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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
497
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:@Stefan: I also think the turning changes are a step in the right direction, they let you artificially increase the distance Swarms have to travel, which helps you actually leave the fight.
I do think Swarms need the variants looked at: having the base SL function like a 'Breach' with high damage but longish lock-on times (for HAV work) and the Assault having lower damage (probably a little lower than the current SL) but with longer lock range, faster lock-on and more shots in the clip.
That would go a long way towards solving SL balance by making them actually balance-capable, instead of OP vs one and UP vs the other. I'm receptive to the idea of separating SLs into long and short range versions. However I advise against separating them too far for several reasons. Most importantly, once we get into a territory where the two variants are separated into "anti-DS SL" and "anti-HAV SL" the utility of each individual SL will be greatly reduced. It's a good idea to have one SL that does long range supressive damage to both DS and HAV and a short range SL that can kill HAVs and forces DS to immediately flee out of range. But the long range SL needs to be able to deter an HAV that is rolling up to your face and the short range SL needs to be able to keep a DS away. Otherwise people won't use either of them unless they perform so well at their respective jobs that it'll be an unfair fight for the HAV or DS pilots. would love to have these thoughts spelled out in actual before and after numbers per each swarm variant. Question for theorycrafting...can missile speed and/or flight range be adjusted between variants? or just lock range? consider everything to be adjustable. I just need to create a different projectile type if we would do a faster one. It is also possible to do one missile per swarm, if that's something interesting.
Here we have the conversation tree that started it.
So let's get a discussion of the swarm launcher stats going...with any/all variables apparently up for debate/change for different variations.
How do you feel about:
- The Job that Vanilla Swarm Launchers should be doing, and how well they are doing that job?
- How Swarms are doing vs Dropships
- How Swarms are doing vs ADS
- How Swarms are doing vs HAVs
- How Swarms are doing vs LAVs? (Lol)
- Does anyone actually use the Assault Variant(s) (Or ISK 'Specialist' variant), and/or be adversely affected by their current functionality being changed?
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should a General Purpose Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS? And should a variant in this style exist?
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should an Anti-Aircraft Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS/Lock-Range? And should a variant in this style exist?
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should an Anti-Tank Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS/Lock-Range? And should a variant in this style exist?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
497
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've done some intitial theorycrafting on my own.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Radiant Pancake3
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
.... I've seen more assault swarm launchers in the kill feed lately... It weirds me out...
Learned the ways of N4g from Alcina's mom
Deemed the most Kinkiest Corp Mate.
Min Loyalist.
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ReViRaX
20
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
/YODA TALK OFF
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:How do you feel about:
- The Job that Vanilla Swarm Launchers should be doing, and how well they are doing that job?
- How Swarms are doing vs Dropships Quit fine. Swarms vs regular dropships are fine IMO. I fly quite regularly, and even militia dropships can survive 2-3 rounds before going down without mods. Besides, killing in a dropship takes 2 people.
- How Swarms are doing vs ADS Still bad. The maps are half the reason (one-socket maps with NO COVER). I can barely tell the difference with swarms, some I have encountered STILL travel around buildings. Why can't my missiles do that?!?!? Invisible swarms SMH....don't even get me started on redline railtanks.
- How Swarms are doing vs HAVs HAV's (madrugars) are fine. Lai Dais can still kill tanks very well. Why aren't specialist AV grenades costing more CPU/PG and you can carry 3?? Gunnlogi's vs swarms are fine. Swarms barely dent an 8k shield tank but that's all shield tanks are good for. They suck right now.
- How Swarms are doing vs LAVs? (Lol) vs Saga-II's with the built-in hardener, quite good! But if you want to use an LAV like an assault vehicle, they are really weak. HOW can a sentinel (infantry suit) have MORE ARMOUR THAN A CAR?!?!?
- Does anyone actually use the Assault Variant(s) (Or ISK 'Specialist' variant), and/or be adversely affected by their current functionality being changed? nope. I tried them with their faster lock-on time but they have a slower firing rate so....yeah
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should a General Purpose Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS? And should a variant in this style exist? variants should exist for different vehicles. Breach should be slow and cannot move along the y-axis...so it should be for HAV's. Assault should be the ONLY variant should ADS and it should be able to travel along y-axis. As for general variants, they should be able to travel along y-axis BUT have twice the lock-on time of breach (HAV) and assault (ADS/dropship) variants. Keep speed the same for general & assault SL but half the speed for the breach.
