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catsrule
D3ATH CARD RUST415
55
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Posted - 2015.10.21 18:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
But my 5000+ officer weapons ......
Why do we forget the things we want to remember but remember the things we want to forget ~ Unknown
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BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
365
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Posted - 2015.10.21 19:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: You want a level playing field, so make one.
Dont-be-a-D1CK wrote: - I'd support a full ISK+Asset+SP reset
Like that. I could totally get on board with this. Might be the only thing that kept me playing actually.
Sadly the fact that it has not been done is contributing to the death of the game. Past mistakes and even the current ISK fountain that is PC has destroyed the game's economy. The NPE and pretty much any merc under 50mill SPs (you know the guys that would still spend money on the game) suffer from the ineptitude of the past from CCP. A reset would also separate the guys who actually love the game from those who simply love to ruin others' experience, as the **** bags who can't handle a level playing field will move on. |
Press Attache
The Office of The Attorney General
285
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Posted - 2015.10.21 20:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: You want a level playing field, so make one.
Dont-be-a-D1CK wrote: - I'd support a full ISK+Asset+SP reset
Like that. I could totally get on board with this. Might be the only thing that kept me playing actually. Sadly the fact that it has not been done is contributing to the death of the game. Past mistakes and even the current ISK fountain that is PC has destroyed the game's economy. The NPE and pretty much any merc under 50mill SPs (you know the guys that would still spend money on the game) suffer from the ineptitude of the past from CCP. A reset would also separate the guys who actually love the game from those who simply love to ruin others' experience, as the **** bags who can't handle a level playing field will move on.
So basically you want rolling resets to keep the playing field level.
Should work wonders for people thinking about investing that crybaby scrubs are going to get their progress rest every 6 months or so to prevent people from skilling faster.
Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
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Shaun Iwairo
DUST University Ivy League
241
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Posted - 2015.10.21 21:01:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ghost -
SP wasn't reset after beta. Everyone coming in from open were behind. The flood of players coming in after beta made up the majority of the playerbase. Yes there were still some beta vets with their SP intact but they were the exception. Compare that population to the population a new player faces today. Which one do you think has the highest SP differential?
You know that amazing 750k SP cap? Used to be smaller as well. 400k IIRC. What new player is going to be able to accumulate 750K SP a week in their first few weeks of playing? How many WPs is that? How many WPs can new players be reasonably expected to earn per match? All the raising of the SP cap did was gave the vets that are earning the very high WPs/match even more SP. I'd doubt very much if any new players today are hitting the old SP cap, let alone the new one.
TAR and Laser rifles were more broken than anything that used to be in the game. Laser Rifle squads used to be called "The Fingers of Death". OK I don't see how that impacts new players specifically. If a gun is broken it's broken for everyone? I guess you could argue that the new players couldn't use it? What's worse, an OP weapon that only requires lvl 1 to use or a whole range of OP weapons that require Proficiency to use?
Death taxies existed. LAV's that were almost impossible to kill and could kill you if they barely even TOUCHED YOU. You would have matches with one or two of these people driving around playing bumper cars with infantry. Again, doesn't really impact new players specifically.
BPO's were nowhere near as proliferate. That is a fair point. APEX suits are a godsend to new players that can afford them.
Compared to what we had in the past, you guys are so much more blessed. I can see why you'd mistake me for a new player because I tend to defend them a fair bit, but I was here for the closed beta.
Lets not forget to mention free clone packs for PC so long as you're active. The fact you are raising PC mechanics as an advantage for new players baffles me. I don't even know what to say. New players don't PC?
Now look at the advantages vets have over new players today: + damage from the warbarge Two whole new tiers of more powerful weapons Two new vet-exclusive sources of ISK that puts them well above the earning potential of pubs alone Most importantly, a playerbase that is more skewed towards high SP high ISK players than it has ever been.
Something is killing new player retention.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.10.21 21:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:
You kill the supply of an item, you kill the trade of that item.
Actually, no. you won't. As rarity increases, the price and value of the item follows suit. there will always be a market for officer gear by people who are willing to pay for it, and there have always been players willing to pay for it.
Experimental weapons are being retained, maintaining a level slightly above proto without falling into the Officer realm of "deliberately overpowered."
