|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
   |
Posted - 2015.10.28 02:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:It seems the era of hardener stacking is still upon us - rejoice...
I think vehicles would be more interesting if hardeners had a decent downside. Disable reps/recharge while active... Possibly have shields begin to recharge as soon as hardener is disabled.
People will no longer be able to just activate hardeners to feel safe for a period of time, you must think if you need to tank or need to rep. Stacking multiple hardeners will still be viable, but you will need to plan ahead to make sure you can get to a safe place to regen, instead of just sitting around soaking up damage until it runs out.
Thoughts? Yeah maybe if we had Bastion Modules but never on standard Hardeners. They just need lesser resistance increases so a focus can be of HAV raw HP with small total gains not effective HP due to huge resistance gains.
This guy gets it.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 17:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:It seems the era of hardener stacking is still upon us - rejoice...
I think vehicles would be more interesting if hardeners had a decent downside. Disable reps/recharge while active... Possibly have shields begin to recharge as soon as hardener is disabled.
People will no longer be able to just activate hardeners to feel safe for a period of time, you must think if you need to tank or need to rep. Stacking multiple hardeners will still be viable, but you will need to plan ahead to make sure you can get to a safe place to regen, instead of just sitting around soaking up damage until it runs out.
Thoughts? Yeah maybe if we had Bastion Modules but never on standard Hardeners. They just need lesser resistance increases so a focus can be of HAV raw HP with small total gains not effective HP due to huge resistance gains. This guy gets it. Hardeners are fine but the cooldown and uptimes need some serious tweaking. I've only said this like a million times. 45 seconds on an armor hardener? Really? Try 30 with max skills and see what happens.
Not to mention hardeners increase effective rep rate while active. So you end up with vehicles that are often at 100% or dead. I mean you rarely see a tank that isn't at full hp if its not taking fire.
Av players should be able to whittle down an havs hp over time but that's never going to happen if the HAV can regen to full hp in a matter of seconds all the time.
Buff HP modules and nerf regen mods
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 04:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:Hmm....
Don't like it?
I'll tell you what.
Vehicles + cap.
That's all we need. Nuff said.
Edit: think about it? Everything is different after that. vehicle v vehicle might get more fun (except ads v ads... That's actually so fun and truly is the only balanced thing anyone can do in dust imo)
Nobody can complain about things being so binary, also. AV can get a neut kinda thing... Vehicles can too, or a vamp.. A little more dynamics for us all :D
Plus, i heard if you're running multiple hards your cap just falls apart... Build that cap stable fit boi
Put Cap in, remove uptime/downtime, switch skill to max cap and module usage drain... ORRRR we have to skill each module after awhile...
Idk... But i feel that cap is the cure to all vehicle problems.
..Heck, maybe shield boost might actually work for everyone...
[edited because i realized nuff said, wasn't enough said] I still don't believe that Caps would be well placed in Dust due to the maintaining factor that it has. It would only benefit vehicles that doesn't move much, as moving is a much more involved in Dust than it is in EVE, and requires more attention. Hell, even shooting does as well. EVE is built around managing systems, so it works well there. I wouldn't be opposed to a cloak-like system for all active modules for people to better manage the modules, pulling out the most performance from their modules when they need it, instead of having no control over the timings, but a completely unified system I just don't see working well. It would be interesting to see it actually tested though. This is why I wish we had some form of test server...
To be honest the lack of micromanagement is what has caused tanking to take a downward spiral in both difficulty and fun. There is far less of a skill factor in piloting as there used to be and in my opinion, that is a huge negative.
Back when tankers needed to cycle often 2-3 hardeners and 1-2 reppera constantly, plus other active modules like damage control units...tanking was an art form. Now you can pretty much derp you way to victory because of superior modules.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 23:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
Although that is true, Adding caps means you would have to manage all of that together, constantly having to think about what modules you have on, what modules drain more than others, etc. It's taking it a step too far in my opinion.
