In the Shield versus Armor debate, one primary attribute that must be considered when comparing the two tanking styles is that Armor has base values whereas Shield Modules primarily work on percentages. This means that whenever a player fits a Complex Armor Repairer they receive a 9.38hp/s repair rate to their armor no matter what suit they are running. Comparatively, if a player were to fit a Complex Shield Recharger, they would receive a dynamically changing value based on whatever their suit's base shield recharge is.

A Caldari Scout receives a benefit of 25.88hp/s Shield Recharge Rate from the module, whereas a Minmatar Commando would receive a benefit of 9.32hp/s. The dynamically changing values are due solely to the way shield stats on suits are calculated, based on the suit's role (Assault, Commando, etc). This can make balancing difficult, as a change to a module that would make one suit viable may not work on another suit.

Let me get this straight, you want to change shield mods to a static number to buff shield suits?

So, a Shield Recharger oates of giving 35% bonus, it would give, I dunno, a 30hp/s bonus? And along with this, you want to give all suits the same regen?


I can see how it helps shield suits, but you're also saying that it'll make armor suits benefit less from them. However, if that have the same regen, wouldn't they benefit just as much from the same module as a shield suit?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding everything due to being tired?

I'm trying to understand why the focus is on buffing shield regen lol. Shield regen right now is sooo not the issue.

What about min scouts that depend entirely on shields as well?

I don't see the point in this change and I don't see how this would make shield suits more viable. If we want to talk balance, let's balance the mods first. Why is it that a ferroscale plate requires less cpu and pg and yields more hp than a shield extender?

The biggest issue with shield tanking is not the shield suits itself but the counter is too effective. An amarr or galente assault can don 700hp of armor (with no movement penalty) and stack double and 3x damage mods. Now, apply that to a scrambler rifle that already does 20% dmg to shields. If a caldari assault wants to keep up with the damage output, they lose their shield tank. They then may have to put on armor plates which defeats the purpose of shield tanking.

Solution: Allow damage mods in the high and low slots or introduce ROF mods in the low slots.

I'm trying to understand why the focus is on buffing shield regen lol. Shield regen right now is sooo not the issue.

How about bringing shield in line with armor by changing armor modules so they also are percentage based, instead of doing changes to shields?

Doesn't it seem wrong to anyone that an armor plate on a scout gives you the same ammount of hp that a plate on a heavy frame?

But I know, people would cry that their enemies have to shoot them "only for 2 seconds!"...

I'm really tired with king HP, and now you want to buff shields instead of nerfing armor. I'm a sad panda :P

Delay.

Shield regen rates mean jack all if you can't survive long enough for it to start.

HP is another issue. But my philosophy there is: the closer you come to armor level HP, the more you must accept armor-like rep rates.

My proposal was to make caldari shield delays 1/3 mirroring the calsent. Minmatar would be 3/5.

My other proposal would be adding the extender variants me and the sh*tpost twins cobbled together.

First up let's analyze what happened when Armor was buffed. Armor plates had about 85 base HP at proto in beta. They also had 10% move penalty.

The movement penalty got shanked first.

Later around 1.4 ish armor plate HP got buffed to what it is now. We got ferros and reactives. Reps increased by just shy of 100% overall.

But at the same time dropsuit shields ate a nerf. Both on the extender penalty and if I recall correctly, the dropsuit delays were tweaked to be longer.

So we got the heavy buff to one and a rather substantial nerf to the other simultaneously.

So buffing shields to match armor is unlikely to result in caldari master race.

Let's see what you can cook up.

I think that shield modules should also be set on static values. This would lead to PG/CPU adjustments being needed to hurt dual tanking ability but it would work out better in the long run.

Keeping them % based means that every suit has to have its shield numbers rebalanced around any new mods leaving a big mess that just goes in a circle.

I don't think that shield mods would need to be changed to flat amounts (although yes, you are right that it would probably make things easier to balance) provided that there is a standardized reasoning behind base shield regen rates. As for the PG/CPU adjustments, those I think would need to happen Armor Side, Currently Armor Modules have fairly significantly lower fitting costs compared to shield modules. Solving potential issues with dual tanking should probably come in the form of finally re-examining armor module fitting costs...but that's an issue for another thread.

Fitting costs and benefits provided overall need to be looked at for tanking modules...as do penalties to ensure that they are actually doing the job they are intended to. Ok guess I have another spreadsheet to work on xD...and got to work on my existing Armor/Shield spreadsheet to be readable...

I don't think we need to -reduce- the TTK any more than has been done with the recent advent of balance changes (weapon buffs) in unison with warbarge damage applications and officer gear proliferation. Nerfing armor would only serve to further reduce the TTK and as such the standpoint of buffing shields to competitive levels is the optimal solution.

If we look at Caldari suits, the only problem is the commando.

The sentinel has the same recharge rate as the assault (30 hp/s), and shorter delays. Whereas the commando has only 20hp/s and longer delays.

I suggest buffing commando recharge and delay (all races) to the level of assaults. It's silly that the Cal sent recharges at 30 whereas the commando is only at 20.