Trade them.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.10.21 23:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
You kill the supply of an item, you kill the trade of that item.
Actually, no. you won't. As rarity increases, the price and value of the item follows suit. there will always be a market for officer gear by people who are willing to pay for it, and there have always been players willing to pay for it. Experimental weapons are being retained, maintaining a level slightly above proto without falling into the Officer realm of "deliberately overpowered." Trade them. Yes you will.
Rarity is not increasing because of natural market forces, rarity is increasing by killing the supply without doing anything to change the existing stockpiles. It like if all the worlds gold ceased to be sold tomorrow and you told me, dont worry there is still silver. Investors with stockpiles of gold make a killing off of it, and a market saturated in silver makes silver worthless.
Your idea of the officer fix for trade makes that trade market ominated by the few who can afford to stockpile them and financially lock out the majority of the player base who can't.
You are still skirting around the issue of "officer gear is still plentiful in the hands of a few players so lets make it rare for everyone else but them." Breaking why not go the full monty and make it rare for eveyone and reimburse players in ISK?
If you want to make officer gear rare then MAKE IT RARE.
Otherwise if you're saying "we should make it rare to produce but players should keep thier massive stockpiles to stomp with," then you whole idea of finding balance is flawed. I.e "too much officer in pubs, Breaking should stop generating officer but tesfa should keep 1,000 officer items" just hands all financial and stomping incentive to me. It like saying no proro shall be used in pubs except for every one who has level 5 already. Everybody else, is meta locked.
I repeat, sieze everything to make it fair. Don't take B.S. half measures to pretend to do so.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
3
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Posted - 2015.10.22 09:59:00 -
[67] - Quote
Shaun Iwairo wrote:The funniest thing is that there are vets around today that actually believe it's easier to be a new player now than it has ever been. As though somehow the playerbase could have been slanted towards veteran players even more than it is now.
I can I burst their bubble on that one? It flipping well isn't!
CPM 1&2 Member
CEO of DUST University
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.10.22 18:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tesfa, there is a vast gulf of difference between killing officer trade marketts and killing individual players' ability to trade lots of officer items.
New Eden operates on a loss economy. Period.
Destruction creates rarity. Hoarding creates rarity.
Just because the easy source of isk faucet has been fixed does not mean that the trade thereof is dead. And your demand to remove all of the items people paid their ISK for is hilarious.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.10.22 19:24:00 -
[69] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Shaun Iwairo wrote:The funniest thing is that there are vets around today that actually believe it's easier to be a new player now than it has ever been. As though somehow the playerbase could have been slanted towards veteran players even more than it is now. I can I burst their bubble on that one? It flipping well isn't! I'm with Kevall on this one. Chromosome was the best time ever to be a newbro. Warlords is the worst time ever to be a newbro. What's changed? The present TTK gap between vets and noobs is more to blame -- in my opinion -- than the wealth gap, the experience gap, bad Scotty, stompsquads, or even officer weapons.
There has always been learning curves, stompsquads, lopsided matches, and wealth/experience disparity. What's changed is the likelihood that a newbro who outplays a vet will win. The odds have shifted -- almost entirely on account of power creep -- to favor the outplayed vet.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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DiablosMajora
341
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Posted - 2015.10.22 20:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
You kill the supply of an item, you kill the trade of that item.
Actually, no. you won't. As rarity increases, the price and value of the item follows suit. there will always be a market for officer gear by people who are willing to pay for it, and there have always been players willing to pay for it. Experimental weapons are being retained, maintaining a level slightly above proto without falling into the Officer realm of "deliberately overpowered." Trade them. Yes you will. Rarity is not increasing because of natural market forces, rarity is increasing by killing the supply without doing anything to change the existing stockpiles. It like if all the worlds gold ceased to be sold tomorrow and you told me, dont worry there is still silver. Investors with stockpiles of gold make a killing off of it, and a market saturated in silver makes silver worthless. Your idea of the officer fix for trade makes that trade market ominated by the few who can afford to stockpile them and financially lock out the majority of the player base who can't. You are still skirting around the issue of "officer gear is still plentiful in the hands of a few players so lets make it rare for everyone else but them." Breaking why not go the full monty and make it rare for eveyone and reimburse players in ISK? If you want to make officer gear rare then MAKE IT RARE. Otherwise if you're saying "we should make it rare to produce but players should keep thier massive stockpiles to stomp with," then you whole idea of finding balance is flawed. I.e "too much officer in pubs, Breaking should stop generating officer but tesfa should keep 1,000 officer items" just hands all financial and stomping incentive to me. It like saying no proto shall be used in pubs except for every one who has level 5 already. Everybody else, is meta locked. I repeat, sieze everything to make it fair. Don't take B.S. half measures to pretend to do so. please stop talking about economics and trade like you understand it, you really don't
Prepare your angus
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.10.22 21:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote: (snip) This is the biggest difference between Chromosome NPE and Warlords NPE.