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should an Anti-Aircraft Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS/Lock-Range? And should a variant in this style exist? Lots of damage, normal firing rate, slow travel speed. see above
- What initial speed/acceleration/top speed should an Anti-Tank Swarm Launcher have? and what Damage/DPS/Lock-Range? And should a variant in this style exist? Little damage, normal firing rate, fast travel speed. see above
Yoda in da-skies
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
211
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Posted - 2015.10.13 02:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
I want to be able to at least have a single shot dumbfire variant so that the caldari com has at least an option to have the versatility of a plasma cannon type thing.
Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
I bring the light.
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Celus Ivara
DUST University
Ivy League
421
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Posted - 2015.10.13 03:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
One thing I'd like to throw into the mix is the idea that SL variants should be identifiable from each other for the pilot on the receiving end.
A different number of fired missiles (as Rattati suggested) would help.
Another tool could be different colors.
Imagine flying to a point when suddenly a brilliant-blue, single missile pops off a roof and arcs toward you.
Knowing your opponent let's you make interesting choices; otherwise you'd be flailing in the dark.
#PortDust514
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IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
799
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Posted - 2015.10.13 03:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
I ran swarms on my logi fits to keep armor (vehicles) off my squad but dropped them because they just suck.
The only time you can reliably drop armor is if you catch them off guard and before they take assault position.
I have respect for the DS pilots and tankers but it is impossible to take them down with swarms as a utility weapon.
You wont ever balance swarms with DS on the field. Anything designed for a four thousand hp tank will shred a DS.
Just remove them and make something better.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 09:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
27
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Posted - 2015.10.13 09:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday.
cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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FireBirdStar
Dead Man's Game
53
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Posted - 2015.10.13 09:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
Give Havs bonus like SL resistance (little bit only) something like that . To balance them
Born Gallente, Pure Caldari
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
983
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
lower the damage of swarms instead of making it harder to hit things, that way it isn't dealing 2000 dmg per volley against armour. The damage plus how quickly they lock and fire is an issue, so either lower damage or increase lock times, I would prefer a damage reduction.
Wanna play eve?
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Lost Apollo
Moose Knuckle Pros
118
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
I use the assault variant. Locking on to multiple targets is fun. Run out of ammo pretty quick. Swarms aren't really in a bad place. However, unless you have two swarmers, taking down anything more than a LAV is quite difficult. Most pilots are smart enough to move once the first volly hits.
Maybe a Breach Swarm Launcher could be done. One less in the clip in exchange for higher damage per shot?
My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless.
State "Kampo" Logistics
Born - April 1, 2013
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Sanchez Rivera
Wolf Pack Special Forces
Rise Of Legion.
79
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
Is It A Bad Idea To Make Specific Swarm Launchers To Specific Vehicles...?
Like For Example:
ADS Swarm Launcher:
Will Have More Efficiency On ADS (100%-110%)
Less Efficient On Any Other Vehicles(75%)
Tank Swarm Launchers:
Will Be More Efficient On Tanks (100%-110%)
Less Efficient On Any Other Vehicle(75%)
Numbers Could Be Different, But 2 Different Vehicle Types In Battle Would Be A Challenge For One AV User (As Always)
And LAVs Would Feel A Bit Buffed
Good Day People!
I Want To Have All The BPOs :3
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DiablosMajora
335
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Posted - 2015.10.13 11:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Is it possible to have variants that only lock onto one type of vehicle (DS/ADS, HAV, LAV)?
Prepare your angus
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
7
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
You could start by reverting every change since 1.7 and work with the players from there since most of the community seems to identify that as the peak of vehicles before they were turned into passive aggressive sheet metal.
I only deal in absolutes
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
500
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
I think it's that and Vice Versa..."how can you have a weapon that is good at killing tanks, that won't just obliterate a Dropship immediately, and how can you have a weapon good at killing dropships that an HAV operator has a chance to escape from?"
That's why I'm in favor of a general purpose one that is OK vs both, but doesn't excel and than 2 specialty variants for each specific purpose.
@Stefan Stahl: I'll go ahead and add your idea onto the spreadsheet.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
13
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff.
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
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Nirwanda Vaughns
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
I just want Gallente Swarms. i mean ffs just reskin a PLC and use the swarm animation/mechanic and have them higher damage vs shields.
