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JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2015.11.02 01:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:
It would be interesting to see it actually tested though. This is why I wish we had some form of test server...
As if they would allow changes of that type to be tested. |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 01:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
To be honest the lack of micromanagement is what has caused tanking to take a downward spiral in both difficulty and fun. There is far less of a skill factor in piloting as there used to be and in my opinion, that is a huge negative.
Back when tankers needed to cycle often 2-3 hardeners and 1-2 reppera constantly, plus other active modules like damage control units...tanking was an art form. Now you can pretty much derp you way to victory because of superior modules.
As if you'd know anything about module management. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
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Posted - 2015.11.02 03:29:00 -
[33] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
To be honest the lack of micromanagement is what has caused tanking to take a downward spiral in both difficulty and fun. There is far less of a skill factor in piloting as there used to be and in my opinion, that is a huge negative.
Back when tankers needed to cycle often 2-3 hardeners and 1-2 reppera constantly, plus other active modules like damage control units...tanking was an art form. Now you can pretty much derp you way to victory because of superior modules.
As if you'd know anything about module management.
As if you'd know anything about me.
Spkr alt confirmed?
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.11.02 05:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
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Posted - 2015.11.02 06:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts?
I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.11.02 06:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts? I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included.
to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
613
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 15:32:00 -
[37] - Quote
ccp should take the easy route and leave AV as it is and return the way vehicles were/operated and thier varients including the ones they took away back to chromosome and everyone will be in a state of holy balance......... plus i gte my Surya back that i have longed for.
surya and sagaris....R.I.P untill you hit the factory lines again.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47521458/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47521142
Oppose me and you shall incure my wrath.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:ccp should take the easy route and leave AV as it is and return the way vehicles were/operated and thier varients including the ones they took away back to chromosome and everyone will be in a state of holy balance......... plus i gte my Surya back that i have longed for.
surya and sagaris....R.I.P untill you hit the factory lines again.
If CCP did that AV would have to go back to chrome levels as well.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
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Posted - 2015.11.02 20:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts? I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included. to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing.
-_- dude really?
Why are we STILL dancing around these silly ideas instead of going back to a tried and true system of active reps?
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
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Mex-0
Corrosive Synergy
923
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Posted - 2015.11.02 20:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
I liked it back in the day when you could kill a tank with 3 RE's and a flux.
Minmatar at heart
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CLONE117
True Pros Forever
915
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 21:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
i liked having a triple complex reps maddy with 4k armour and a regain of 500 hps..
i swear that was the only thing ccp nerfed from this whole entire thing. everything else was basically left untouched.
great potential is always there..
it just has yet to be realized
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing.
This sounds a lot better, I could just imagine 2 tanks with missiles switching off the hardener while the other reloads, hoping they don't fire before full reload.
Not sure about the 5 second delay before hardener activates... Would need to test before making a call on that... Though I imagine the average av would get sick of tanks timing their hardener/rep just right and staying at full health. Maybe dropping the delay a bit would be best. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.11.02 23:43:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts? I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included. to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing. -_- dude really? Why are we STILL dancing around these silly ideas instead of going back to a tried and true system of active reps?
100% the truth. The hell are we not understanding that Chromosome and the beginning of Uprising were the only times we've have relatively balance and interesting HAV models. Everything after 1.7 has been a bloody joke.
Sure take AV back to those days but then I get my turrets with 200m ranges as well. Better that old model than what we have now,
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.11.03 00:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
My original proposal was a slightly adjusted direct cut of chromosome with a couple tweaks directed at surya supremacy.
It didn't fly.
I'm not going to bang my head on the same wall over and over. So i will keep tossing out ideas until something sticks and works.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
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Posted - 2015.11.03 01:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:My original proposal was a slightly adjusted direct cut of chromosome with a couple tweaks directed at surya supremacy.
It didn't fly.
I'm not going to bang my head on the same wall over and over. So i will keep tossing out ideas until something sticks and works.
Then at the very least push for a slower higher HP model instead of this super repping speed model we currently have. I'd rather have slower reps and a lot more HP to work with.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 06:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:My original proposal was a slightly adjusted direct cut of chromosome with a couple tweaks directed at surya supremacy.
It didn't fly.
I'm not going to bang my head on the same wall over and over. So i will keep tossing out ideas until something sticks and works. Then at the very least push for a slower higher HP model instead of this super repping speed model we currently have. I'd rather have slower reps and a lot more HP to work with.
Honestly as long as hardeners give more overall mitigation than actual plates and extenders, that probably won't happen.