There's a few sides to this, but the NPE needs to be a much higher priority.
I personally am of the opinion that new players need to not be used as filler for matches with people runnong 30-100 million SP
Facwar? No sympathy.
Planetary conquest? Even less sympathy.
But pubs with new players do not need to be thrown up against me and my 1300 -1600 HP fatsuits or my obnoxious marathon running assault fits. Newbie tank drivers most assuredly do not need to be in a match with me stroking my IAFG AVpeen. I may be only "decent" as an overall infantry player but a buncha newbies in sicas, somas,G-1 and C-1 HAVs don't have a prayer because I'm actually lretty good at destroying vehicles.
But in any case we are deeply off topic.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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GRIM GEAR
539
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Posted - 2015.10.22 21:57:00 -
[72] - Quote
The old weekly skill point cap was just under 200k I can't remember exactly it was either 194k or 196k.
Cup of tea anyone?
I came here to mingle can you hear that jingle that would be me lingle.
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Reallusion GrimSleeper
Need Permission to Die LLC
147
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Posted - 2015.10.22 22:28:00 -
[73] - Quote
The only fair way to remove all 'farmed' office weapons would be to track down every individual sale of those weapons and refund the amount that they were sold for. I know many of us are not going to stand for buying a bunch of weapons for 400k each just to turn around and have them wiped out and replaced with 1/6th of what we paid for them. That's B.S.
click here for a FREE Staff Recruit Assault Rifle BPO + BOOSTER
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.10.22 22:41:00 -
[74] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: (snip) This is the biggest difference between Chromosome NPE and Warlords NPE. There's a few sides to this, but the NPE needs to be a much higher priority. I personally am of the opinion that new players need to not be used as filler for matches with people runnong 30-100 million SP Facwar? No sympathy. Planetary conquest? Even less sympathy. But pubs with new players do not need to be thrown up against me and my 1300 -1600 HP fatsuits or my obnoxious marathon running assault fits. Newbie tank drivers most assuredly do not need to be in a match with me stroking my IAFG AVpeen. I may be only "decent" as an overall infantry player but a buncha newbies in sicas, somas,G-1 and C-1 HAVs don't have a prayer because I'm actually lretty good at destroying vehicles. But in any case we are deeply off topic. I guess you guys could find a way to better separate the playerbase. But if you reigned in power creep, you probably wouldn't have to. As a noob in Chromosome, I never minded going up against the best of the best. If you singled them out and caught them from behind, you had a decent chance of taking 'em out (no matter how crappy your gear or how much more HP they had than you). It was an entirely different experience from today's NPE.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.10.23 00:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Chromosome ttk was also maddeningly short and the duvolle reigned supreme. I don't remember chromosome as any period of greater fairness except in the case of AV/V interactions with the sole exception of the Surya.
Newbs facing proto was just as violently one sided as it is today.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.10.23 01:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:1. Chromosome ttk was also maddeningly short and
2. the duvolle reigned supreme. I don't remember chromosome as any period of greater fairness except in the case of AV/V interactions with the sole exception of the Surya.
3. Newbs facing proto was just as violently one sided as it is today. 1. Chromosome TTK was shorter which, in my experience, served to equalize the playing field. Vet outplays or outsmarts newbro; newbro dies a violent death. Newbro outplays or outsmarts vet; vet dies a violent death.
2. Sure, the Chromosome AR was good, but it didn't "reign supreme"; that came later in Uprising. Think back to the fish bowl and the Chromosome Laser Rifle; the weapon dominated ranged engagements with its insta-melt death touch. And who can forget the kickball clunk of the Chromosome Shotgun? As I recall, these, HMGs and Locus Grenades reigned in close quarters. ARs -- like everything else -- killed more quickly in Chromosome, but no one weapon dominated the killfeed like we'd observe later in Uprising.