When it comes to Vehicles and AV we'll never have true balance until we get shield based AV more valid than the standard PLC, when 80% of AV is vs armour you simply can't get true balance. same with a gallente forge, reskin/colour a standard forge, make damage +10% shields -10% armour shorter range perhaps -50m, standard charge time but slightly higher damage than breach FG.
as for SL varients, make the assault swarms longer lock range, perhaps back upto 300m but bring damage down and it should be balanced
Please fix my C-II hitpoints!! Jesus and I love you :)
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
500
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff.
The assault swarm launcher is a swarm launcher that can lock onto two targets at once...for increased fitting and isk cost, and no increase in any other statistic...using its advantage eats your magazine too quickly, so it's only really useful vs unfit LAV spam as-is xD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
12
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:I just want Gallente Swarms. i mean ffs just reskin a PLC and use the swarm animation/mechanic and have them higher damage vs shields.
When it comes to Vehicles and AV we'll never have true balance until we get shield based AV more valid than the standard PLC, when 80% of AV is vs armour you simply can't get true balance. same with a gallente forge, reskin/colour a standard forge, make damage +10% shields -10% armour shorter range perhaps -50m, standard charge time but slightly higher damage than breach FG. From a lore perspective, Gallente do not utilize missiles as a primary weapon system. The "Gallente swarm" is the PLC; a hybrid - blaster AV weapon.
If we were to have an anti-shield AV weapon it would probably come from the Amarr. Or, considering that one of the advantages of missiles in Eve is they can load a missile of any damage type, perhaps we can just keep the swarms Caldari and say it has been loaded with an EM warhead.
"I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
500
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:I just want Gallente Swarms. i mean ffs just reskin a PLC and use the swarm animation/mechanic and have them higher damage vs shields.
When it comes to Vehicles and AV we'll never have true balance until we get shield based AV more valid than the standard PLC, when 80% of AV is vs armour you simply can't get true balance. same with a gallente forge, reskin/colour a standard forge, make damage +10% shields -10% armour shorter range perhaps -50m, standard charge time but slightly higher damage than breach FG.
as for SL varients, make the assault swarms longer lock range, perhaps back upto 300m but bring damage down and it should be balanced
While I agree with the sentiment here...considering our problem(s) with V/AV right now are primarily being expressed on Armor Vehicles...I mean...you realize that, until FoxFour, Gunnlogis have been out of luck for some time...still going to wait for an oppurtunity to try them out again now that they have a bit of a buff...but I don't think it'll help them much where they really need it.
But...in regards to Anti-Shield AV...Why not a swarm launcher made by Khanid Innovations, and give it a +20/-20 profile...call it Mjolnir Swarm Launchers...
Although...in Eve one line of Gallente ships did have launcher hardpoints...but that was abandoned a few years ago (I think they where the Roden Shipyards line of ships).
Although...the lack of AV Laser would make someone very unhappy xD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 13:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:I think it's that and Vice Versa..."how can you have a weapon that is good at killing tanks, that won't just obliterate a Dropship immediately, and how can you have a weapon good at killing dropships that an HAV operator has a chance to escape from?"
That's why I'm in favor of a general purpose one that is OK vs both, but doesn't excel and than 2 specialty variants for each specific purpose.
@Stefan Stahl: I'll go ahead and add your idea onto the spreadsheet. Fully agreed.
CCP Rattati wrote:cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs" Easy enough to solve. In the "damage-per-volley versus lock-on-duration versus clipsize" design space you can dial in the size of the alpha-strike that can be delivered to an escaping DS and the sustainable DPS on a static target HAV.
Here are some logical sanity-checks for a potential solution:
- A short range SL must be able to scare off a DS further than 150 meters, otherwise a DS with a gunner can rain missiles on the swarmer with impunity. The launched missile must travel to 200-250 meters at least, otherwise the DS can just dip out of range to recover and be back 10 seconds later.
- A long range SL must be able to break the reps on a hardened dual-rep Madrugar, otherwise it isn't an AV weapon. That's 425 DPS to armor minimum. Better add some margin, otherwise the HAV won't be impressed.
Some more general arguments:
Right now, in any situation that doesn't involve buildings, the resolution of a fight between a DS and SL is determined only by the distance between the two. If distance is x then y volleys connect before the DS escapes, delivering z damage within w seconds and the DS either pops or it doesn't. That means I can design a SL that destroys any DS of a given ehp if caught within an arbitrary distance to the SL. In fact I came up with a couple possible variants during a train ride yesterday. However I fail to see the gameplay here. Neither the SL operator nor the DS pilot are doing anything interesting - they're both not enjoying their time, which is terrible gameplay.
