DUST Search - Anti-Grind

Red at Math wrote:

With the 4x SP multiplier going away in the next build, I'm told that the SP gains are going to be such that the anti-grind still kicks in at the same SP amounts, but requires MUCH more time to reach. I, and many others, had been providing feedback to CCP on SP gains based on the understanding that a day of playing now to get ~2m SP will mean ~500k SP in the final game. If this is not the case I ask, no I beg, CCP to reconsider.

Under the current mechanics, a player can gain the majority, let's say 75%, of their SP for the day in 1-2 hours of play time. Playing an additional 8 hours on top of that can get that remaining 25%, running into a pretty harsh wall if you try to push past 2m SP in a single day. This means the gap between a player who can play the game for 1-2 hours a day, and a play who can play the game 10 hours a day, isn't that substantial.

As I understand it from speaking to players who have been in the beta since before the 4x multiplier was put in, the Anti-grind will kick in 4x as slow once at normal SP gains, meaning the majority of your SP is no longer gained in that first hour of play, but instead comes in during your first 4 hours of play. This is greatly increasing the gap between the player able to devote some time each night and the player who is playing 12 hours a day every day. I think this is a terrible move for the game, and so should you.

Please reconsider the way this works CCP, or correct me if I'm misunderstanding it...I pray that people I spoke to were just misinformed and CCP isn't creating a game where the only way to remain competitive is to play Dust 9-5 each day.

