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Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.07.12 03:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sigh...I just spent the past hour writing what I thought was a very elegant and thoughtful post about why items and skills in Dust should interact more like items and skills in EVE interact...and then the forums ate it...so now you get the short version.
I want Dropsuits and Vehicles in Dust to function more like Ships in EVE, with bonuses according to skill level. There are many versions of Assault Dropsuits, why should they all be the same aside from a couple basic stat differences? Why not an Assault suit that's better at stamina regen, or a Scout suit that could more easily fit an Uplink, or a Heavy that increases the fire rate of a Forge gun?
I want more skills in Dust to have a passive benefit that only affects items that require the skill for use so that Militia Gear isn't affected by the bonus. A purchased Assault Rifle that requires skill in Assault Rifles should get a bonus from the skill, the Militia version shouldn't. Must make using Militia gear a last resort.
I want items in Dust to have lower skill requirements so they're more accessible to the new players, while the bonuses you get from the associated skill make skills more important than gear. I think it would make newer players more eager to continue playing, even while losing, if they know they'll get that shiny new item sooner even if it won't really be a huge upgrade till they invest a few more levels of skill into it.
Currently the EVE Devs are rebalancing all the Frigates in the game to make them all viable for use, they plan to do the rest of the ships in the near future. The reason for this is that EVE was built around the idea of item 'tiers' and I see Dust being built much the same way. I really think the Dust Devs should take a cue from EVE and worry less about restricting access to items and more about making those items unique and useful in the long term. Basic non-Militia items should be the bread and butter of the Dust universe, Advanced and Prototype equipment should be something you pull out when you REALLY need it or want a specific skill bonus that's only available from that more advanced item. You shouldn't be pigeon holed into using the same gear as everyone else or you're going to end up with a bunch of players that all use the same gear and all have the same stats and all the variety of the game and the EVE and Dust universe will be lost to the reality of spreadsheets and 'optimizers'. |
Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.07.12 05:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Agreed, although in eve, modules don't have built in skill bonuses. You either get a bonus built into the skill itself that affects all modules that use that skill (as is the case with all modules), or you get a bonus that is built into the item, but no bonus that is built into the skill (as is the case with all ships). The single biggest reason to have role bonuses for different suits, however, is to differentiate between different racial suits.
Right now, each racial skill unlocks a different suit. Amarr is heavy, caldari is assault, etc. I expect to see racial suits for all suit types in the final build, and in order to really differentiate the suits, they will need role bonuses. The only thing I can see them using to differentiate the suits without role bonuses is adjusting how they tank (caldari heavy would be shield, amarr armor, for example). Perhaps some small differences in speed (Minmatar might give up some tank to be somewhat faster, for example), but I don't think you can mess with that too much, and currently, it can be beneficial to dual tank, which is almost never the case in eve.
You can get by without damage modifiers for most fits. I actually go all the way damage and to hell with the tank, but I've learned that with a sniper rifle as primary weapon, and my relative lack of gun game, if I am taking damage, I'm probably going to go down, and the few hundred extra shields I can cram on my suit won't help me that much.
Edit:
Forums eating my posts are why I have started copying my posts to the clipboard before I post them...that way if the forums eat the post, I can just paste it back in and try again. Also, the forums save a draft every few seconds, and you can usually get it to recover the draft as well. Better to copy to clipboard to be sure, though. |
Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.07.12 05:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ventis Gant wrote:Forums eating my posts are why I have started copying my posts to the clipboard before I post them...that way if the forums eat the post, I can just paste it back in and try again. Also, the forums save a draft every few seconds, and you can usually get it to recover the draft as well. Better to copy to clipboard to be sure, though.
I tend to do that too, but this seemed to be the exception to my habit...I didn't copy my post, which freaked me out when it reloaded the page...but then I saw the 'you have a draft saved' and in a fit of confusion and anxiety over the post I hit ctrl+v as I was clicking on the link to reload my draft and accidentally pasted a post from another forum in the field...which immediately overwrote my saved draft before I could load it, thus deleting the hour's worth of writing and making me feel like I'd just been hit in the gut with a sledgehammer.... |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.07.12 07:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
At the moment I will have to say no to the suits, there arent alot of suits out there and it be better off to have them 1 per level unlock for the moment until we start seeing factional symetry.
I will however have to agree on vehicles, all vehicles should be eve like where training its skill increases its effectiveness. at least an unlock at lvl 1 3 and 5 which would just be additional different roles but overall balanced against each other in the end. For example leve 1 unlock is a MBT which is just overall well rounded lvl 3 is an Invader heavier defenses weaker attack, lvl 5 murader.
BTW see that draft saved button? Click on it next time. |
Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.07.12 08:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:At the moment I will have to say no to the suits, there arent alot of suits out there and it be better off to have them 1 per level unlock for the moment until we start seeing factional symetry.