I know that isn't what you asked for, but I'd like to put some effort into creating a more interesting SL-DS interplay before creating such variants. Tweaking turn-rate and missile speed as well as implementing directional swarm launching (I'm going to keep banging that drum) creates a much more interesting gameplay where we can involve both the DS pilot and the SL operator in more interesting activities.
However the design is much more complicated - more analysis to come...
By the way, if an update is underway and not yet feature-complete: Beside directional swarm launching (#directionalswarmlaunching - trending now!), we could very much use a profile-parameter for all vehicles that is hotfixable and is used to determine the speed at which a SL (or other guided weapon) locks on. I imagine it's fairly simple to implement and gives us a very easy to use design parameter.
Something of the sort: Lock-on-duration = base-value(from weapon) * skill-modifier(from character) * profile(from lock-on-target)
Profile is a float with a default of 1.0 and ranges from more than 0 to less than Inf.
An HAV may have a profile of 1.0, a DS of 1.05, an LAV of 1.1, something like that.
It's not an elegant solution, but it'd be good to have it should the need arise. If technical reasons stop it from happening, that's no big problem. |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Four Horseman Tactical Agency
2
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Posted - 2015.10.13 13:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:lower the damage of swarms instead of making it harder to hit things, that way it isn't dealing 2000 dmg per volley against armour. The damage plus how quickly they lock and fire is an issue, so either lower damage or increase lock times, I would prefer a damage reduction.
Or like some have suggested , give assault swarms the ability to be better against dropships so to speak because they can target two different vehicles at one time , allow vanilla to be vanilla and the go to for all vehicles but not specialized in taking out any specific vehicle target and allow specialist swarms to be more efficient against HAV's given the longer lock on times and just differentiate the swarms with their missile count when in use also ,
Vanilla given the usual 4 .
Assault given 5 .
Specialist given 5 or 6 swarms per volley .
If you also want to change the projectile / missile color as well you could do so to help the swarms stand out as well .
Most of the issues of this game are easy to deal with given a consolidated effort and brainstorming instead of finger pointing and bias that normally happens .
We need to learn to come together so that we can fix what can be and begin to enjoy the game for what it's worth instead of letting issues that plague it linger because of in-house bickering .
Edit : Maybe give the vanilla the least amount of lock on time but also , the least amount of swarms in a clip .
Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .
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Lost Apollo
Moose Knuckle Pros
118
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff.
Agreed!
My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless.
State "Kampo" Logistics
Born - April 1, 2013
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
13
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff. The assault swarm launcher is a swarm launcher that can lock onto two targets at once...for increased fitting and isk cost, and no increase in any other statistic...using its advantage eats your magazine too quickly, so it's only really useful vs unfit LAV spam as-is xD
Exactly.
We've had recent issues in PC vs corps that try to hold high ground by spamming armor fit transport dropships nonstop. Two forgers can't handle that many dropships at once.
I'd like to see swarms have some power in that scenario, able to quickly take down multiple targets at once. Perhaps full damage applied to multiple targets, but greatly increased lock on time?
Or perhaps limited so that it can only lock when multiple targets are present?
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
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catsrule
D3ATH CARD
RUST415
24
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff. The assault swarm launcher is a swarm launcher that can lock onto two targets at once...for increased fitting and isk cost, and no increase in any other statistic...using its advantage eats your magazine too quickly, so it's only really useful vs unfit LAV spam as-is xD Exactly. We've had recent issues in PC vs corps that try to hold high ground by spamming armor fit transport dropships nonstop. Two forgers can't handle that many dropships at once. I'd like to see swarms have some power in that scenario, able to quickly take down multiple targets at once. Perhaps full damage applied to multiple targets, but greatly increased lock on time? Or perhaps limited so that it can only lock when multiple targets are present?
able to take down multiple targets at once? are you serious? CCP nerfed swarms for a reason, adding this will make the swarms worse than what they already were before. also, in PC an alldin can absolutely obliterate anything it encounters anyway, if those two forgers cant take down a DS spam than they just have bad aim. |
shanatak
Prima Gallicus
32
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Posted - 2015.10.13 15:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
You should not forget in the game players are not alone. If hav or ads starting to kill too much people , sure around 2 or 3 infantry will come with swarms . That s make the sky not a good place. Many times I ve seen between 3 or 6 players focused on tank or ads with swarms and just destroy them in few seconds.