I don't support changing other suits. There's no reason at all to nerf scout shield regen.

To help shield tanking in general I suggest buffing shield rechargers and energisers. Or nerfing armour hp mods a bit.

(P.S. Off topic, but nerfing range extenders was more about preventing logis abusing passive scans.)

30hp/s on Heavy Frames, 35hp/s on Medium, 40hp/s on Light, starting value.

Shield deplted delay's balanced equally among them, Commando=Sentinel, Assault=Logi, so Commando and Assault get a buff by having Shield stats closer to the others. Shield Modules - Regulators, Rechargers could use a buff imo, but that may not be needed if you buff base stats ^^

Random note: I was surprised to see Cal Heavies given 400+armour, and a pure Shield version would be interesting

Probably the latter.

Shield Recharger would still give the 45% bonus (complex). The modules wouldn't change. However, the suits themselves would. Delving a bit further into this, if we look at say, the Minmatar Line-up we see this:

Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Scout: 40hp/s ----- 4s ----- 5s
Assault: 25hp/s ----- 6s ----- 8s
Logistics: 20hp/s ----- 5s ----- 6s
Commando: 18hp/s ----- 6s ----- 10s
Sentinel: 20hp/s ----- 4s ----- 6s

It is all over the place but seems to gravitate toward a rough area in different places. (The Caldari are worse, with Sentinels, Commandos, and Scouts showing massive discrepancies in the value differences, btw). Under this change we would see all of the Minmatar suits reflecting the same values, meaning that some would be buffed and others would be nerfed, but they would all reflect the same benefits and negations from shield modules, with primary differences based on their base shield HP and fitting slots, accordingly (much like Armor).

So if we were to say, just go with the average of all of these values (again, just as an example), it'd look like this:

Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Minmatar: 25hp/s ----- 5s ----- 7s

So, all of them would receive a buff in recharge except for the Scout. All but the Sentinel and Scout would receive a buff, or stay the same, with Recharge Delay. Depleted delay the Assault and Commando get a buff. This standardization then allows us to balance the percentage based modules much easier and we can adjust the suits in other areas. The Minmatar Scout may receive additional base shield HP to compensate for the drop in recharge capability, for example, or adjust the entire racial shield standardization to 30hp/s, 4s, and 6s, respectively.

What changes is that if this were to happen with the above values, you would see Shield Rechargers offering a much greater benefit to (almost) the entire race's line-up of suits as opposed to dynamically benefiting Scouts the most and Commandos the least. Likewise, Shield Regulators which would also have dynamic values based on the role would apply neatly to the entire racial line. Shield Extender penalties would apply similarly as well.

Ultimately this would lessen confusion, add more diversity to fittings, provide an easier balancing spectrum, and result in more time spent working on other things. It would however mean some pretty crazy changes that might be wonky in the short-term that would invariably need to be adjusted.

I think the proper way to begin balancing shields vs. armor would be to port Dust to PC/PS4.

Do we have any news on that?

Preface and Explanation:


To bring resolution to this, a proposal was made in the fashion of Racial Based Shield Stats. Meaning that instead of role based shield stat values, each suit would have the same recharge and delay values based on their racial make and build. A Shield Recharger on a Caldari Scout would offer the same benefit as a Shield Recharger on a Caldari Sentinel, Commando, Assault, etc. Theoretically, these values would reflect racial combat philosophy, with Caldari being the primary shield tankers and Amarr being the least viable with it.

This is one of many proposals on how to increase the viability of Shield Tanking and should not be considered the sole and only proposal or plan. This thread is designed to discuss the vices and virtues of this proposal and intentionally does not supply numbers as they are subject for debate. Thus, this thread exists for that very purpose.

Please post below, your feedback and concerns in relation to the proposal of Racial Based Shield Stats, as well as your ideal base numbers and questions.

Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well?

Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception?

Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them?

Give them the same recharge stats as the Caldari Scout.

Alright, let me re-iterate:

If they followed along with the Minmatar racial shield stats, meaning they'd have the same recharge and delays as every other Minmatar suit, what would you do differently to help balance them out. Borrowing from another race doesn't change the fact that they'd be an exception to the rule.

Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception?

Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them?

Still do not understand the focus on Regen. It's not the issue with shields.

Preface and Explanation:


To bring resolution to this, a proposal was made in the fashion of Racial Based Shield Stats. Meaning that instead of role based shield stat values, each suit would have the same recharge and delay values based on their racial make and build. A Shield Recharger on a Caldari Scout would offer the same benefit as a Shield Recharger on a Caldari Sentinel, Commando, Assault, etc. Theoretically, these values would reflect racial combat philosophy, with Caldari being the primary shield tankers and Amarr being the least viable with it.

This is one of many proposals on how to increase the viability of Shield Tanking and should not be considered the sole and only proposal or plan. This thread is designed to discuss the vices and virtues of this proposal and intentionally does not supply numbers as they are subject for debate. Thus, this thread exists for that very purpose.

Please post below, your feedback and concerns in relation to the proposal of Racial Based Shield Stats, as well as your ideal base numbers and questions.