DUST Search - Dust Devs need to pay more attention to what the EVE Devs have learned in the pa...

Ender Storm wrote:

Yeah @Asno, in EVE we have fewer Tiers as oposed to Dust where every new Suit is a at a new, upper Tier, and benefits come mostly from skils wich are fairly spread out so the end result is that between the lower masses and the elite theres really not that much of a diference.

What this makes in practice is that in EVe progression is a lot more smooth than in Dust. In EVE theres a lot of small advancements, we sweat for that +1% compounded in 5 levels. In dust we have large leaps because we have so many big Dropsuit steps to climb in terms of advancement.

Maybe a paralell would be a race, where in EVe we have very similar cars running and they have small diferences or adantages between them, and in Dust we have a popular car racing against a ferrari.

All these small advantages should be compunded within the team to yield a strong formup and a victory, and not having big advantages to empower too much the individual and not carrying much for the team work.

One magic aspect of EVe is that everyone has its place, even the noobs. The way Dust is heading, we will probably have a very elitist culture where you will only be able to join a Corp if you have already proto equipment, because otherwise you wont be competitive.


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Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 03:26:00 - [1] - Quote Sigh...I just spent the past hour writing what I thought was a very elegant and thoughtful post about why items and skills in Dust should interact more like items and skills in EVE interact...and then the forums ate it...so now you get the short version. I want Dropsuits and Vehicles in Dust to function more like Ships in EVE, with bonuses according to skill level. There are many versions of Assault Dropsuits, why should they all be the same aside from a couple basic stat differences? Why not an Assault suit that's better at stamina regen, or a Scout suit that could more easily fit an Uplink, or a Heavy that increases the fire rate of a Forge gun? I want more skills in Dust to have a passive benefit that only affects items that require the skill for use so that Militia Gear isn't affected by the bonus. A purchased Assault Rifle that requires skill in Assault Rifles should get a bonus from the skill, the Militia version shouldn't. Must make using Militia gear a last resort. I want items in Dust to have lower skill requirements so they're more accessible to the new players, while the bonuses you get from the associated skill make skills more important than gear. I think it would make newer players more eager to continue playing, even while losing, if they know they'll get that shiny new item sooner even if it won't really be a huge upgrade till they invest a few more levels of skill into it. Currently the EVE Devs are rebalancing all the Frigates in the game to make them all viable for use, they plan to do the rest of the ships in the near future. The reason for this is that EVE was built around the idea of item 'tiers' and I see Dust being built much the same way. I really think the Dust Devs should take a cue from EVE and worry less about restricting access to items and more about making those items unique and useful in the long term. Basic non-Militia items should be the bread and butter of the Dust universe, Advanced and Prototype equipment should be something you pull out when you REALLY need it or want a specific skill bonus that's only available from that more advanced item. You shouldn't be pigeon holed into using the same gear as everyone else or you're going to end up with a bunch of players that all use the same gear and all have the same stats and all the variety of the game and the EVE and Dust universe will be lost to the reality of spreadsheets and 'optimizers'.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 05:41:00 - [2] - Quote Ventis Gant wrote: Forums eating my posts are why I have started copying my posts to the clipboard before I post them...that way if the forums eat the post, I can just paste it back in and try again. Also, the forums save a draft every few seconds, and you can usually get it to recover the draft as well. Better to copy to clipboard to be sure, though. I tend to do that too, but this seemed to be the exception to my habit...I didn't copy my post, which freaked me out when it reloaded the page...but then I saw the 'you have a draft saved' and in a fit of confusion and anxiety over the post I hit ctrl+v as I was clicking on the link to reload my draft and accidentally pasted a post from another forum in the field...which immediately overwrote my saved draft before I could load it, thus deleting the hour's worth of writing and making me feel like I'd just been hit in the gut with a sledgehammer....