Killing an ads or tank should be a team work . Buff the swarms and hav or ads will become a joke. |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
13
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Posted - 2015.10.13 15:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
catsrule wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:I think everyone forgets about the assault swarm launcher.
That thing could really use a buff. The assault swarm launcher is a swarm launcher that can lock onto two targets at once...for increased fitting and isk cost, and no increase in any other statistic...using its advantage eats your magazine too quickly, so it's only really useful vs unfit LAV spam as-is xD Exactly. We've had recent issues in PC vs corps that try to hold high ground by spamming armor fit transport dropships nonstop. Two forgers can't handle that many dropships at once. I'd like to see swarms have some power in that scenario, able to quickly take down multiple targets at once. Perhaps full damage applied to multiple targets, but greatly increased lock on time? Or perhaps limited so that it can only lock when multiple targets are present? able to take down multiple targets at once? are you serious? CCP nerfed swarms for a reason, adding this will make the swarms worse than what they already were before. also, in PC an alldin can absolutely obliterate anything it encounters anyway, if those two forgers cant take down a DS spam than they just have bad aim.
Or it could be the 4x Gorgons with nothing but resist and tank all heading to the same tower at once.
You just don't have the DPS to take them all down.
You can easily fit a Grimsnes with 2x Basic Hardeners, 1x Basic 120mm plate, an AB, and basic missile launcher for almost no SP investment. Whole thing costs less than 76k.
1200 shield, 4400 armor with dual hardeners. Hardeners give it roughly 50% resist, increasing its armor HP just shy of 2x. Shield HP is 1200 with resist, with roughly 8500 armor to boot.
Lets assume 2x Aldins forges with 3x damage mods. Per shot, they deal 1460 to shields and 2056 to armor. If they sweet spot it, they deal 120% damage, totaling to 1752 and 2467. Now, one shot wipes shields, ignore em. You still have to burn through 8500 armor. Lets be real generous and say that the extra shot did 500 armor damage. You have to burn through 8000 armor. Second forger hits, dealing 2500. Both hit for another 5000. Two volleys later, that thing is JUST hanging on. Lets be REALLY generous and say it dies.
Okay, so two volleys per forger, with perfect accuracy in the sweet spot. Tall order, but lets say they're exceptional forgers. What about charge time and travel time? Ah hell, lets assume perfect charges and zero travel time. Lets just line those dropships up on the ground and let the forgers have a field day. Well, even then it will take ~3 seconds to charge and fire.
So, it takes 2 forgers with officer forges and 3 damage mods 12 seconds to destroy 4 dropships like this. More than enough time right?
Remember that Afterburner? Even with plates they move at 120m/s.
And the forge has a limited range of 400m.
So uh, tell me again about how they're terrible shots and can't deal with the threat.
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
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jett it
Ancient Exiles.
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
447
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Posted - 2015.10.13 15:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:I agree with Celus Ivara, SL variants must be identifiable to the vehicle pilot that is being attacked by the sound of the impact alone. Swarms still don't always render.
Yesterday I did some theorycrafting and noticed that variants aren't really necessary.
If we gave our current SL 6 shots per clip DS or ADS wouldn't notice. They leave lock on range before the fourth shot is in the air anyway - and if it launches, it won't catch up. An HAV however will have to endure 6 volleys with no pause for reload in between, which is a serious (17% for non-commandos) buff to DPS.
To me, that sounds like a very good proposition. No additional damage to DS, big buff to DPS against HAVs. No extra variants, no hassle. Only one value has to be modified. Could be deployed by Monday. cool. But the complaints are, I think, a bit in the other direction, "how can I swarm kill Dropships without it being OP against HAVs"
I gotta say rattati you are right on that.
Theres a weapon for everything.
I hear so much about swarms and dropships.
Try this pull out that ishokune assault forge gun on the derpships and use your swarms or plc's on tanks.
I guarantee you will kill 5x more dropships with a forge compared to a swarm.
o7
jettGaming - Youtube
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JIMvc2
KILL-EM-QUICK
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 16:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Give the tanks the HP they had before 1.7 uprising. Its embarrassing how today's tanks are weak as paper.
That nerf was completely no just no.
When are we getting the Enforcer tank!!??
Judge my muscle content then I'll judge you by your Half Marathon time. Never underestimate runners - "Jim"
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