3. That wasn't my experience at all. If it had been, I wouldn't have stuck around. Not calling you a liar; it is very possible that we were running different things and had different experiences. About a week and a half into my DUST career, I lured a merc named "Zar Du'Kar" (or something like that) around rough terrain and promptly ended his pursuit with a short-range shotgun blast to the dome. I didn't top the leaderboards or anything that match (think I went 7/8), but the lure apparently impressed the merc, who turned out to be a vet in a competitive corp. He sent a very polite good game mail and asked if I was LFC. I read everything I could find on the web about "Pro Hic Immortalis" and that was it; I was hooked on DUST and have been ever since. Fast forward to today. I can't tell you the last time I sent a newbro a good game mail; most newbros I come across tend to hang back out of harm's way; and for good reason. The newbros who push get slaughtered.
TL;DR: If newbros are going to run with vets, they deserve the mechanics and tools necessary to actually stand a chance against those vets; the only way (I can think of) to get back to more level playingfield is by narrowing the TTK gap. If, on the otherhand, newbros are going to be separated from vets, then so be it. I do wish it could be different though. Recruitment, new player retention rates, queue times, social aspects, training, mentor/apprentice relationships, etc. All of these stand to suffer.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Press Attache
The Office of The Attorney General
296
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Posted - 2015.10.23 01:33:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Shaun Iwairo wrote:The funniest thing is that there are vets around today that actually believe it's easier to be a new player now than it has ever been. As though somehow the playerbase could have been slanted towards veteran players even more than it is now. I can I burst their bubble on that one? It flipping well isn't!
Lower weekly cap, no missions, no apex suits.
Vehicles in ambush, no vehicle cap.
Please tell me again how much easier it was to be a new player before.
Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
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Shaun Iwairo
DUST University Ivy League
288
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Posted - 2015.10.23 02:00:00 -
[78] - Quote
We just disagree on the impact that a vet-stacked playerbase has on a newbro. The SP cap, well I'm not sure how many newbros are even earning enough WPs to take advantage of that. And yeah, APEX is nice for them (as I already said ) but there's been plenty of other things brought in that tip the balance in favour of vets such as two whole new tiers of high SP weapons and a longer-than-ever TTK. Missions have, in the scheme of things, pretty small rewards. The ones that do have OK rewards are pretty unrealistic for a newbro to achieve.
The biggest thing I think is the composition of the playerbase. The majority of the people left playing have been Dust'ing for a looooong time. While we had a fair chance of facing a bunch of other noobs back in the day, it's statistically very unlikely now. That makes the learning experience very difficult, they're gonna get wrecked when the make the wrong move and they're gonna get wrecked when they make the right move.
e. sorry to continue the derail
Something is killing new player retention.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.10.23 02:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
Shaun Iwairo wrote:... and they're gonna get wrecked when they make the right move.
This is something I think we can and should improve upon.
If newbros and protobears are to play together, newbros should have the tools needed to kill protobears and should be amply rewarded when they manage to do so. Dropsuit Tiericide, normalized weapon profiles, and buffing locus grenade damage were three steps in the right direction. Removing permascan from play, improving upon pub pay and narrowing the TTK gap would be three more.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.10.23 03:02:00 -
[80] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Shaun Iwairo wrote:... and they're gonna get wrecked when they make the right move.
This is something I think we can and should improve upon. If newbros and protobears are to play together, newbros should have the tools needed to kill protobears and should be amply rewarded when they manage to do so.
I think newbears and protobears SHOULD play together. But by choice rather than simply being dropped into the shark tank. New players who squad with vets should absolutely be run in the vets' normal game mode. But random fresh-faced newbie should not be randomly dropped into a match with you and me.
I know I sure as sh*t don't look at the target data to see if my opponent is rocking militia crap or proto gear. I just freaking blast them and move on. In an environment like that, I should be fighting guys like you and Tesfa as a first choice. the only reason a new player should be in my gunsights is if the ballsy little bastard joined a squad with someone like you and was enjoying the coordination and protection of a good squad.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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