I will however have to agree on vehicles, all vehicles should be eve like where training its skill increases its effectiveness. at least an unlock at lvl 1 3 and 5 which would just be additional different roles but overall balanced against each other in the end. For example leve 1 unlock is a MBT which is just overall well rounded lvl 3 is an Invader heavier defenses weaker attack, lvl 5 murader.
BTW see that draft saved button? Click on it next time.
Even among the same race the different ships in EVE have different skill bonuses. And the planned balancing is attempting to make them all viable for use, instead of the Rifter being king of all T1 frigs. There are 3 or more different drosuits in each class currently, why not give them each a bonus to differentiate them from one another and reduce the skill requirements to lvl1/2/3 instead of lvl1/4/5?
BTW, see that post I made about having accidentally pasted something in the message field as I was clicking the saved draft button? Next time try reading :P |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.07.12 14:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
The major diference i see in this aspect is that in EVE many diferent ships are designed to be "horizontal" upgrades, meaning we have a lot of choice within the same tier, and low tier variation (only 3 tiers?).
In Dust, to cater to the console crowd, they so far opted for vertical variation, in the sense we keep getting better and better suits without really a horizontal variation, only vertical advancement. Maybe to enhance the "achievement factor".
But yeah, i agree, would be interesting to, instead of having 5 tiers of suits, hava just 2 tiers, where in each tier we woud have like 4 types of suits, each one with a given bonus tied to skills.
We coudl have one that has bonus to speed, other to eletronics, other to armour, other to sight range, etc, or any combination.
Just as we have in EVE ships that give bonus to knetic missile damage, eletronic capacity, etc.
I like the idea, overall.
It would also make for a more level playfield, one of the things that make EVE so good is that theres really fw ships that are really OP, and in most cases any ship will do in a group fight. |
Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.07.12 16:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
More meaningful choices always lead to more meaningful interactions and a higher degree of personal investment.
The more choices we're given, the more we care about the decisions we make and the more attached we become to the results. Allowing greater variety can only lead to greater player interaction. Allowing us access to the choices sooner can only lead to players having a greater attachment to the choices made.
Just look at how EVE's playerbase has become attached to certain ships, the Rifter has become an Icon to EVE players. Every EVE player will recognize a Rifter's profile, how many will recognize a Burst or a Maulus? It's not just the Art Deptartment's fault that the Rifter became an icon, it's because it has been an important part of the EVE universe for nearly a decade. Now other ships are starting to become more noticed, the Incursus, the Merlin, etc... they've becoming more noticeable in space because more players are using them now that they've been rebalanced. We need that sort of diversity in EVE just as we need it in Dust. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 17:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
I really like this idea, and have given a like for it...
BUT I also feel like someone needs to do the devil's advocate line before the rabid FPS fans come in.
Making the high-tier gear even more powerful like this would be bad for game balance, and would further divide new players from experienced people. This all amounts to a problem where skills > skill, and FPS gamers will be put off horribly by that. If this game wants to retain a solid playerbase on console, it will need to have some kind of measure in place to effectively balance this kind of advantage.
I won't say this isn't possible, but I can't think of a good way to implement MORE improvements to high-tier gear without breaking the current system we have with something at least vaguely resembling balance in the game. It's already bordering on unfair, pushing much further would be game-breaking for many people who already want the imbalances toned down between tiers. |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.07.12 17:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
I believe a rework about tiers to make it akin to EVE woudl in fact reduce the "gear gap" between players.
What we have now in dust is something like this, with "gated" gear on every step:
Dropsuit1 > dropsuit2 > Dropsuit 3 > Dropsuit4 > ...
While in EVE we have something like this
Dropsuit1A - At every level of skill1 gain +% of stat-X - Has 100 shield and 80 armour
Dropsuit1B - At every level of skill2 gain +% of stat-Y - Has 80 shield and 100 armour
Dropsuit1C - At every level of skill3 gain +% of stat-Z - Has 80 shield and 80 armour and a bonus to +% of CPU
With this change, every player starting could chose between 1A, 1B or 1C, because they are o the same tier.
Without it, the only way to gain upgrades is a bigger leap into another tier of dropsuit.
While in Dust we have several Tiers, in EVE the most comon is to have just 2 tiers, and very little, expensive, especialized Tier 3 stuff that few peopl fly because of the risk.
So see, in EVE matches between players are more likely to be balanced out than matches in Dust, where a Tier 6 AR (?) can beat a tier 1 AR in sheer dps.
In EVE theres also only 2 tiers of weaponry, and many variation inside the same tier wich is available to all giving some training.
