DUST Search - Vehicle Hardeners

True Adamance wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Derpty Derp wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell.

This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam.

Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point.

To be fair to Pokey that was how Dust 514 vehicle operation used to function. Knowing module timer cycles, what kinds of repairs or hardeners were being used, having the requisite skills and turrets, and knowing how to best employ your slow turning and drive capabilities was essential.

Sweeping in from behind a tank even in a lesser one with a much shoddier fit was a sure fire kill or at least a detrimental blow against the other pilots almost every time. I mean I used to recon the battlefield for minutes before deploying my tank to a specific area calculating effective HP, monitoring gunners and turret types, etc and then trying to predict the surest path to rear armour advantage.

I love that. It made tank combat go beyond who was stacking the most hardeners.

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Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.11.11 22:19:00 - [61] - Quote DEATH THE KlD wrote: Sounds like something making my ads even worse took the words right out of my mouth. If anything, separate ads modules from tanks modules. tweak tank modules to be effective for tanks and air modules for the ships. light modules will just be a nice middle ground. then you can mess around with tanks and suit them for ground risk v reward and tweak ships for air risk vs reward. e.g. higher active reps being a tank module, and continuous lower reps for the dropships,. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.11.12 05:30:00 - [62] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: light modules will just be a nice middle ground. I'd honestly just flat out replace them with the air modules... Haven't used them on anything in ages... ads/LAV might as well be left unfit rather than waste the money fitting light mods, lol.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.11.12 16:20:00 - [63] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: My original proposal was a slightly adjusted direct cut of chromosome with a couple tweaks directed at surya supremacy. It didn't fly. I'm not going to bang my head on the same wall over and over. So i will keep tossing out ideas until something sticks and works. Then at the very least push for a slower higher HP model instead of this super repping speed model we currently have. I'd rather have slower reps and a lot more HP to work with. And this would no doubt have great benefit to the gunnlogi. Considering there is no such thing as "super repping" where they are concerned. I certainly wouldn't mind having an active shield rep opposed to the silly instant single rep.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.11.12 16:38:00 - [64] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: They only do that because rep levels are so high and have zero downtime, thus encouraging stacking. Reps that never turn off behave effectively like a plate because they provide consistent mitigation. That's why active reps are so important. Totally on point. I just want to note though that the king fit atm is the 1 rep, 1 plate, double hardener setup. It utilizes much of what is available. I'd rather see a shift to active reps, so that they fall into the "waves of opportunity" model that is STILL in effect but has yet to be utilized. From there a reduction to hardener effectiveness and a proportionate increase to plate efficiency. Shift the meta away from hardener stacking and to raw HP with limited reps. I think the main issue here is that AV feel often times like they are literally hitting an indestructible wall. You can shoot and shoot all you want at that maddie, but in the hardener cycle you simply won't make any progress. I think it would be healthy if a single AV user could at least WEAKEN a tank. The main point being that while you won't have an easy time killing one still yet, at least you can make noticeable progress towards that goal. And honestly, I think an HP focused model would do wonders for the gunnlogi. It's still an under performing POS. But with a higher base HP and less resistances AND a slower active rep (over the single burst), they could really make use of their shield regeneration. Right now everything is more or less burst focused, burst reps, burst healing, ect. In the gunnlogis case, base shield regeneration just doesn't have anything burst about it. Then again, many of a gunnlogis issues do stem from the inability to make a fit even halfway comparable to a maddie.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 500	Posted - 2015.11.12 20:18:00 - [65] - Quote DEATH THE KlD wrote: Sounds like something making my ads even worse If only i can like a post more... You sir... Speechless. Forever ADS. Best role.
