard at all. Not really. I unplugged it after the first 5 minutes. It's as a bad as playing CoD on a Wii. He thinks controls in CoD Wii games are bad look at this guy ahaha Because they are, just like they're bad on the PS3 and Xbox. FPS games are best played with KBM, other control styles just feel.. Bad.

Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:42:00 - [31] - Quote Cherry, not sure where you get the idea that I think the Wiimote is the same as a gamepad. Just controls poorly like one. KBM isn't an -insane- advantage, but it is an advantage. You probably haven't heard that KBM users can keep up with the best players, because KBM isn't used much on PS3. If a player or team is good with a gamepad, then they can choose to use a gamepad and if they win with it, cool beans. But for many of us, playing FPS games on a gamepad is just damn frustrating. Kovak, you wont "need" KBM to be effective in high level play, but it will be an advantage that you will want to have. For many, even if it wasn't provided naturally in the game, they would be willing to drop the extra cash to gain that advantage over you. So, would you rather have it available to everyone, so that everyone is on an even playing field? Or would you rather only those that buy the extra accessories be able to have an unfair advantage?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:53:00 - [32] - Quote Cherry Mercenary wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Just controls poorly like one. What are you basing this on? Experience.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.18 11:34:00 - [33] - Quote 90% of the player base will not disappear, as more than 50% of players will probably just be looking for arcade style gameplay, with a more interesting skill system. So now you've got a minority of players, looking to be very hardcore about the game, trying to use every advantage possible. KBM will not hurt the game if allowed to be used as normal - as CCP promised us before beta started.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.19 08:08:00 - [34] - Quote Grille Tuna wrote: boohoo on the poor KBM turn try dealing with a DS3 vs a KBM in sniping circumstances. pretty sure the advantages you currently have outweigh the disadvantages if you don't think so go back to your PC and buy a new video card and some RAM while you are at it.:P You do realize, that some of us have consoles because of A) exclusive games, or B) we can't even come close to affording a decent PC setup? One of my brothers has an $850 PC, the other has a $1200 PC. I have $200 in the bank, I can't even afford a low end PC. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Why allow aimbots to work better? BTW hardcap turn rate is tied into everything in the game. There may even be modules for it. hell there are variants of guns that modifies this speed. Just because there are turn speeds in everything in the game, doesn't make them realistic. How long does it take you to turn around holding a shotgun? Or perhaps an M1911? Maybe a P90? Also, how often do you ever run into someone with an AimBot on a console game? You can always cry about people that aim better than you, but realistically there aren't very many modders.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.20 05:33:00 - [35] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: The whole point is to balance the control methods in stages. Keep giving feedback, because they need it, but this game should -NEVER- group people based on control methods. That is completely counter to the goal of this game, which is to allow everyone to use the control method of their preference without it affecting who they can play the game with. Wouldn't have an effect outside of HighSec matchmaking, and it would stop the crying.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:31:00 - [36] - Quote Whispercrow wrote: This game is crazy. It's the only one where I have to use a mouse, keyboard, and gamepad. Not that I'm complaining, flying things SUCKS in a KBM setup. However... I don't know how people can complain about the sensitivity. Maybe they have super gaming mice or something. I'm using a generic, bargain bin corded USB laser mouse and there isn't enough sensitivity in the game for me. Maybe I need to upgrade hardware, but I have the sensitivity on the PS3 -and- Dust cranke to maximum and it STILL isn't enough. Maybe I should use my PC mouse, but its' one of those MMO edition Nagas, and I really don't want to have to keep moving it back and forth. The sensitivity isn't the issue, it's the model turn speed.

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