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Red at Math Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2012.08.10 09:29:00 - [1] - Quote With the 4x SP multiplier going away in the next build, I'm told that the SP gains are going to be such that the anti-grind still kicks in at the same SP amounts, but requires MUCH more time to reach. I, and many others, had been providing feedback to CCP on SP gains based on the understanding that a day of playing now to get ~2m SP will mean ~500k SP in the final game. If this is not the case I ask, no I beg, CCP to reconsider. Under the current mechanics, a player can gain the majority, let's say 75%, of their SP for the day in 1-2 hours of play time. Playing an additional 8 hours on top of that can get that remaining 25%, running into a pretty harsh wall if you try to push past 2m SP in a single day. This means the gap between a player who can play the game for 1-2 hours a day, and a play who can play the game 10 hours a day, isn't that substantial. As I understand it from speaking to players who have been in the beta since before the 4x multiplier was put in, the Anti-grind will kick in 4x as slow once at normal SP gains, meaning the majority of your SP is no longer gained in that first hour of play, but instead comes in during your first 4 hours of play. This is greatly increasing the gap between the player able to devote some time each night and the player who is playing 12 hours a day every day. I think this is a terrible move for the game, and so should you. Please reconsider the way this works CCP, or correct me if I'm misunderstanding it...I pray that people I spoke to were just misinformed and CCP isn't creating a game where the only way to remain competitive is to play Dust 9-5 each day.
Captain-Awesome 38	Posted - 2012.08.10 09:34:00 - [2] - Quote Please don't hurt him, he's just a boy
Jonquill Caronite Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 115	Posted - 2012.08.10 09:55:00 - [3] - Quote Red at Math wrote: With the 4x SP multiplier going away in the next build, I'm told that the SP gains are going to be such that the anti-grind still kicks in at the same SP amounts, but requires MUCH more time to reach. I, and many others, had been providing feedback to CCP on SP gains based on the understanding that a day of playing now to get ~2m SP will mean ~500k SP in the final game. If this is not the case I ask, no I beg, CCP to reconsider. Under the current mechanics, a player can gain the majority, let's say 75%, of their SP for the day in 1-2 hours of play time. Playing an additional 8 hours on top of that can get that remaining 25%, running into a pretty harsh wall if you try to push past 2m SP in a single day. This means the gap between a player who can play the game for 1-2 hours a day, and a play who can play the game 10 hours a day, isn't that substantial. As I understand it from speaking to players who have been in the beta since before the 4x multiplier was put in, the Anti-grind will kick in 4x as slow once at normal SP gains, meaning the majority of your SP is no longer gained in that first hour of play, but instead comes in during your first 4 hours of play. This is greatly increasing the gap between the player able to devote some time each night and the player who is playing 12 hours a day every day. I think this is a terrible move for the game, and so should you. Please reconsider the way this works CCP, or correct me if I'm misunderstanding it...I pray that people I spoke to were just misinformed and CCP isn't creating a game where the only way to remain competitive is to play Dust 9-5 each day. Nope just wrong... Quite to the contrary in fact... Its working as intended... Intention? Reward players for giving 1-2 hours of play daily, so that all players who can give AT LEAST this much time are roughly equal, players who wish to play more, by all means can and are encouraged to, but what wins you experience is NOT grinding on the game for days on end, but being regularly active in general... So frankly your complaint is moot, if you like the game enough to play 10 hours a day GREAT, you'll be rewarded in ISK and connections, and by increasing your natural skill level. However, you won't pull drastically ahead of the guy who has a job, and can't devote his life to a video game, but still gets on and gives his one to two hours, because the game isn't designed to reward kids who live in their basements and have nothing better to do then play video games 24/7.... Not saying that your that kid necessarily, just saying this is what you would be promoting with the typical system...