I'd prefer a model where HP mods synergize more with hardeners than with the reps.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
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Posted - 2015.11.03 13:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
They only do that because rep levels are so high and have zero downtime, thus encouraging stacking. Reps that never turn off behave effectively like a plate because they provide consistent mitigation. That's why active reps are so important.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
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THEAMAZING POTHEAD
Nyain San
1
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Posted - 2015.11.03 15:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Y'all understand that tanks are probably the most garbage they've ever been right? Besides maybe right when uprising started and they couldn't even aim up 2 degrees and were slower than a gerbal carrying an HMG.
And the reason they added hardeners is because everyone and their mothers had proto AV, then had proto AV on commandos, meaning ever since commandos got buffs theres been at least 2 proto AVs per team, usually 2-3. In like 5% of games are there less than 2 proto AVs on you in 1 minute after the tank is noticed.
Add to this horrible blasters and 12k hp turrets everywhere.
Honestly saying tanks are even relevant shows you don't play this game.
I haven't gotten killed by a blaster tank LITERALLY since the blaster nerf. Not joking, not exaggerating, literally have not been killed by one. Gotten rail sniped 2 or 3 times, but never blaster'd. And thats with me standing still corner popping with laser rifles.
Your post is making me facepalm. ò.ó
Nyan!~~=[,,..,,]:3
Nyain SanGäó (rated ® for rape) is currently accepting hatemails.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 11:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:I liked it back in the day when you could kill a tank with 3 RE's and a flux.
HAVs need slowed down, massively. Primarily it's their acceleration: HAVs go from 0-60 in about a second, which is just waaay too fast.
Slow down HAV acceleration and there'll be a marked improvement in V/V and V/AV fights.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
493
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 12:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Again, after reading the forum for a second time.... It just looks like vehicles need to take the EvE path. Honestly.
Forever ADS. Best role.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 14:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Mex-0 wrote:I liked it back in the day when you could kill a tank with 3 RE's and a flux. HAVs need slowed down, massively. Primarily it's their acceleration: HAVs go from 0-60 in about a second, which is just waaay too fast. Slow down HAV acceleration and there'll be a marked improvement in V/V and V/AV fights.
On one hand, I'd like to agree, on the other I feel it may become too easy for scouts to pogo past a tank and throw lai dai's at the weakspot... Effectively returning us to redline-rail-514Gäó
I also worry it may just turn tank battles into 2 tanks sitting still pew-pewing each other, because any slow movement will throw off your aim, while the other tank can easily track you without missing.
Perhaps just movement speed reduction during active module use?
Also tempted to say remove fuel injectors from tanks, but with LAV's having so few slots and being so squishy, it would effectively make them unused (excluding the occasional suicide jeep.) |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 19:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Mex-0 wrote:I liked it back in the day when you could kill a tank with 3 RE's and a flux. HAVs need slowed down, massively. Primarily it's their acceleration: HAVs go from 0-60 in about a second, which is just waaay too fast. Slow down HAV acceleration and there'll be a marked improvement in V/V and V/AV fights. On one hand, I'd like to agree, on the other I feel it may become too easy for scouts to pogo past a tank and throw lai dai's at the weakspot... Effectively returning us to redline-rail-514Gäó I also worry it may just turn tank battles into 2 tanks sitting still pew-pewing each other, because any slow movement will throw off your aim, while the other tank can easily track you without missing. Perhaps just movement speed reduction during active module use? Also tempted to say remove fuel injectors from tanks, but with LAV's having so few slots and being so squishy, it would effectively make them unused (excluding the occasional suicide jeep.)
I don't think changing movement alone would make V/V/AV balanced, but it'd be a good step. I do agree with those who want to move to a higher HP/lower regen model, and the movement change would be a good part of that.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4
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Posted - 2015.11.04 19:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Again, after reading the forum for a second time.... It just looks like vehicles need to take the EvE path. Honestly.
CCP will never add capacitors, the butthurt of AV/infantry over a pilots ability to micromanage every module to the point of being able to survive quite well and against the odds due to pilots skill will overload the forum.
It was bad enough in Chromosome and before that, even Uprising and the shambles that was the vehicle rework did that twice more and that was when pilots lost more skills, modules, perks and vehicles/slots.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Well you both have a point (pokey and Roger)
See, micromanagement will separate the boys from the men. While you're going around... You have to think about your cap... How much do I have? Can i turn on a shield booster or armor repair if i need it? Will i use up my cap with my hybrid turret accidentally? What's the usage drain of the hardener looking like? This enemy tank has it's hardener on, but for how long? How much cap does the enemy have; how long will I wait? If i turn on all my modules can I quickly finish the fight or... Will I be completely exposed?
