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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.09.14 00:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Preface and Explanation:
Quote:In the Shield versus Armor debate, one primary attribute that must be considered when comparing the two tanking styles is that Armor has base values whereas Shield Modules primarily work on percentages. This means that whenever a player fits a Complex Armor Repairer they receive a 9.38hp/s repair rate to their armor no matter what suit they are running. Comparatively, if a player were to fit a Complex Shield Recharger, they would receive a dynamically changing value based on whatever their suit's base shield recharge is.
A Caldari Scout receives a benefit of 25.88hp/s Shield Recharge Rate from the module, whereas a Minmatar Commando would receive a benefit of 9.32hp/s. The dynamically changing values are due solely to the way shield stats on suits are calculated, based on the suit's role (Assault, Commando, etc). This can make balancing difficult, as a change to a module that would make one suit viable may not work on another suit.
To bring resolution to this, a proposal was made in the fashion of Racial Based Shield Stats. Meaning that instead of role based shield stat values, each suit would have the same recharge and delay values based on their racial make and build. A Shield Recharger on a Caldari Scout would offer the same benefit as a Shield Recharger on a Caldari Sentinel, Commando, Assault, etc. Theoretically, these values would reflect racial combat philosophy, with Caldari being the primary shield tankers and Amarr being the least viable with it.
This is one of many proposals on how to increase the viability of Shield Tanking and should not be considered the sole and only proposal or plan. This thread is designed to discuss the vices and virtues of this proposal and intentionally does not supply numbers as they are subject for debate. Thus, this thread exists for that very purpose.
Please post below, your feedback and concerns in relation to the proposal of Racial Based Shield Stats, as well as your ideal base numbers and questions.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 01:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Let me get this straight, you want to change shield mods to a static number to buff shield suits?
So, a Shield Recharger oates of giving 35% bonus, it would give, I dunno, a 30hp/s bonus? And along with this, you want to give all suits the same regen?
I can see how it helps shield suits, but you're also saying that it'll make armor suits benefit less from them. However, if that have the same regen, wouldn't they benefit just as much from the same module as a shield suit?
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding everything due to being tired?
Probably the latter.
Shield Recharger would still give the 45% bonus (complex). The modules wouldn't change. However, the suits themselves would. Delving a bit further into this, if we look at say, the Minmatar Line-up we see this:
Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Scout: 40hp/s ----- 4s ----- 5s
Assault: 25hp/s ----- 6s ----- 8s
Logistics: 20hp/s ----- 5s ----- 6s
Commando: 18hp/s ----- 6s ----- 10s
Sentinel: 20hp/s ----- 4s ----- 6s
It is all over the place but seems to gravitate toward a rough area in different places. (The Caldari are worse, with Sentinels, Commandos, and Scouts showing massive discrepancies in the value differences, btw). Under this change we would see all of the Minmatar suits reflecting the same values, meaning that some would be buffed and others would be nerfed, but they would all reflect the same benefits and negations from shield modules, with primary differences based on their base shield HP and fitting slots, accordingly (much like Armor).
So if we were to say, just go with the average of all of these values (again, just as an example), it'd look like this:
Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Minmatar: 25hp/s ----- 5s ----- 7s
So, all of them would receive a buff in recharge except for the Scout. All but the Sentinel and Scout would receive a buff, or stay the same, with Recharge Delay. Depleted delay the Assault and Commando get a buff. This standardization then allows us to balance the percentage based modules much easier and we can adjust the suits in other areas. The Minmatar Scout may receive additional base shield HP to compensate for the drop in recharge capability, for example, or adjust the entire racial shield standardization to 30hp/s, 4s, and 6s, respectively.
What changes is that if this were to happen with the above values, you would see Shield Rechargers offering a much greater benefit to (almost) the entire race's line-up of suits as opposed to dynamically benefiting Scouts the most and Commandos the least. Likewise, Shield Regulators which would also have dynamic values based on the role would apply neatly to the entire racial line. Shield Extender penalties would apply similarly as well.