maybe deadcatz Serris Inc 1	Posted - 2015.11.13 03:29:00 - [66] - Quote Here's a quick idea. Hardener stops 60-70% damage. Only one hardener per fit. Acitve hardener stops armour rep/sheild charge(wichever type you activate.) Small hav HP buff It doesn't seem right you can rep while your vehicles nanites are in hardened mode. It doesn't make sense that you can charge your hav sheilds while all power is being used to harden them. Ha!You can't kill me! I'm already dead!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 21	Posted - 2015.11.13 22:21:00 - [67] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ok, the base premise is interesting. Hardeners shut off reps. On the surface my gut says "Bad idea." What if hardeners were simply a toggle, or had a cooldown regeneration like a cloaking device? The idea becomes something more akin to resource management than passively winning at that point, with agreater return for fitting hit point mods, and less hardeners. Thoughts? Stupid ******* idea. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 21	Posted - 2015.11.13 22:22:00 - [68] - Quote maybe deadcatz wrote: Here's a quick idea. Hardener stops 60-70% damage. Only one hardener per fit. Acitve hardener stops armour rep/sheild charge(wichever type you activate.) Small hav HP buff It doesn't seem right you can rep while your vehicles nanites are in hardened mode. It doesn't make sense that you can charge your hav sheilds while all power is being used to harden them. Also a genuinely terrible idea that takes the worst of what we have now and amplifies it to unbearable levels. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.14 00:38:00 - [69] - Quote True Adamance wrote: maybe deadcatz wrote: Here's a quick idea. Hardener stops 60-70% damage. Only one hardener per fit. Acitve hardener stops armour rep/sheild charge(wichever type you activate.) Small hav HP buff It doesn't seem right you can rep while your vehicles nanites are in hardened mode. It doesn't make sense that you can charge your hav sheilds while all power is being used to harden them. Also a genuinely terrible idea that takes the worst of what we have now and amplifies it to unbearable levels. Ok first of all, limiting flexibility of fitting is exactly what we're trying to avoid, and is hardly the only option available. Secondly, let me see if I can explain why this whole "no reps while hardened" doesn't really make sense. --- Back when we had active reps, this is typically how the battle process would flow. Hardener Off Rep Off Start taking damage, activate hardeners to reduce incoming damage. Once HP gets low, you are now in a vulnerable state because you are close to death. Activate reps/boosters to regenerate HP and get out of the vulnerable state. That being said, reps were really only used once you were in danger of dying. --- Fast forward to present time. If we go with a model where passive reps are turned off when hardeners are on, and vice versa. Start taking damage, activate hardeners to reduce incoming damage. (This much is the same) Once HP gets low, you are now in a vulnerable state because you are close to death. Here is the dilemma. You have low HP, so you need reps to get it back. But in order to do so, you have to deactivate your hardener, which means you are now going to be taking additional damage, in an attempt to regenerate HP lost from taking damage. So in effect, you're now going from a vulnerable state, to an even more vulnerable state in order to get out of it. Player response to this will likely be one of two things: Pilots will deactivate hardeners and activate reps at a much higher HP so that they can try to ride their unhardened HP in an attempt to run away and recover the raw HP without being shot. This will simply decrease the operational time that vehicles can exist under fire, which would basically be a nerf to vehicles, but do absolutely nothing in terms of making AV/Vehicle interplay more enjoyable. Players will completely forgo hardeners and run speedy regen fits in an attempt to make up for the loss of eHP with raw damage negation from passive reps. This will likely end up being a general nerf as well, as the lack of HP means they'll be more readily bursted down. And again, offers nothing in terms of improving the overall enjoyability of the interplay. I'm sorry but you simply are not going to fix the boring nature of vehicles by pushing numbers around and giving arbitrary limitations to how modules work. At least not with any of the solutions I've seen so far. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4	Posted - 2015.11.14 10:12:00 - [70] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Thoughts? **** passive rep Regressed to blueberry level.

Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.11.14 10:14:00 - [71] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Fast forward to present time. If we go with a model where passive reps are turned off when hardeners are on, and vice versa. Start taking damage, activate hardeners to reduce incoming damage. (This much is the same) Once HP gets low, you are now in a vulnerable state because you are close to death. Here is the dilemma. You have low HP, so you need reps to get it back. But in order to do so, you have to deactivate your hardener, which means you are now going to be taking additional damage, in an attempt to regenerate HP lost from taking damage. So in effect, you're now going from a vulnerable state, to an even more vulnerable state in order to get out of it. With active reps you can sit there hardened while taking damage, using the reps to allow sustained fire, every time you can shoot you can delay the av from shooting back, repping up your hp and allowing for further sustain, which basically makes it ** easy to stay alive while pooping on everyone with a blaster (large or small.) You hit the "no reps while hardened" point right on the head, it stops the continuous sustain, you either kill the av or gtfo (or die.) The idea being that you run before you're screwed, not while still being screwed... Flip to reps when you think you're safe. Pokey Dravon wrote:** Players will completely forgo hardeners and run speedy regen fits in an attempt to make up for the loss of eHP with raw damage negation from passive reps. This will likely end up being a general nerf as well, as the lack of HP means they'll be more readily bursted down. And again, offers nothing in terms of improving the overall enjoyability of the interplay. They'll soon stop once they realise that means getting instapopped by a breach forge/av grenade/...Everything... The logical move would be to build more armour and less reps. No more sitting around repping back to full health and speeding away, the armour will slow them down, helping to alleviate the speedy tank problem. All in all vehicle vs vehicle would become more interesting, because instead of the current 1 tactic meta of "dual harden or die" you have the option to build health and continue that, but without the sustain from repping, or you can strategically position yourself to hit up 1 hardener -> avoid damage and rep -> hit up a second hardener and continue to poop on the enemy. This would also allow LAV's and Dropships to actually deal damage to tanks again.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.14 18:39:00 - [72] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: With active reps you can sit there hardened while taking damage, using the reps to allow sustained fire, every time you can shoot you can delay the av from shooting back, repping up your hp and allowing for further sustain, which basically makes it ** easy to stay alive while pooping on everyone with a blaster (large or small.) You hit the "no reps while hardened" point right on the head, it stops the continuous sustain, you either kill the av or gtfo (or die.) The idea being that you run before you're screwed, not while still being screwed... Flip to reps when you think you're safe. The key difference being is that sure, you can sit and rep through incoming damage while hardened, but once those reps finished, that was all the HP were you going to get for the next 30-40 seconds, meaning if you took additional damage after that, you were in trouble because you were not going to be getting it back for over half a minute. Additionally it was part of the meta to attempt to bait the tank into activating his reps early in order to force him to open up that window of opportunity 15 seconds later where he would not have access to HP regeneration. And while it went through phases of being OP and UP, ask almost any HAV pilot and they will tell you that that system was FAR more enjoyable over what we have now. Make it so pilots have to drop hardeners to rep and I guarantee the player reaction will be a sharp shift towards redline sniping, because the operational time that a pilot can exist under fire will be so short, and the required conditions to regenerate HP will be so strict, that they'll simply avoid taking that risk entirely. Derpty Derp wrote:** All in all vehicle vs vehicle would become more interesting, because instead of the current 1 tactic meta of "dual harden or die" you have the option to build health and continue that, but without the sustain from repping, or you can strategically position yourself to hit up 1 hardener -> avoid damage and rep -> hit up a second hardener and continue to poop on the enemy. This would also allow LAV's and Dropships to actually deal damage to tanks again. Players will still fit a ton of hardeners because they want to be able to stay in the fight longer by resisting as much damage as possible, and then sure, flee to a spot where they can flip off the hardeners and rep up. Would it be a direct nerf to tanking? Absolutely. Would it change up the fitting meta? Not really. Especially since you can't rep while hardened, you'll want as high of a resistance of possible and avoid high amounts of base HP because you want to be able to get back to full HP as quickly as possible to minimize the amount of time you need to be behind cover in order to recover that HP. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.11.15 14:56:00 - [73] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: ask almost any HAV pilot and they will tell you that that system was FAR more enjoyable over what we have now. A turd on a stick would be more enjoyable than current tanking. If we go back to active reps, tank-tards will cry "it's too hard, we need higher reps" then it will happen and we'll have it even worse than now, it truly will be immortal tanks, for however long the active reps last, which with the main problem of the whole game (tiny **** maps) will be a useless downside, because everyone will be back safely in the redzone with time to spare, followed by repping at the supply depo (if there is one.) Pokey Dravon wrote: Make it so pilots have to drop hardeners to rep and I guarantee the player reaction will be a sharp shift towards redline sniping, because the player base is ** and no one has any balls. This wouldn't be a shift at all... the majority of tankers will be found in the redzone, some will stay there the whole match (and get jihaad jeeped if I see them) while the rest will stare at the map waiting for that opportunity to pop out with all their modules active, take a kill, then hide to look at the map again (or spin the view looking for red dots to pop up... Glitch has been in the game too long! as with all of them.) Honestly large turrets should have their range dropped to that of infantry weapons, that's the only thing that would stop redzoning... Feel free to shout "but the blaster will destroy everything at that range" because it does nothing but farm infantry, at any range the rail with heat sync *** on everything.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.15 17:36:00 - [74] - Quote You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.11.15 17:40:00 - [75] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.15 18:13:00 - [76] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam. Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 21	Posted - 2015.11.15 20:01:00 - [77] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam. Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point. To be fair to Pokey that was how Dust 514 vehicle operation used to function. Knowing module timer cycles, what kinds of repairs or hardeners were being used, having the requisite skills and turrets, and knowing how to best employ your slow turning and drive capabilities was essential. Sweeping in from behind a tank even in a lesser one with a much shoddier fit was a sure fire kill or at least a detrimental blow against the other pilots almost every time. I mean I used to recon the battlefield for minutes before deploying my tank to a specific area calculating effective HP, monitoring gunners and turret types, etc and then trying to predict the surest path to rear armour advantage. I love that. It made tank combat go beyond who was stacking the most hardeners. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.15 20:43:00 - [78] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. This isn't a cv bro, no need to oversell yourself... I quite clearly mean get into a fight and spam modules, the same as we do now, but with 1 more to spam. Well there is more to piloting than just the moment of engagement but I think I've explained my point completely at this point. To be fair to Pokey that was how Dust 514 vehicle operation used to function. Knowing module timer cycles, what kinds of repairs or hardeners were being used, having the requisite skills and turrets, and knowing how to best employ your slow turning and drive capabilities was essential. Sweeping in from behind a tank even in a lesser one with a much shoddier fit was a sure fire kill or at least a detrimental blow against the other pilots almost every time. I mean I used to recon the battlefield for minutes before deploying my tank to a specific area calculating effective HP, monitoring gunners and turret types, etc and then trying to predict the surest path to rear armour advantage. I love that. It made tank combat go beyond who was stacking the most hardeners. Hehe I hear ya. I used to use a Commando with Swarms and a Sniper Rifle. I'd check the HAV's HP with the Sniper Rifle, then ping it a couple times with the swarms to check for regen rates and cycle times on its hardeners and calculate the most likely fit it was running at the time, then deploy an HAV tailored to countering it. I miss my 2 hardener, 180mm plate, heavy and light rep fit... "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4	Posted - 2015.11.15 23:41:00 - [79] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You mean pilots will actually have to have micromanagement skills to handle all of the modules? Sounds like a positive change in my book, any monkey can handle the current system just fine, which is why it is boring as hell. I did that 3 years ago in replication with a madrugar with 8 active modules and eventually it got nerfed, modules taken away, skills taken away, turetts taken away, everything taken away. Game advances 3 years and it can only get worse when people are aksing for things 3 years ago. CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''


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