That's what I used to love about HAV gameplay back then. Guessing your opponents fits, memorizing how long their hardeners would operate for activating your modules at the exactly the right time. Micromanaging secondary defensive modules was an art form in its own way especially when you learned what you could survive when combining modules.
Pretty much. I got to a point where I didnt even really look at my icons because I was counting in my head the seconds I had left on my reps, hardeners, DCUs, ect. and plotting paths of escape knowing how long it would take to get there. It was challenging and it was fun.
But now? Eh? Flip hardener on, when that one is up flip the other on. That's about all there is to it and a large reason why I really dislike piloting now.
Do we need a full on cap system? Maybe not. But the current philosophy is so painful unimaginative and boring, that it's really not fun anymore and applying arbitrary debuffs when a hardener is active not going to fix that underlying issue. It'll still be boring, just less effective.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 03:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
To be honest the lack of micromanagement is what has caused tanking to take a downward spiral in both difficulty and fun. There is far less of a skill factor in piloting as there used to be and in my opinion, that is a huge negative.
Back when tankers needed to cycle often 2-3 hardeners and 1-2 reppera constantly, plus other active modules like damage control units...tanking was an art form. Now you can pretty much derp you way to victory because of superior modules.
As if you'd know anything about module management.
As if you'd know anything about me.
Spkr alt confirmed?
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 06:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts?
I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 20:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Ok, the base premise is interesting.
Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea."
What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device?
The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners.
Thoughts? I'd love this for most vehicle modules, hardeners and regen mods included. to elaborate, hardeners shut off reps but they are a toggle. you can have a hardened vehicle, or you can repair. One or the otehr, with the hardener toggled on or off being the determining factor of which you are doing.
-_- dude really?
Why are we STILL dancing around these silly ideas instead of going back to a tried and true system of active reps?
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 01:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:My original proposal was a slightly adjusted direct cut of chromosome with a couple tweaks directed at surya supremacy.
It didn't fly.
I'm not going to bang my head on the same wall over and over. So i will keep tossing out ideas until something sticks and works.
Then at the very least push for a slower higher HP model instead of this super repping speed model we currently have. I'd rather have slower reps and a lot more HP to work with.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 13:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
They only do that because rep levels are so high and have zero downtime, thus encouraging stacking. Reps that never turn off behave effectively like a plate because they provide consistent mitigation. That's why active reps are so important.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 00:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Here's a quick idea.
Hardener stops 60-70% damage.
Only one hardener per fit.
Acitve hardener stops armour rep/sheild charge(wichever type you activate.)
Small hav HP buff
It doesn't seem right you can rep while your vehicles nanites are in hardened mode.
It doesn't make sense that you can charge your hav sheilds while all power is being used to harden them. Also a genuinely terrible idea that takes the worst of what we have now and amplifies it to unbearable levels.
Ok first of all, limiting flexibility of fitting is exactly what we're trying to avoid, and is hardly the only option available.
Secondly, let me see if I can explain why this whole "no reps while hardened" doesn't really make sense.
---
Back when we had active reps, this is typically how the battle process would flow.
Hardener Off
Rep Off
Start taking damage, activate hardeners to reduce incoming damage.
Once HP gets low, you are now in a vulnerable state because you are close to death.
Activate reps/boosters to regenerate HP and get out of the vulnerable state.
That being said, reps were really only used once you were in danger of dying.
---
Fast forward to present time. If we go with a model where passive reps are turned off when hardeners are on, and vice versa.
Start taking damage, activate hardeners to reduce incoming damage. (This much is the same)
Once HP gets low, you are now in a vulnerable state because you are close to death.
Here is the dilemma. You have low HP, so you need reps to get it back. But in order to do so, you have to deactivate your hardener, which means you are now going to be taking additional damage, in an attempt to regenerate HP lost from taking damage. So in effect, you're now going from a vulnerable state, to an even more vulnerable state in order to get out of it.
