DUST Search - Av and heavy weapons and suggestion

Avenger 245 wrote:

Bones1182 wrote:

Chao Wolf wrote:

Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover.

This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it.

On the map how often do you use the forge for long range shot? Also the rpg would have 2 or 3 rounds max and would have dmg type for AV so yeah it might OHK normal it wont be used against infintry. I going to argue because I think it effect gameplay by making it a choice between forge and swarm and making it less useable vs infintry because an AV weapon doesnt need to be able to drop infintry its a AV weapon and shouldnt be so readily avalible to use vs infintry.

GM since this topic has gotten stuck with both sides using the same argument over and over and both sides showing no signs of changing opinions what do you think?


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Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.08 23:58:00 - [1] - Quote The forge gun is fine and if you nerf the accuracy at medium range how will it hit a tank at long range. Facing off against a tank close to medium range is suicide if there is a full crew of even halfway decent gunners. Here I go again with you and range the forge guns effective range is 1200m that is approx 13 American football fields in length. Right now you can't even see that far due to limited draw distance. For that weapon long range doesn't even begin until 1000m over 10 of those football fields. That is a very long way.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.09 18:48:00 - [2] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Ten-Sidhe wrote: Other weapon work on both, av grenades for one. Sniper rifles, ar, and smg can take out dropships and lav. I have killed a few tanks with smg, including marauder. I killed enough one match a sagris ran from me chasing it with smg. I did most of damage to his last sagaris with av grenades just finished him with smg so it showered in kill feed, guy must of thought I had the smg of the gods way he ran away. I have also killed two dropships in a row with mass driver, took a lot of practice after seeing it done in a dust video ccp released. Mass driver can also take out tower camping dropships from ground, It can hit them from spots they can not return fire too. I have been sniped by forge guns, the players that did it were very good players. Having used a forge gun, they had skills to pull off those shots. Yes but the FG is the only one that can do it solo and consistantly, if they neref accaurcy and range on the FG it would still be able to kill infintry it just wouldnt be doing it as much. Have you ever killed a tank at full health with a smg? Milita dont count those things are made of paper If they nerf the accuracy at medium range how do you hit a tank at long range? The answer is you wouldn't very often, since tanks move almost 3x the speed of almost any dropsuit(note thus only an estimate). Also the forge gun is supposed to be effective at over half a mile against vehichles, meaning it can hit them reliably, once we have maps with a larger variety of areas or at least the old maps back you won't see as many infantry kills with the forge.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.09 21:52:00 - [3] - Quote Look up the specs the forge gun has an effective range of 1200m that's approximately 1260 yards so it should be able to bit a tank at that range reliably. A tank at that range is not much bigger than infantry at approx 300 yards and it can move a lot faster. I get the impression that you just don't like being killed by the forge. My advice either stay far away from vehicles or at least stay away from heavies. If you turn the corner and see one go the other way or if his back is turned shoot him in the back of the head with a scrambler and enjoy the tears. If you are getting with it running across the open, don't run in the open stay near cover and concealment and they won't hit you so.often. Edit You may to look up the definition of logic. If you reduce the accuracy at mid range the effect on long rang will be much greater making a long range shot on a similarly sized target impossible. By this I am referring to size relative to distance. If an infantry troop is 3 inches tall on your screen at 100 yards then a tank will be about 4-5 inches tall at that same range. Infantry is maybe 1 inch wide and a tank will be about 8-10 inches wide on the broadside. Now lets go out to 300 yards the infantry is now only 1.5-2 inches tall and .5 inches wide the tank will about 3 inches tall and 5-6 inches wide. It is still a big target but if it is head on to the forge it will not be much bigger than a heavy is at 100 yards when the tank is at 300. Making it ridiculously harder to hit.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 00:31:00 - [4] - Quote I see a lot of your opinion of what the forge should be and you continue to ignore what the devs designed it be. The specs are what make it an AV weapon. So to sum up your opinion you want the forge gun, a weapon designed to do significant damage to a tank, to not kill infantry because you either got in the way or called attention to your sniping position without getting the kill. I still think you are likely sniping for far too close to call it sniping. If you want to snipe a heavy with a forge shoot twice then take cover too avoid the shot don't stare at the guy you can't kill before he kills you. *Sings in a military cadence. "Shoot, move and communicate."
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 00:39:00 - [5] - Quote Swarms are primarily anti air not anti tank although they can do both they are really supposed to be for taking down dropships. This is your third of fourth thread about how the forge is OP so just stop now.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 01:36:00 - [6] - Quote Still its the third thread where the forge is a main point. So have you used the forge yet. If not train it try it and maybe you will see that the forge gunner probably fire two or three shot before he hit you or even got close enough to do damage. As for the swarm being primarily anti air it locks on so.that it can track a fast moving target. What about that says that it.should be for taking out slow moving ground targets. My point still stands you don't like how some people use and therefore it should be changed. So far I would be willing to bet that its uses were predicted by CCP long before we came to test the game.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 14:37:00 - [7] - Quote So again have you actually used the forge gun yet or are you still basing this on the fact that someone managed to kill you theory when you think it should not have? Edit If you put the point in your OP then it is a main topic of discussion.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 17:57:00 - [8] - Quote My recommendation to you is to wait until you have used before calling for a nerf. I have used and it doesn't always hit a tank at 100 yards so hitting a person at 50 yards is a pretty good trick still especially with how fast infantry can change direction.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 20:59:00 - [9] - Quote I never said it could not be used to kill infantry merely that it was difficult to do so with ease. Primary use is still for killing vehicles just because it can kill infantry does not mean it needs to be changed. The splash is barely enough to kill a scout and hitting directly is not an easy feat. Given that most forge gunners hunt tanks and the limited amount of ammo the forge can carry it is generally considered a bad idea to waste a bunch of ammo on infantry. People do it out of convenience and because someone like a sniper is standing still next a wall, or they way out in the open and moving in an easy to predict manner. I still.strongly believe that if you reduce the accuracy you will not only make it harder to hit infantry but tanks and dropships as well. Then what would you do have everyone using swarms because its the only reliable way to get damage on them. Except swarms can be dodged and or forced to run into buildings or walls. Were you here for the last build?
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.10 23:01:00 - [10] - Quote Then forge gunners would be even less effective because they would die so much faster because a fully manned tank can cover 360 degrees and kill them in at most four direct hits unless its using blasters. Being as that a forge gun is the main weapon to destroy a tank that makes them the primary infantry target. As badass as some tanks are fit they still die if they ignore forge guns. Making it a close range weapon means no one will use it because if they get close enough to hit they will die very fast.

Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.11 20:35:00 - [11] - Quote You get right up on that tank and I will laugh at you as it rapes you and then I will kill at a longer range where I am harder to hit.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 01:12:00 - [12] - Quote Except you want to make the forge unusable at long range which if you bothered to read the description in the game you would see that it was clearly meant to be long range from the beginning. A smart tank driver covers the left side of the tank whenever there is no other target to deal with. Also the top.turret is bugged it is not supposed to be stuck.with 180 to the right. Just admit you don't like it because you get killed by it. I almost never do but then again I don't stop moving for long periods of time. What kind of limit would set on a round that has a muzzle velocity of over 7km per second which is 4.375 miles per second. I just can't grasp your logic beyond you don't like it killing you. Try to come up with some real evidence that it should not kill infantry that it hits or even hit close too.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 05:28:00 - [13] - Quote The cross hairs of the forge have a half an inch gap in between them. Also the forge is far less accurate than any other weapon aside from maybe the smg or HMG. Tank and turret rails have a dot for dot for a sight where the forge has this great big open space where the round could land anywhere inside it. It got nerfed for this build already. CCP's intent for the forge gun and any weapon in the game is made clear by the description they put on it at least most of this will.be the case. It is working as intended therefore it can not be overpowered. Sagaris are hard to kill already making so that forge gun has less of an opportunity to do its job is just gonna make those damn marauders that much harder to kill. It needs to be powerful it needs to be accurate otherwise it can not do its job. The only way to nerf its ability to kill infantry without hurting its ability to kill high level tanks would be to make it lock on which does not even make sense. Edit The forge gun is actually a piece of mining equipment which was used to very precisely remove chunks of ore from the surrounding rock.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 16:55:00 - [14] - Quote Again don't stand still and they can't hit you with it if you are trying to snipe a heavy with a forge you better kill him before he turns on you that is there is to it. The counter to a heavy is mobility no matter what weapon they if you stop moving you should be killed and so far every example you have given of your personal experience involved you trying to snipe and being killed by a heavy. Shoot, move and communicate. What you are proposing would make tanks OP because now the options to kill them are more limited. The forge is working as intended. Dumb fire AV rockets would be abused in the exact same way and not every AV weapon should be a lock on weapon.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:14:00 - [15] - Quote Then suggest something besides nerfing one of only two existing AV weapons. Come up with new options that fill the category you think they should. The forge would then most likely become relegated to.long range as it should be. Heavies move slow already give them.a forge they move slower still. Tanks move fast and deal more damage oh and can take a whole lot more damage. It just doesn't make sense when tanks are borderline OP in most situations and outright god like in others.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 02:32:00 - [16] - Quote And the tank can run away at 10m per second twice as fast as heavy can move. With distance and elevation the heavy can anticipate where that tank is going. If he has to be really close he will lose the tank.that much faster I have actually tried to engage a tank.at close range. One of two things happened every time he either got away or killed be because I was easy to spot and got hit before I could get behind cover less than two meters/ yards away. The only way to not die horribly is to.have some range or total surprise on your side and range is easier to come.by.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 03:01:00 - [17] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover. This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 06:14:00 - [18] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Chao Wolf wrote: Range is the only thing that can save a forge gun wielding heavy. The turn speed and movement speed are to low for up cqc, and at mid range its to easy to loss sight of your target. The best way I have found to use the fg is to get a decently high vantage point and hope I can put enough rounds into the hav to kill it before it finds complete cover. This exactly nerfing accuracy so that it is close to mid range is just horrible. This guy just doesn't like to be killed ny an AV weapon but suggests an RPG type that will ne used the exact same way to OHK infantry. So I just don't get it. On the map how often do you use the forge for long range shot? Also the rpg would have 2 or 3 rounds max and would have dmg type for AV so yeah it might OHK normal it wont be used against infintry. I going to argue because I think it effect gameplay by making it a choice between forge and swarm and making it less useable vs infintry because an AV weapon doesnt need to be able to drop infintry its a AV weapon and shouldnt be so readily avalible to use vs infintry. GM since this topic has gotten stuck with both sides using the same argument over and over and both sides showing no signs of changing opinions what do you think? Gameplay>realism However an AT4 is extremely effective against infantry if it hits them. BTW if you don't know the AT in AT4 stands for anti tank. Oh yeah they are ridiculously accurate too, out to at least 1500 yards. In reality it is a waste of ammo to fire an anti tank weapon at infantry its just too.damn expensive, BTW it still happens. This however is a video game. Your RPG's could be refilled by a nano hive or supply depot, the problem still exists you just don't want to admit it. Clearly we do need a dev or a gm to sort this out. Your other ideas are at least worth a look but reducing the accuracy of the forge will make it almost worthless. Imagine firing at a moving tank and because now the accuracy is even lower than it already was you missed and he just ran your @ss over or used missiles to splash behind your cover. You go play someone in a fat suit and get close to a tank and see how many times you escape after he sees you. Make sure its a sagaris or a surya that way you win understand how hard those are to kill.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:39:00 - [19] - Quote You realise that the forge guns accuracy rating is only around 65-70% right now right. That btw means that at max effective range 6-7 out of ten rounds will hit a stationery target, and your aim still has be dead on despite how much that thing shakes and bounces. Even against tanks most of the time its a matter of catching them sitting still and then hoping no random infantry runs in front of you of worse yet runs up behind you and blows your damn head off. Go tank hunting next weekend exclusively don't make it about whether or not it can kill infantry and see how it performs at its intended role. Keep track of how many times you miss a tank then imagine missing 10-20% more of the time, then ask yourself would I have still killed that tank. Try to make.sure.you go after some fully loaded missile sagaris tanks too. There is no hiding form them and if you don't get killed by splash they just run away and you even know which way they went because you were hiding behind cover.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.15 10:31:00 - [20] - Quote Well forge gun got nerfed if you die to it now it was almost pure luck on the part of the gunner. I would still recommend you test it out against tanks. Also don't stand still and try to snipe the forge user not at any range he can easily see you anyway. Good luck out there.

Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.15 21:18:00 - [21] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Well forge gun got nerfed if you die to it now it was almost pure luck on the part of the gunner. I would still recommend you test it out against tanks. Also don't stand still and try to snipe the forge user not at any range he can easily see you anyway. Good luck out there. Exactly, now Forge Gun is total crap, I will not skill it when game launch. They didn't touch splash but they cut range - dramatically - now I'm not able to shot camping dropship on the tower. So big "yeaaa!" for everyone that cry on FG, now you will be constantly killed be DS that this time see you. I think they fixed that to You can no longer hit dropships on the towers even though you can see them so we will still be getting raped by tower campers that can see our little asses running around on the ground. My point was always about tanks I forgot about those pesky dropships. Damn, you see this is what happens when everyone cries nerf. We end up with shyt that no longer does its job.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.15 21:55:00 - [22] - Quote Got raped by one last night ten deaths in just a few minutes and yes I was spawning at different places around the map. As soon as I entered his field of vision small missile turret pops up in the kill feed and I am respawning again. The reason you don't see very many up there is because they are a lot harder to fly now so fewer people are flying them just to get up to the towers as it is no longer easy to do it. It requires a very steady hand and pay attention to what you are doing.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.22 20:41:00 - [23] - Quote So goes that forge gun hate going now better now that they are useless against a tank, unless of course the driver is suicidal and sits still less then 100 yards waste from you.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.25 14:41:00 - [24] - Quote Avenger are you still following this thread? If so how is the forge gun hate going for you. You got the nerf you wanted and guess what. It would seem I was right now you trade your clone as heavy for a chance only a chance to damage a tank with a good driver since they can still outrun you. Or if they have decent gunners you just go pop and have to respawn. From what I have been seeing in the few matches I have gotten into the forge is now being used against infantry even more since you cant hit a tank unless you get right into its face. So what are thoughts now?