EVE is more inclusive and competitive in its equipment structure then Dust is turning out to be. |
Badly Owned
xOne Man Armyx
49
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Posted - 2012.07.12 17:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
yea but how it is with the 1/4/5 set up if you had a slight and i mean slight skill factor on the level of the skill then at least your level one suit would increase some till it got to the 4/5's. it would make the entry level gear at skill one increase at 2 and 3 skill till you got to 4 then moved onto a new suit. instead of entry, advance, proto would turn more into entry (grows into avarage), advanced, proto. even if the skill is level 5 and you wear the level 1 gear it's still not as good as advanced or proto. as it is now feels like crawling, run, then sprint what happened to the walk? |
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Asno Masamang
Odd Shadows Inc
122
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Posted - 2012.07.12 19:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Greetings,
Garrett Blacknova wrote:This all amounts to a problem where skills > skill, and FPS gamers will be put off horribly by that. If this game wants to retain a solid playerbase on console, it will need to have some kind of measure in place to effectively balance this kind of advantage. In a lot of ways that is what we already have. The higher the character skill the better the gear and it is not really just minor increases as it is in EVE, we are talking some major jumps. When you look at the Scout suit for example the jump between the Type I and the v.k0 is like going from a T1 frigate in EVE to an assault frigate.
What the OP is proposing is that we move closer to what EVE is doing so that the jump from level 1 in scouts to level 5 is more gradual and less jarring. Your Type I suit would be like your Incursus in EVE. It gives you a hint of what will happen when you junp to the Tech II version, but retains it's basic fragility regardless of your character skill.
I also like the OP because I really dislike the way it feels to put SP into a skill for zero gain. Going from level 1 in scout to level 3 is expensive with nothing to show for it. At least in EVE, my Incursus gained 10% damage and 20% fall-off
Please note that militia gear does not count as skilled equipment, so you would not get a performance boost to your militia suit, but your Type I would get better as your scout skill improved. |
Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 19:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Asno Masamang wrote:I also like the OP because I really dislike the way it feels to put SP into a skill for zero gain. Going from level 1 in scout to level 3 is expensive with nothing to show for it. At least in EVE, my Incursus gained 10% damage and 20% fall-off
Please note that militia gear does not count as skilled equipment, so you would not get a performance boost to your militia suit, but your Type I would get better as your scout skill improved.
This! Exactly this!
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way :) |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.07.12 20:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yeah @Asno, in EVE we have fewer Tiers as oposed to Dust where every new Suit is a at a new, upper Tier, and benefits come mostly from skils wich are fairly spread out so the end result is that between the lower masses and the elite theres really not that much of a diference.
What this makes in practice is that in EVe progression is a lot more smooth than in Dust. In EVE theres a lot of small advancements, we sweat for that +1% compounded in 5 levels. In dust we have large leaps because we have so many big Dropsuit steps to climb in terms of advancement.
Maybe a paralell would be a race, where in EVe we have very similar cars running and they have small diferences or adantages between them, and in Dust we have a popular car racing against a ferrari.
All these small advantages should be compunded within the team to yield a strong formup and a victory, and not having big advantages to empower too much the individual and not carrying much for the team work.
One magic aspect of EVe is that everyone has its place, even the noobs. The way Dust is heading, we will probably have a very elitist culture where you will only be able to join a Corp if you have already proto equipment, because otherwise you wont be competitive. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 20:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
If we're looking at a wider variety in functions with a narrower gap between top-tier and cheap gear, I'm all for it. |
Zev Caldari
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
94
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Posted - 2012.07.12 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
I support this message!
Right now DUST really is shaping up to have very rigid tiers of "I win (as long as I don't totally suck)" gear. The talk about AURUM being used to diversify your character is, currently, BS. You use AURUM to get better gear vertically, not laterally like they suggested in so many of the dev videos (don't believe me? Look at the tier stats of non-aurum gear, aurum gear is 1 tier better practically every time and at max tier it uses less CPU/PG allowing an aurum user to fit a better kit over a non-aurum user).
If we diversified the suits and the gear to be tailored to a specific role as suggested in the OP it would help eliminate the vertical AURUM climb and truly allow lateral diversification. |
Lorebot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2012.07.12 20:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ender Storm wrote:Yeah @Asno, in EVE we have fewer Tiers as oposed to Dust where every new Suit is a at a new, upper Tier, and benefits come mostly from skils wich are fairly spread out so the end result is that between the lower masses and the elite theres really not that much of a diference.
What this makes in practice is that in EVe progression is a lot more smooth than in Dust. In EVE theres a lot of small advancements, we sweat for that +1% compounded in 5 levels. In dust we have large leaps because we have so many big Dropsuit steps to climb in terms of advancement.
Maybe a paralell would be a race, where in EVe we have very similar cars running and they have small diferences or adantages between them, and in Dust we have a popular car racing against a ferrari.
All these small advantages should be compunded within the team to yield a strong formup and a victory, and not having big advantages to empower too much the individual and not carrying much for the team work.