sansey Inferno Inferno Inc 43	Posted - 2012.08.10 10:11:00 - [4] - Quote only militia stuff its a true hardcore im serious :)
Red at Math Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2012.08.10 10:17:00 - [5] - Quote Jonquill Caronite wrote: Nope just wrong... Quite to the contrary in fact... Its working as intended... Intention? Reward players for giving 1-2 hours of play daily, so that all players who can give AT LEAST this much time are roughly equal, players who wish to play more, by all means can and are encouraged to, but what wins you experience is NOT grinding on the game for days on end, but being regularly active in general... So frankly your complaint is moot, if you like the game enough to play 10 hours a day GREAT, you'll be rewarded in ISK and connections, and by increasing your natural skill level. However, you won't pull drastically ahead of the guy who has a job, and can't devote his life to a video game, but still gets on and gives his one to two hours, because the game isn't designed to reward kids who live in their basements and have nothing better to do then play video games 24/7.... Not saying that your that kid necessarily, just saying this is what you would be promoting with the typical system... Please train reading comprehension to at least level III and try again. The system is promoting that kind of gameplay...it doesn't right now because the 4x SP multiplier means you are hitting the anti-grind faster and so only need to play a little while each day. So the people with jobs and lives outside of Dust can still be competitive...but once that multiplier is removed? 2 hours of gameplay now will mean 8 hours a day every day to keep up...and I have better things to do than live in my parents basement.
Jonquill Caronite Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 115	Posted - 2012.08.10 13:35:00 - [6] - Quote I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the countermeasure to grinding will go down with time. I believe the only thing they are changing is the amount of SP given altogether... It wouldn't make sense to increase the modifier for anti-grinding measures by 4, and decrease SP by four times... All I ever read was a reduction in SP, so I'm unsure where your getting the information that it will also extend the amount of games played before the SP reduction takes place...
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 13:54:00 - [7] - Quote He is saying that mechanic is based on SP gain totals not time. Now I don't know if he is correct but it seems at least plausible. If it is based on a set number of SP that amount needs to be reduced to match the decrease in the amount of SP earned.
Red at Math Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:00:00 - [8] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: He is saying that mechanic is based on SP gain totals not time. Now I don't know if he is correct but it seems at least plausible. If it is based on a set number of SP that amount needs to be reduced to match the decrease in the amount of SP earned. I am saying that. It's been confirmed by CCP Nothin in the past to not be based on any metric of time (it resets at Midnight GMT, but otherwise...), # of matches, etc. Which is great, and I think the best possible system for it, since it means that having a first bad match isn't penalized at all. Thanks for agreeing that the SP ceiling of the anti-grind needs to be reduced as well. From what I'm being told by players who were in the beta before 4x SP gains, that is not how it worked then, hence my concern. I tried to get a direct answer from CCP regarding it in the IRC, but could not, hence why I came to the forums to make CCP and the players aware of the issue.
uruz7 fish FDF Industries Hedonistic Imperative 108	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:03:00 - [9] - Quote LIES! i see nothing in this thread about cookies
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:04:00 - [10] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: He is saying that mechanic is based on SP gain totals not time. Now I don't know if he is correct but it seems at least plausible. If it is based on a set number of SP that amount needs to be reduced to match the decrease in the amount of SP earned. Yes this is the issue. I agree with Red at Math's serious concern and would like a CCP post on the matter.

Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:54:00 - [11] - Quote The whole system needs to be more transparent or at least have a fairly detailed tutorial that explains the limits of maximum SP gain.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.08.10 18:42:00 - [12] - Quote I disagree. CCP has set out to balance skill point acqusition for casual/consistant players and hardcore/grind players. The model as it exists today does that. Hardcore grinders will still be able to and will have more SP then the casual gamer. As someone who has time on weekends and limited time during this hurts me more then it helps me. I just don't see a better system being offered up. So since ccp is willing to listen to ideas, I suggest those have want a better system put forth one. Simply saying remove anti-grind reduction isn't the answer or would holding a QQ fest.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 21:14:00 - [13] - Quote Free Beers wrote: I disagree. CCP has set out to balance skill point acqusition for casual/consistant players and hardcore/grind players. The model as it exists today does that. Hardcore grinders will still be able to and will have more SP then the casual gamer. As someone who has time on weekends and limited time during this hurts me more then it helps me. I just don't see a better system being offered up. So since ccp is willing to listen to ideas, I suggest those have want a better system put forth one. Simply saying remove anti-grind reduction isn't the answer or would holding a QQ fest. I think you may have misunderstood what is being talked about. As I understand the topic there is a set numerical limit for SP gain before diminishing returns kick in. I do not know this is all conjecture. The concern is that after release or next build as someone above mentioned that the SP gains which are currently 4x the rate they will be later that the numerical limit will be the same as it is now. Now the example given was that the limit was 2million which takes about 2-3 hours max for most players. Now that will take four times as long so 8-12 hours before diminishing returns kicks in. So how do you feel about the topic now? What most of us are hoping is that the SP cap will be reduced along with the gains equally
Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.08.11 05:42:00 - [14] - Quote Red at Math wrote: With the 4x SP multiplier going away in the next build, I'm told that the SP gains are going to be such that the anti-grind still kicks in at the same SP amounts, but requires MUCH more time to reach. I, and many others, had been providing feedback to CCP on SP gains based on the understanding that a day of playing now to get ~2m SP will mean ~500k SP in the final game. If this is not the case I ask, no I beg, CCP to reconsider. Under the current mechanics, a player can gain the majority, let's say 75%, of their SP for the day in 1-2 hours of play time. Playing an additional 8 hours on top of that can get that remaining 25%, running into a pretty harsh wall if you try to push past 2m SP in a single day. This means the gap between a player who can play the game for 1-2 hours a day, and a play who can play the game 10 hours a day, isn't that substantial. As I understand it from speaking to players who have been in the beta since before the 4x multiplier was put in, the Anti-grind will kick in 4x as slow once at normal SP gains, meaning the majority of your SP is no longer gained in that first hour of play, but instead comes in during your first 4 hours of play. This is greatly increasing the gap between the player able to devote some time each night and the player who is playing 12 hours a day every day. I think this is a terrible move for the game, and so should you. Please reconsider the way this works CCP, or correct me if I'm misunderstanding it...I pray that people I spoke to were just misinformed and CCP isn't creating a game where the only way to remain competitive is to play Dust 9-5 each day. I'd be fine with it like EVE is. That's the real anti-grind way. You get it flat-rate if you play or not. ISK you earn, if you don't blow it all, but SP would be the same for everyone. I don't want to feel obligated to play every day or for X hours a day to "stay up" with the curve. That's such a huge redeeming thing about EVE. You want something.. you have to be patient. I could only imagine the FPS tears if they did this though. I'm not a fan of dumbing things down for console players. I don't see it as a compliment.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.08.11 06:44:00 - [15] - Quote I had the impression on launch there would be both active and passive skill gain, and ccp was watching how much people ground sp to decide what to set the passive at. So, it would be say 2hour player gets 1/2 sp passive and 1/2 active, guy that grinds 8hr like its a job has same passive and triple the active, but only 2x the sp. If the op is right about the way limit is done, and limit not being lowered, it could be bad. We will have to watch in next build to inform of problem if it happens. I say wait two weeks to see, then resurrect this thread if needed.
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.11 06:59:00 - [16] - Quote If the anti-grind thing were based on time instead of SP (I don't know if it is or not, I'm just saying "if") then that would reward playing well for a few hours instead of just playing for a long time. That would probably be a good thing.
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.11 07:02:00 - [17] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: I could only imagine the FPS tears if they did this though. I'm not a fan of dumbing things down for console players. I don't see it as a compliment. I'd be okay with it also (I'm used to spending a full month training a skill from level 4 to level 5), but CCP wants people other than EVE players to play DUST. It's a delicate balance--dumb things down too much and it becomes just another FPS. Don't dumb it down at all, and it doesn't have very many players and CCP loses money on it.
Rohnan Senkusha Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 40	Posted - 2012.08.11 07:46:00 - [18] - Quote i've only played dust for a little over a month and this character has more SP then my eve char which has been around for a little less then 2 years... this isn't right. so no, im fine with the SP being lowered
Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 104	Posted - 2012.08.11 14:14:00 - [19] - Quote Rohnan Senkusha wrote: i've only played dust for a little over a month and this character has more SP then my eve char which has been around for a little less then 2 years... this isn't right. so no, im fine with the SP being lowered Sp in Dust Gëá Sp in EVE. It is irrelevant whether Dust players gain more sp than EVE players, since sp isn't transferred between characters, and Dust characters have a different skill sheet than EVE players. Skill points are an arbitrary measurement, and since they are so separate in each game, you're essentially comparing apples to oranges.
Ima Leet Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.08.11 16:08:00 - [20] - Quote i'm certain the SP gain is based on games played. my first game is always the best/biggest. slowly going down thereafter. when we are at 1x SP you will see how slow it is to gain SP for everyone. you're not going to want to play long only earning 1k SP a game going 30/0...

Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.11 17:00:00 - [21] - Quote The reduced skill point anti grind mechanism is based on a logarithmic decay function. Look at this graph which displays the properties of a logarithmic decay function. If you were to take the instantaneous y-axis value of the function at any point on the line, that would represent your total SP multiplier for a match. The x-axis is a representation of your total SP's earned since midnight GMT that day. So as you gain more SP's in a day, your rate of SP gain decreases and approaches some asymptotic limit. Balancing this active skill point gain with the passive is a delicate thing and one that could be described mathematically in some detail (CCP does have astrophysicists on the payroll after all) but is difficult to describe in words. As for the OP's concerns, I agree that the scale of the X-axis (rate of SP gain relative to total SP gain that day) should be adjusted in light of the dropping of the 4x multiplier. Also, I think that the asymptotic limit that the function approaches should be roughly 33% that of the passive skill point rate. This way, if you play all day, your SP gains for activity gets to be about 1/3rd of your active (given a long time playing, like 12 hours or more) and the boost at the beginning of the day should be about 5 times the passive SP gain for about two hours. In this way, if the passive skill point gain were 100 points per hour (just making the numbers easy to digest) then in the first 2 hours of active playing in a day, your passive skills will have gone up 200 points and the active will have gone up 2000 points. At the end of the day, playing for two hours will get you 200 passive points and 66 active points. Averaging everything, the extremely active player will receive double the skill points in a day that someone who never logged on gets from passive. I think that is a good balance. So an extremely active player at the end of a month would have 144,000 SP, a completely passive player would have 72,000 and a player who played for 2 hours 3 nights a week would have about 125,000 SP (85% that of the fully active player) These numbers are of course BS and just used to show RELATIVE sp gains.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.11 17:02:00 - [22] - Quote Ima Leet wrote: i'm certain the SP gain is based on games played. my first game is always the best/biggest. slowly going down thereafter. when we are at 1x SP you will see how slow it is to gain SP for everyone. you're not going to want to play long only earning 1k SP a game going 30/0... This is only because your SP gain is based on how many skill points you have already earned that day. So in your first match you have earned 0 skill points and your multiplier is the highest possible, you earn a bunch of SP's as a result. Your second match, you have already earned whatever you earned in the first match, so your multiplier is lower and thus you get a lower SP reward. This trend continues throughout the day as each match adds to your overall active SP gained total and lowers your multiplier.
Mic McCoy Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2012.08.11 21:37:00 - [23] - Quote Just give me skill points over time and be done with it
Mobius Kaethis Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 306	Posted - 2012.08.11 22:25:00 - [24] - Quote +1 to the idea of reducing the anti-grind cap with the new build. Those of us who have jobs cannot play for 10 hours a day. While I would love to do so Dust isn't going to pay for my mortgage.
Scarving Beta 1	Posted - 2012.08.11 23:23:00 - [25] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: +1 to the idea of reducing the anti-grind cap with the new build. Those of us who have jobs cannot play for 10 hours a day. While I would love to do so Dust isn't going to pay for my mortgage. I think you just made the QA/test people at CCP chuckle :D
Parody Walt Kowalsk Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.08.13 10:17:00 - [26] - Quote Red at Math wrote: I'd be fine with it like EVE is. That's the real anti-grind way. You get it flat-rate if you play or not. ISK you earn, if you don't blow it all, but SP would be the same for everyone. I don't want to feel obligated to play every day or for X hours a day to "stay up" with the curve. That's such a huge redeeming thing about EVE. You want something.. you have to be patient. I could only imagine the FPS tears if they did this though. I'm not a fan of dumbing things down for console players. I don't see it as a compliment. This is the reason why I stopped playing EVE after the trial, after a while you end up paying $15 + one month to get that skill point. I'll just want to pay the $15 to get it and stuff waiting a month for it because your not earning the skill point just waiting and paying. With other games you know to get that skill point you have to kill # of things, if it takes you one week or a month, it's up to you and your life commitments. Also with that system if I start now I can never catch up to other players, they will always 2-3 years in front of me no matter what I do.
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 393	Posted - 2012.08.13 20:33:00 - [27] - Quote I am not able to comprehend some of the level of detail in this thread but I support the idea premise of capping SP gain so that people who are playing past 2 hours get SP slower. I also support a sliding scale of base SP for newly created charters over time. By this i mean that if at launch I start with 0 SP, 1 month later a person who creates a new character starts with 100,000 SP and a person who creates a new character 1 year after release starts with 1,200,000 SP. this would allow Dust to keep attracting new players continuously and although they would not have as much SP as people who have been playing for a year, they still would not be back at 0...
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.14 00:12:00 - [28] - Quote Parody Walt Kowalsk wrote: Red at Math wrote: I'd be fine with it like EVE is. That's the real anti-grind way. You get it flat-rate if you play or not. ISK you earn, if you don't blow it all, but SP would be the same for everyone. I don't want to feel obligated to play every day or for X hours a day to "stay up" with the curve. That's such a huge redeeming thing about EVE. You want something.. you have to be patient. I could only imagine the FPS tears if they did this though. I'm not a fan of dumbing things down for console players. I don't see it as a compliment. This is the reason why I stopped playing EVE after the trial, after a while you end up paying $15 + one month to get that skill point. I'll just want to pay the $15 to get it and stuff waiting a month for it because your not earning the skill point just waiting and paying. With other games you know to get that skill point you have to kill # of things, if it takes you one week or a month, it's up to you and your life commitments. Also with that system if I start now I can never catch up to other players, they will always 2-3 years in front of me no matter what I do. But all of the skills only go to level 5 so if you train to five in a specialty, you can catch up to them even if they have been playing for 8 years and you have been playing for 8 months. Granted, they will have more options, but you can certainly catch up. If you had played past the trial you would have seen that. Eve is not a game you can understand in 14 days.


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