A lot of questions come up... Good pilots will answer them correctly based on situation, bad pilots will not... Skill becomes so heavily involved now.
But as Roger points out, a little too heavily involved for the type of system everyone is so used to. The good pilots will become the few, just like with ADS... Which I don't mind! But, it's the bad group that'll be up in arms on the forums... Tons will complain about the difficulty... Without a tutorial, many people won't even understand what cap is.... So why not change it to something we are all familiar with?
Still... I prefer cap... Maybe i'd start writing down tank pilot names, too. if that happens.
The way it would have to be implemented is like......... Any ordinary skirm, dom, etc... Just switch modules in that mode from typical on or off to use up, wait till full again.
I don't think the idea of a management system is bad, I just think it being unified is the bad part, because it adds a full layer of things you have to think about, and seeing as HAV's are becoming more and more like glass cannons, that is something that isn't recommended. It would be fine if it was separate, like cloaks (so in a sense, a Cap for all the modules), as you can easily look at the modules in a sweep and see what can/should/needs to be turned on or off at any given moment. You'd think that would be slower or more clunky, but compared to having to crunch math in your head, scanning and thinking would be a lot easier, and it would still stay true to the more action-based style of Dust. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
Although that is true, Adding caps means you would have to manage all of that together, constantly having to think about what modules you have on, what modules drain more than others, etc. It's taking it a step too far in my opinion.
That's what I used to love about HAV gameplay back then. Guessing your opponents fits, memorizing how long their hardeners would operate for activating your modules at the exactly the right time. Micromanaging secondary defensive modules was an art form in its own way especially when you learned what you could survive when combining modules.
This is not the same as calculating numbers to figure out these times however. My suggested system would be however, due to the nature of it being similar to the current way, with just enough tools to get a bit of managing with it. In a way, it would expand that art even further. It just wouldn't expand it so much that it's too much to bear for 95% of the game's population (which it would be in most situations, unless HAV's were sniping at stuff, in which it wouldn't matter much, but that's not necessarily fun though, nor does it cover the roles and combat philosophies in the game). |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
Although that is true, Adding caps means you would have to manage all of that together, constantly having to think about what modules you have on, what modules drain more than others, etc. It's taking it a step too far in my opinion.
That's what I used to love about HAV gameplay back then. Guessing your opponents fits, memorizing how long their hardeners would operate for activating your modules at the exactly the right time. Micromanaging secondary defensive modules was an art form in its own way especially when you learned what you could survive when combining modules. Pretty much. I got to a point where I didnt even really look at my icons because I was counting in my head the seconds I had left on my reps, hardeners, DCUs, ect. and plotting paths of escape knowing how long it would take to get there. It was challenging and it was fun. But now? Eh? Flip hardener on, when that one is up flip the other on. That's about all there is to it and a large reason why I really dislike piloting now. Do we need a full on cap system? Maybe not. But the current philosophy is so painful unimaginative and boring, that it's really not fun anymore and applying arbitrary debuffs when a hardener is active not going to fix that underlying issue. It'll still be boring, just less effective.
This is basically my view. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts? I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included. to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing.
I'd rather they just both regen. What's the deal with actually bringing back active reps? When the previous devs removed them, was the ability to bring them back also removed? |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:ccp should take the easy route and leave AV as it is and return the way vehicles were/operated and thier varients including the ones they took away back to chromosome and everyone will be in a state of holy balance......... plus i gte my Surya back that i have longed for.
surya and sagaris....R.I.P untill you hit the factory lines again. If CCP did that AV would have to go back to chrome levels as well.
Which I would be fine with tbh. AV wasn't an issue during Chrome. Rail Sagaris were. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
480
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Mex-0 wrote:I liked it back in the day when you could kill a tank with 3 RE's and a flux. HAVs need slowed down, massively. Primarily it's their acceleration: HAVs go from 0-60 in about a second, which is just waaay too fast. Slow down HAV acceleration and there'll be a marked improvement in V/V and V/AV fights.
I imagine a 20-30% in acceleration nerf would do the trick while making nitro still worthwhile to actually fit. |
DEATH THE KlD
Imperfect - Bastards
758
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 04:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sounds like something making my ads even worse
CEO of Imperfect Bastards and NF -Heimdallr69
Imps>NS>NF
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