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Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.10 15:05:00 - [31] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: So again have you actually used the forge gun yet or are you still basing this on the fact that someone managed to kill you theory when you think it should not have? Edit If you put the point in your OP then it is a main topic of discussion. to more directly answer your question, im not playing thiss week im waiting till after the reset. But come next build after im trained up in my assault/sniper build and my rapid/assault build I replace my assault/av build with a forge gun build
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:57:00 - [32] - Quote My recommendation to you is to wait until you have used before calling for a nerf. I have used and it doesn't always hit a tank at 100 yards so hitting a person at 50 yards is a pretty good trick still especially with how fast infantry can change direction.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.10 19:27:00 - [33] - Quote I still say a weapon thats supposed to be a AV shouldnt be a viable AP weapon as for the range o think the swarm filling mid to long and the forge being short and mid range would be better for gameplay by making player choose between long range AV or short range AV the forge doesnt need accaurcy or range to be a vehicle killer Edit. Fine give me a hour or two and ill set up a forge gun build and judge this weapon first hand.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.10 20:27:00 - [34] - Quote Avengers forge build outfitted with basic stuffs nuked 9 dropsuits got 2 kill assist and died 5 times in my latest match, in some cases I was getting kills I thought best left to snipers. But dont get me wrong my first match with this new build was horible it took me a moment to get used to the charge, but after I learned to time it the forge was a brutal weapon killing infintry at medium short and long range and making vehicles run like hell. I will admit that if I missed that first shot I was good and dead, which is why I am and can practiced because if I had a bit more experence with this weapon that kill death would have been 16/1(i made a stupid one time, practice doesnt help my habit pf making like wile e coyote)
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 20:59:00 - [35] - Quote I never said it could not be used to kill infantry merely that it was difficult to do so with ease. Primary use is still for killing vehicles just because it can kill infantry does not mean it needs to be changed. The splash is barely enough to kill a scout and hitting directly is not an easy feat. Given that most forge gunners hunt tanks and the limited amount of ammo the forge can carry it is generally considered a bad idea to waste a bunch of ammo on infantry. People do it out of convenience and because someone like a sniper is standing still next a wall, or they way out in the open and moving in an easy to predict manner. I still.strongly believe that if you reduce the accuracy you will not only make it harder to hit infantry but tanks and dropships as well. Then what would you do have everyone using swarms because its the only reliable way to get damage on them. Except swarms can be dodged and or forced to run into buildings or walls. Were you here for the last build?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.10 22:48:00 - [36] - Quote A major point of my suggestion was that forg would become short primary AV weapons and swarms would be long range AV weapons. The forge gun would become short range AV but do to the accaurcy nerf they wouldnt be a long range threat were as the swarms do to their spreading out and habit of plowing into things would mostly be longer range AV weapons
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 23:01:00 - [37] - Quote Then forge gunners would be even less effective because they would die so much faster because a fully manned tank can cover 360 degrees and kill them in at most four direct hits unless its using blasters. Being as that a forge gun is the main weapon to destroy a tank that makes them the primary infantry target. As badass as some tanks are fit they still die if they ignore forge guns. Making it a close range weapon means no one will use it because if they get close enough to hit they will die very fast.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 248	Posted - 2012.08.11 12:24:00 - [38] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: at agnk ainst infintry I think that lowering the accaurcy at medium range to the point they cant hit infintry but can still hit vehicles would help, also I think they shpuld have a range lowered as well because sniping with a forge gun is an abuse of what the eapon was intended for. The forge guns is the only heavy weapon worth investing in because on top of its insane AV killing power it CAN kill infintry regularly and consistantly. So why would a heavy want any other weapon if the FG can kill vehicles at any range and it can deal with infintry. The forge gun is better at killing infintry then the HMG which is wrong and it causes the hmg to not be used. What im suggesting is to nerf the accaurcy ao that the forge gun is a useful AV tool at close and mid range. this would cause the Swarm to fill the other half of mid and long range which would cause AV people to choose between being a threat at range or being a threat up close. If the accaurcy is nerfed enough to miss infintry but not tanks at mid range(combined with the buff HMG also on this thread) would cause heavys to choose between AV or AP. Please realize forge sniping works at the moment because of Auto Aim 'capturing' the shot and making insane snipes possible. You are pleased to know that in Precursor -build auto aim is promised to be tamed a lot. I expect that both sniping and anti-personnel issues are much gone by that.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.11 18:39:00 - [39] - Quote I never noticed the tell tell jerkyness from the forge that would indicate excessive aim assist, however aometimes I would over shoot my oppent when I turned it a little to hard and would miss. But will see how this effects it In the next build but in some instances I felt like the gun was being abnormally ungainly but now that I think about it yhis might be be auto aim messing up my normal aim. Will see how it works in the next build. But in the name of balancing and optinions I think it would be better for the forge to fill shot range AV and the swarm fill long range AV.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.11 20:35:00 - [40] - Quote You get right up on that tank and I will laugh at you as it rapes you and then I will kill at a longer range where I am harder to hit.

Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.11 21:58:00 - [41] - Quote My early post clearly say short to mid and mid to long. I just shorten it because I thought I already said that and according to your take on medium range medium range is a clear threat to a tank also your forgetting how cluttered maps are its not like the diffrence between an assault and a heavy a tank can literly not go were infintry, you make it sound like it has constant 360 coverage at all times in your post as well even fully maned tanks are pretty blind on their right side if they are looking any other direction,. Besides if a heavy couldnt use the cover around at short range then it would make no diffrence at any range if theres no cover to begen with then the tank will own at any range. However if the heavy uses the map he can threaten the tank because even with all the tanks range and power it is still a clumbersome vehicle. Nerfing the accaurcy so the gun is only effective at close to mid range would not limit the forge use, the forge would still be heavly used in urban and cluttered maps where the long range swarm would be less effective. So forgw would still be a useful and wouldnt be so OP they would fill in the urban and dense maps AV roles. Now it is my firm beleive that lowering the accaurcy on the forgw wont destroy the weapons use and would go along way to balance the choice of AV fighting. The forge could fill the role of AV weapon at close and mid range filling the criteria for urban and dense map AV needs, while the Swarm would become the mid and long range AV choice great for more spacious and wide open maps allowing players to choose based off what map they were going into rather than all ways choicing the forge.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.08.11 22:09:00 - [42] - Quote I just assume that all weapons with unlimited range like forge guns, rail guns, sniper rifles, mass drivers, and missiles will eventually have hard range limits or drop off put on them.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 00:52:00 - [43] - Quote Kinda the point of this thread
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 01:12:00 - [44] - Quote Except you want to make the forge unusable at long range which if you bothered to read the description in the game you would see that it was clearly meant to be long range from the beginning. A smart tank driver covers the left side of the tank whenever there is no other target to deal with. Also the top.turret is bugged it is not supposed to be stuck.with 180 to the right. Just admit you don't like it because you get killed by it. I almost never do but then again I don't stop moving for long periods of time. What kind of limit would set on a round that has a muzzle velocity of over 7km per second which is 4.375 miles per second. I just can't grasp your logic beyond you don't like it killing you. Try to come up with some real evidence that it should not kill infantry that it hits or even hit close too.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 01:56:00 - [45] - Quote I thought that was the point of me explaining how it would match swarms as mid to long as a counter part for short and mid range. I mean I very clearly explained that it would give AV specialist a choice by being short or long AV weapon. I honestly thought that was the point of the top post on this page. did I not explain how it would fit into gameplay and cause player to think about what kinda AV they would be? What ever the discription says doesnt matter im trying to point out a issue with the forge gun and a way to give gameplay options. As for a specfic reason well its a big heavy peice of equipment that fires a high velocity round from a rather short barrel when compared to other railgun shooting the same size ammo. So accaurcy would be hard to achive with such a short muzzle compared to other railguns. Also the fact the sights are about the size of the cross hairs for most weapons its pretty accaurct if you know how to use it.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 05:28:00 - [46] - Quote The cross hairs of the forge have a half an inch gap in between them. Also the forge is far less accurate than any other weapon aside from maybe the smg or HMG. Tank and turret rails have a dot for dot for a sight where the forge has this great big open space where the round could land anywhere inside it. It got nerfed for this build already. CCP's intent for the forge gun and any weapon in the game is made clear by the description they put on it at least most of this will.be the case. It is working as intended therefore it can not be overpowered. Sagaris are hard to kill already making so that forge gun has less of an opportunity to do its job is just gonna make those damn marauders that much harder to kill. It needs to be powerful it needs to be accurate otherwise it can not do its job. The only way to nerf its ability to kill infantry without hurting its ability to kill high level tanks would be to make it lock on which does not even make sense. Edit The forge gun is actually a piece of mining equipment which was used to very precisely remove chunks of ore from the surrounding rock.