One magic aspect of EVe is that everyone has its place, even the noobs. The way Dust is heading, we will probably have a very elitist culture where you will only be able to join a Corp if you have already proto equipment, because otherwise you wont be competitive.
A single player in the most advanced gear available should not be the tipping point in the battle unless he's supporting his teammates or being supported by them.
We want group oriented combat. We want well organized squads and platoons. We want the whole to be more than the sum of its parts.
We don't want a single player in Prototype gear to be able to kill 5 militia geared newbs without slowing down. He should always come out on top against a single player with lesser gear in an even contest. Perhaps even be able to win a 2v1 most of the time, but a 3v1 should be a lost cause regardless of enemy gear and he should want to escape back to the safety of his teammates, and be able to survive long enough to do so even with a few people firing at him. We don't want an even engagement to be decided by just skillpoints or gear alone, but by a combination of skillpoints, gear and actual skill at the game. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well currenlty tier '5' gear is so expensive that I can only afford to lose one per fight if I lose two or more I just wiped out my profits if any that round.
I say that is balance enough considering most of the people who do kill me are in milita gear even though Im fully suited out in prototype. |
Samuel Gadrion
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
I would also like to see Aurum constraindd a little mroe, say to buy either gear with lower skill requirements (real money giving you a time advantage but not a literal advantage) or cosmetic changes. A BPO that makes any armour blue, for example. Insert "cosmetic" slot into fitting, done. But that's a discussion for another time. The idea of a Duster being able to pay for Prototype level gear that's usable with 1 in the relevant skill. I can deal with that. This is money for a time advantage, not a direct and absolute gameplay advantage.
In regards to tier differentiation, I think that it boils down to, firstly, how ungodly badass CCP (and through them, the community) thinks a Duster in all Prototype gear is meant to be. I think a skilled player in Prototype winning a 2-1 fight against Militia gear is reasonable, perhaps even 2-1 in baseline purchased gear, although I'd like to think that the 2 could win that fight with talent and positioning. Secondly, we have to factor in market forces here. As long as the markets balance out cost versus effectiveness they could make a protoypte auto-seeking, brain-exploding deathray and watch people sell single BPCs for a trillion dollars.
And someone would buy it and get spawnkilled.
I think Iron Wolf Saber is spot on. Dust 514 will owe its lateral balance to smart decisions and rigorous observation on CCPs part. Vertical balance will be decided by market forces.
However, that said, we (and CCP) should consider how prevalent BPOs should be. Keeping in mind that any corporation worth its salt will be supplying its Dusters with gear, Prototype BPOs should be rare or nonexistent. THAT would demolish the game balance faster than an arrow to the knee.
Yes, I went there. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Samuel brings up a good point there will come a time NPCs will no longer provide the suits and it will be up to players from both games to make it happen.
It would not susprrise me if protosuits go for a million a pop once this happens and that may be jsut because of its difficulty to contruct and man hours devoured to make the suits.
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Asno Masamang
Odd Shadows Inc
122
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Posted - 2012.07.16 15:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Greetings,
Samuel Gadrion wrote:However, that said, we (and CCP) should consider how prevalent BPOs should be. Keeping in mind that any corporation worth its salt will be supplying its Dusters with gear, Prototype BPOs should be rare or nonexistent. THAT would demolish the game balance faster than an arrow to the knee. As I have stated in other threads, I am not real happy with the suits and the suit skills at present. I feel very strongly that CCP needs to make the suits more like the ships and ship skills in EVE. This would solve the current massive imbalances between the basic suits and protosuits.
You hit the nail on the head here, but not for the reason you might think. Look closely at the names of all of the prototype gear... Unless CCP has jumped track, all of the non-complex prototype gear is faction gear. To me this means that CCP is going to put this stuff behind the LP system. So while it won't be impossible, or even hard to get, it will be very very expensive at first and then the price will start falling after about the first six months.
The other thing you hit was your use of BPOs... At present, the only BPOs available are meta 0 and meta 1, everything beyond that is BPCs, which is as it should be IMO.
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Samuel Gadrion
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.07.27 02:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Asno Masamang wrote:As I have stated in other threads, I am not real happy with the suits and the suit skills at present. I feel very strongly that CCP needs to make the suits more like the ships and ship skills in EVE. This would solve the current massive imbalances between the basic suits and protosuits.
I started a thread. You should comment. |
Shadoe Wolf
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
80
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Posted - 2012.07.27 05:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have to agree with the OP on this. Currently, it sucks having to sink a couple mil of SP into drop suits and get little to show for it.Plus we are at 4x sp gain at the moment, if I understand correctly. Just imagine how long it will take go gain that lvl 4 advanced suit. Even the typical fps gamer would like to see quicker returns than that. I think those gaps need to be closed a little somehow. This does feel like we are jumping from one lvl to another, rather than stepping up |
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