Ultimately this would lessen confusion, add more diversity to fittings, provide an easier balancing spectrum, and result in more time spent working on other things. It would however mean some pretty crazy changes that might be wonky in the short-term that would invariably need to be adjusted.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 07:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thread is becoming derailed a bit. I'll re-iterate that this thread is seeking feedback in relation to the topic at hand, not ways to nerf armor, introducing damage/rof mods, etc. Stay on topic, please.
Now, as far as the overall stats go, again, it is up for debate. We can standardize shield delays and leave recharge rates out of the mix or vice versa.Trying to balance the suits in relation to the modules has proven to be difficult as opposed to balancing modules in relation to suits. The latter cannot happen when this inconsistent dynamic of modules affecting suits differently is being applied much in the same way that nerfing Range Amplifiers to combat Caldari Scout passive scan abuse negatively impacted... Well, everything else.
To address the issue brought up with Scouts needing high regen, I'm curious as to why that is. Your HP is so low that you'll often die before making use of the regen anyway and Scouts' natural low profile and EWAR focus should definitely help to reduce the likeliness of incoming damage as it is.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 07:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
dzizur wrote:How about bringing shield in line with armor by changing armor modules so they also are percentage based, instead of doing changes to shields?
Doesn't it seem wrong to anyone that an armor plate on a scout gives you the same ammount of hp that a plate on a heavy frame?
But I know, people would cry that their enemies have to shoot them "only for 2 seconds!"...
I'm really tired with king HP, and now you want to buff shields instead of nerfing armor. I'm a sad panda :P
I don't think we need to -reduce- the TTK any more than has been done with the recent advent of balance changes (weapon buffs) in unison with warbarge damage applications and officer gear proliferation. Nerfing armor would only serve to further reduce the TTK and as such the standpoint of buffing shields to competitive levels is the optimal solution.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 07:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Few things that I spitballed previously were completely removing shield delays except for Depleted Delay, meaning your shields could recharge through damage. The drawback was that hit detection isn't favorable sometimes and it would be a hard-nerf to some less effective weaponry that couldn't powerhouse through shields fast enough (see non-headshot sniper rifles).
Initial math proved... Interesting, as you had about the same TTK on paper with a Caldari Sentinel running all energizers as a Caldari Sentinel running all Extenders. Would come down to preference and, of course, how well your enemy could hit you. Long story short though that proposal is a far extreme.
Some other things for consideration (though not in this thread, please, I'm just throwing them out there so we can get it out of our systems and move on) were offloading some of the armor that Caldari have and putting it in the Shield HP pool and vice versa with Gallente. Removal of penalties toward Shield Extenders. Removal of penalties to Energizers and offering up increased fitting cost (PG) instead. Buffing generally all shield modules... etc.
But none of these really address any core issues. They're band-aids. Can play with numbers until the end of days but if the root problem isn't addressed, in this case a really weirdly designed shield stat system, it'll fester. Just my opinion though, take it for what you will.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 17:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can you guys read or did we skip that class in school?
Armor tank. No nerf talk in thread. Thread not 'bout armor. Never fix shield by nerf armor. Ooga booga.
Christ, I hate to lose it here but you guys really can't focus. If you disagree because you feel that it would be a negative impact than elaborate, specifically, as to why. Don't just say "shields are fine except for-" explain the reasons why you feel that they are fine when so many other players are advocating shield buffs.
And for the love of all that is holy, don't say shields are fine and then say nerf armor. This is not the thread for that.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 20:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well?
Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception?
Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.14 21:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? Give them the same recharge stats as the Caldari Scout.
Alright, let me re-iterate:
If they followed along with the Minmatar racial shield stats, meaning they'd have the same recharge and delays as every other Minmatar suit, what would you do differently to help balance them out. Borrowing from another race doesn't change the fact that they'd be an exception to the rule.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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