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 16:22:00 - [47] - Quote im suggestion is offering an interesting element to AV warfare regardless of what the description most assualt rifles when strafing have the same size hit area, also theres a pretty good chance that the forge round is going to peg what ever is in the middle.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 16:55:00 - [48] - Quote Again don't stand still and they can't hit you with it if you are trying to snipe a heavy with a forge you better kill him before he turns on you that is there is to it. The counter to a heavy is mobility no matter what weapon they if you stop moving you should be killed and so far every example you have given of your personal experience involved you trying to snipe and being killed by a heavy. Shoot, move and communicate. What you are proposing would make tanks OP because now the options to kill them are more limited. The forge is working as intended. Dumb fire AV rockets would be abused in the exact same way and not every AV weapon should be a lock on weapon.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 17:11:00 - [49] - Quote I when im the sniper moving kinda stupid because it mess up my stable shooting position, so moving not realy an option for snipers or I will no longer be a threat. I just want there to be more AV weapons avalible for diffrent circumstances and for yhere to not be just one primary AV weapon I think AV people should have to pick a type of AV to go with depending on the situation. I dont think there should be a single major AV weapon and the single AV weapon shouldnt be as effective against infintry as it is now?
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:14:00 - [50] - Quote Then suggest something besides nerfing one of only two existing AV weapons. Come up with new options that fill the category you think they should. The forge would then most likely become relegated to.long range as it should be. Heavies move slow already give them.a forge they move slower still. Tanks move fast and deal more damage oh and can take a whole lot more damage. It just doesn't make sense when tanks are borderline OP in most situations and outright god like in others.

Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:28:00 - [51] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Then suggest something besides nerfing one of only two existing AV weapons. Come up with new options that fill the category you think they should. The forge would then most likely become relegated to.long range as it should be. Heavies move slow already give them.a forge they move slower still. Tanks move fast and deal more damage oh and can take a whole lot more damage. It just doesn't make sense when tanks are borderline OP in most situations and outright god like in others. simple low ammo rpg for side arm lower the accaurcy on the forge so av players can pick between long or short increase damage of swarms ive also suggested on other forum to make a mass driver built for av action i not seeing your point on how this would kill the forge, the forge woulds till be a good weapon just not the only option, tanks lack mobility that infintry take for granted and infintry can easly slip behind cover that the tank cant follow.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 02:32:00 - [52] - Quote And the tank can run away at 10m per second twice as fast as heavy can move. With distance and elevation the heavy can anticipate where that tank is going. If he has to be really close he will lose the tank.that much faster I have actually tried to engage a tank.at close range. One of two things happened every time he either got away or killed be because I was easy to spot and got hit before I could get behind cover less than two meters/ yards away. The only way to not die horribly is to.have some range or total surprise on your side and range is easier to come.by.
Chao Wolf Imperfects Negative-Feedback 209	Posted - 2012.08.13 02:54:00 - [53] - Quote Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 03:01:00 - [54] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover. This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.13 03:47:00 - [55] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Chao Wolf wrote: Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover. This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it. On the map how often do you use the forge for long range shot? Also the rpg would have 2 or 3 rounds max and would have dmg type for AV so yeah it might OHK normal it wont be used against infintry. I going to argue because I think it effect gameplay by making it a choice between forge and swarm and making it less useable vs infintry because an AV weapon doesnt need to be able to drop infintry its a AV weapon and shouldnt be so readily avalible to use vs infintry. GM since this topic has gotten stuck with both sides using the same argument over and over and both sides showing no signs of changing opinions what do you think?