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 08:06:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: At the moment I will have to say no to the suits, there arent alot of suits out there and it be better off to have them 1 per level unlock for the moment until we start seeing factional symetry. I will however have to agree on vehicles, all vehicles should be eve like where training its skill increases its effectiveness. at least an unlock at lvl 1 3 and 5 which would just be additional different roles but overall balanced against each other in the end. For example leve 1 unlock is a MBT which is just overall well rounded lvl 3 is an Invader heavier defenses weaker attack, lvl 5 murader. BTW see that draft saved button? Click on it next time. Even among the same race the different ships in EVE have different skill bonuses. And the planned balancing is attempting to make them all viable for use, instead of the Rifter being king of all T1 frigs. There are 3 or more different drosuits in each class currently, why not give them each a bonus to differentiate them from one another and reduce the skill requirements to lvl1/2/3 instead of lvl1/4/5? BTW, see that post I made about having accidentally pasted something in the message field as I was clicking the saved draft button? Next time try reading :P
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 16:09:00 - [4] - Quote More meaningful choices always lead to more meaningful interactions and a higher degree of personal investment. The more choices we're given, the more we care about the decisions we make and the more attached we become to the results. Allowing greater variety can only lead to greater player interaction. Allowing us access to the choices sooner can only lead to players having a greater attachment to the choices made. Just look at how EVE's playerbase has become attached to certain ships, the Rifter has become an Icon to EVE players. Every EVE player will recognize a Rifter's profile, how many will recognize a Burst or a Maulus? It's not just the Art Deptartment's fault that the Rifter became an icon, it's because it has been an important part of the EVE universe for nearly a decade. Now other ships are starting to become more noticed, the Incursus, the Merlin, etc... they've becoming more noticeable in space because more players are using them now that they've been rebalanced. We need that sort of diversity in EVE just as we need it in Dust.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 19:57:00 - [5] - Quote Asno Masamang wrote: I also like the OP because I really dislike the way it feels to put SP into a skill for zero gain. Going from level 1 in scout to level 3 is expensive with nothing to show for it. At least in EVE, my Incursus gained 10% damage and 20% fall-off Please note that militia gear does not count as skilled equipment, so you would not get a performance boost to your militia suit, but your Type I would get better as your scout skill improved. This! Exactly this! I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way :)
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 20:24:00 - [6] - Quote Ender Storm wrote: Yeah @Asno, in EVE we have fewer Tiers as oposed to Dust where every new Suit is a at a new, upper Tier, and benefits come mostly from skils wich are fairly spread out so the end result is that between the lower masses and the elite theres really not that much of a diference. What this makes in practice is that in EVe progression is a lot more smooth than in Dust. In EVE theres a lot of small advancements, we sweat for that +1% compounded in 5 levels. In dust we have large leaps because we have so many big Dropsuit steps to climb in terms of advancement. Maybe a paralell would be a race, where in EVe we have very similar cars running and they have small diferences or adantages between them, and in Dust we have a popular car racing against a ferrari. All these small advantages should be compunded within the team to yield a strong formup and a victory, and not having big advantages to empower too much the individual and not carrying much for the team work. One magic aspect of EVe is that everyone has its place, even the noobs. The way Dust is heading, we will probably have a very elitist culture where you will only be able to join a Corp if you have already proto equipment, because otherwise you wont be competitive. A single player in the most advanced gear available should not be the tipping point in the battle unless he's supporting his teammates or being supported by them. We want group oriented combat. We want well organized squads and platoons. We want the whole to be more than the sum of its parts. We don't want a single player in Prototype gear to be able to kill 5 militia geared newbs without slowing down. He should always come out on top against a single player with lesser gear in an even contest. Perhaps even be able to win a 2v1 most of the time, but a 3v1 should be a lost cause regardless of enemy gear and he should want to escape back to the safety of his teammates, and be able to survive long enough to do so even with a few people firing at him. We don't want an even engagement to be decided by just skillpoints or gear alone, but by a combination of skillpoints, gear and actual skill at the game.