Player response to this will likely be one of two things:
- Pilots will deactivate hardeners and activate reps at a much higher HP so that they can try to ride their unhardened HP in an attempt to run away and recover the raw HP without being shot. This will simply decrease the operational time that vehicles can exist under fire, which would basically be a nerf to vehicles, but do absolutely nothing in terms of making AV/Vehicle interplay more enjoyable.
- Players will completely forgo hardeners and run speedy regen fits in an attempt to make up for the loss of eHP with raw damage negation from passive reps. This will likely end up being a general nerf as well, as the lack of HP means they'll be more readily bursted down. And again, offers nothing in terms of improving the overall enjoyability of the interplay.
I'm sorry but you simply are not going to fix the boring nature of vehicles by pushing numbers around and giving arbitrary limitations to how modules work. At least not with any of the solutions I've seen so far.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
|
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 18:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:
With active reps you can sit there hardened while taking damage, using the reps to allow sustained fire, every time you can shoot you can delay the av from shooting back, repping up your hp and allowing for further sustain, which basically makes it **** easy to stay alive while pooping on everyone with a blaster (large or small.)
You hit the "no reps while hardened" point right on the head, it stops the continuous sustain, you either kill the av or gtfo (or die.) The idea being that you run before you're screwed, not while still being screwed... Flip to reps when you think you're safe.
The key difference being is that sure, you can sit and rep through incoming damage while hardened, but once those reps finished, that was all the HP were you going to get for the next 30-40 seconds, meaning if you took additional damage after that, you were in trouble because you were not going to be getting it back for over half a minute.
Additionally it was part of the meta to attempt to bait the tank into activating his reps early in order to force him to open up that window of opportunity 15 seconds later where he would not have access to HP regeneration. And while it went through phases of being OP and UP, ask almost any HAV pilot and they will tell you that that system was FAR more enjoyable over what we have now.
Make it so pilots have to drop hardeners to rep and I guarantee the player reaction will be a sharp shift towards redline sniping, because the operational time that a pilot can exist under fire will be so short, and the required conditions to regenerate HP will be so strict, that they'll simply avoid taking that risk entirely.
Derpty Derp wrote:
All in all vehicle vs vehicle would become more interesting, because instead of the current 1 tactic meta of "dual harden or die" you have the option to build health and continue that, but without the sustain from repping, or you can strategically position yourself to hit up 1 hardener -> avoid damage and rep -> hit up a second hardener and continue to poop on the enemy.
This would also allow LAV's and Dropships to actually deal damage to tanks again.
Players will still fit a ton of hardeners because they want to be able to stay in the fight longer by resisting as much damage as possible, and then sure, flee to a spot where they can flip off the hardeners and rep up.
Would it be a direct nerf to tanking? Absolutely. Would it change up the fitting meta? Not really. Especially since you can't rep while hardened, you'll want as high of a resistance of possible and avoid high amounts of base HP because you want to be able to get back to full HP as quickly as possible to minimize the amount of time you need to be behind cover in order to recover that HP.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 17:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 18:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam.
Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point.
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 20:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam. Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point. To be fair to Pokey that was how Dust 514 vehicle operation used to function. Knowing module timer cycles, what kinds of repairs or hardeners were being used, having the requisite skills and turrets, and knowing how to best employ your slow turning and drive capabilities was essential. Sweeping in from behind a tank even in a lesser one with a much shoddier fit was a sure fire kill or at least a detrimental blow against the other pilots almost every time. I mean I used to recon the battlefield for minutes before deploying my tank to a specific area calculating effective HP, monitoring gunners and turret types, etc and then trying to predict the surest path to rear armour advantage. I love that. It made tank combat go beyond who was stacking the most hardeners.
Hehe I hear ya. I used to use a Commando with Swarms and a Sniper Rifle. I'd check the HAV's HP with the Sniper Rifle, then ping it a couple times with the swarms to check for regen rates and cycle times on its hardeners and calculate the most likely fit it was running at the time, then deploy an HAV tailored to countering it.
I miss my 2 hardener, 180mm plate, heavy and light rep fit...
"That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
|
|
|
| |
|