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 06:14:00 - [56] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Chao Wolf wrote: Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover. This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it. On the map how often do you use the forge for long range shot? Also the rpg would have 2 or 3 rounds max and would have dmg type for AV so yeah it might OHK normal it wont be used against infintry. I going to argue because I think it effect gameplay by making it a choice between forge and swarm and making it less useable vs infintry because an AV weapon doesnt need to be able to drop infintry its a AV weapon and shouldnt be so readily avalible to use vs infintry. GM since this topic has gotten stuck with both sides using the same argument over and over and both sides showing no signs of changing opinions what do you think? Gameplay>realism However an AT4 is extremely effective against infantry if it hits them. BTW if you don't know the AT in AT4 stands for anti tank. Oh yeah they are ridiculously accurate too, out to at least 1500 yards. In reality it is a waste of ammo to fire an anti tank weapon at infantry its just too.damn expensive, BTW it still happens. This however is a video game. Your RPG's could be refilled by a nano hive or supply depot, the problem still exists you just don't want to admit it. Clearly we do need a dev or a gm to sort this out. Your other ideas are at least worth a look but reducing the accuracy of the forge will make it almost worthless. Imagine firing at a moving tank and because now the accuracy is even lower than it already was you missed and he just ran your @ss over or used missiles to splash behind your cover. You go play someone in a fat suit and get close to a tank and see how many times you escape after he sees you. Make sure its a sagaris or a surya that way you win understand how hard those are to kill.
Timothy Reaper ZionTCD Legacy Rising 321	Posted - 2012.08.13 08:42:00 - [57] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Gameplay>realism However an AT4 is extremely effective against infantry if it hits them. BTW if you don't know the AT in AT4 stands for anti tank. Oh yeah they are ridiculously accurate too, out to at least 1500 yards. In reality it is a waste of ammo to fire an anti tank weapon at infantry its just too.damn expensive, BTW it still happens. This however is a video game. Your RPG's could be refilled by a nano hive or supply depot, the problem still exists you just don't want to admit it. Clearly we do need a dev or a gm to sort this out. Your other ideas are at least worth a look but reducing the accuracy of the forge will make it almost worthless. Imagine firing at a moving tank and because now the accuracy is even lower than it already was you missed and he just ran your @ss over or used missiles to splash behind your cover. You go play someone in a fat suit and get close to a tank and see how many times you escape after he sees you. Make sure its a sagaris or a surya that way you win understand how hard those are to kill. Exactly. And in the next build the nanohives are going to have limited nanites (with each type of ammo needing a different amount), so no more infinite forge gun rounds. Personally, I prefer mobility over firepower. I have three different scout builds, one of which is AV. I have a heavy with a forge, but it's a last resort. Why? Because once the target is down (assuming they didn't managed to escape) I'm stuck in a slow moving suit with limited forge rounds and a SMG/pistol. I'm a sitting duck until a vehicle picks me up or I can change at a supply depot. No offense intended to the regular heavy players, it's just not my fort+¬. Edit: The only time I get 'sniped' by a forge gunner is if they get lucky with the first round or I do something stupid, like not moving when I hear the round fly by my head or move in a predictable pattern.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:14:00 - [58] - Quote I be happy and I think a 10% or 20% drop would accomplish what im asking for.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:39:00 - [59] - Quote You realise that the forge guns accuracy rating is only around 65-70% right now right. That btw means that at max effective range 6-7 out of ten rounds will hit a stationery target, and your aim still has be dead on despite how much that thing shakes and bounces. Even against tanks most of the time its a matter of catching them sitting still and then hoping no random infantry runs in front of you of worse yet runs up behind you and blows your damn head off. Go tank hunting next weekend exclusively don't make it about whether or not it can kill infantry and see how it performs at its intended role. Keep track of how many times you miss a tank then imagine missing 10-20% more of the time, then ask yourself would I have still killed that tank. Try to make.sure.you go after some fully loaded missile sagaris tanks too. There is no hiding form them and if you don't get killed by splash they just run away and you even know which way they went because you were hiding behind cover.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:48:00 - [60] - Quote I think it should be a short range to mid range AV weapon my suggestion supports that, but I will try and see how well a forge deals with tanks next week.



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