DUST Search - [CPM Feedback] Racial Shield Stats

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Joel II X wrote:

Let me get this straight, you want to change shield mods to a static number to buff shield suits?

So, a Shield Recharger oates of giving 35% bonus, it would give, I dunno, a 30hp/s bonus? And along with this, you want to give all suits the same regen?

I can see how it helps shield suits, but you're also saying that it'll make armor suits benefit less from them. However, if that have the same regen, wouldn't they benefit just as much from the same module as a shield suit?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding everything due to being tired?

Probably the latter.

Shield Recharger would still give the 45% bonus (complex). The modules wouldn't change. However, the suits themselves would. Delving a bit further into this, if we look at say, the Minmatar Line-up we see this:

Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Scout: 40hp/s ----- 4s ----- 5s
Assault: 25hp/s ----- 6s ----- 8s
Logistics: 20hp/s ----- 5s ----- 6s
Commando: 18hp/s ----- 6s ----- 10s
Sentinel: 20hp/s ----- 4s ----- 6s

It is all over the place but seems to gravitate toward a rough area in different places. (The Caldari are worse, with Sentinels, Commandos, and Scouts showing massive discrepancies in the value differences, btw). Under this change we would see all of the Minmatar suits reflecting the same values, meaning that some would be buffed and others would be nerfed, but they would all reflect the same benefits and negations from shield modules, with primary differences based on their base shield HP and fitting slots, accordingly (much like Armor).

So if we were to say, just go with the average of all of these values (again, just as an example), it'd look like this:

Recharge Delay Depleted delay
Minmatar: 25hp/s ----- 5s ----- 7s

So, all of them would receive a buff in recharge except for the Scout. All but the Sentinel and Scout would receive a buff, or stay the same, with Recharge Delay. Depleted delay the Assault and Commando get a buff. This standardization then allows us to balance the percentage based modules much easier and we can adjust the suits in other areas. The Minmatar Scout may receive additional base shield HP to compensate for the drop in recharge capability, for example, or adjust the entire racial shield standardization to 30hp/s, 4s, and 6s, respectively.

What changes is that if this were to happen with the above values, you would see Shield Rechargers offering a much greater benefit to (almost) the entire race's line-up of suits as opposed to dynamically benefiting Scouts the most and Commandos the least. Likewise, Shield Regulators which would also have dynamic values based on the role would apply neatly to the entire racial line. Shield Extender penalties would apply similarly as well.

Ultimately this would lessen confusion, add more diversity to fittings, provide an easier balancing spectrum, and result in more time spent working on other things. It would however mean some pretty crazy changes that might be wonky in the short-term that would invariably need to be adjusted.

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Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 8	Posted - 2015.09.14 14:17:00 - [31] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Joel II X wrote: Let me get this straight, you want to change shield mods to a static number to buff shield suits? So, a Shield Recharger oates of giving 35% bonus, it would give, I dunno, a 30hp/s bonus? And along with this, you want to give all suits the same regen? I can see how it helps shield suits, but you're also saying that it'll make armor suits benefit less from them. However, if that have the same regen, wouldn't they benefit just as much from the same module as a shield suit? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding everything due to being tired? Probably the latter. Shield Recharger would still give the 45% bonus (complex). The modules wouldn't change. However, the suits themselves would. Delving a bit further into this, if we look at say, the Minmatar Line-up we see this: Recharge Delay Depleted delay Scout: 40hp/s ----- 4s ----- 5s Assault: 25hp/s ----- 6s ----- 8s Logistics: 20hp/s ----- 5s ----- 6s Commando: 18hp/s ----- 6s ----- 10s Sentinel: 20hp/s ----- 4s ----- 6s It is all over the place but seems to gravitate toward a rough area in different places. (The Caldari are worse, with Sentinels, Commandos, and Scouts showing massive discrepancies in the value differences, btw). Under this change we would see all of the Minmatar suits reflecting the same values, meaning that some would be buffed and others would be nerfed, but they would all reflect the same benefits and negations from shield modules, with primary differences based on their base shield HP and fitting slots, accordingly (much like Armor). So if we were to say, just go with the average of all of these values (again, just as an example), it'd look like this: Recharge Delay Depleted delay Minmatar: 25hp/s ----- 5s ----- 7s So, all of them would receive a buff in recharge except for the Scout. All but the Sentinel and Scout would receive a buff, or stay the same, with Recharge Delay. Depleted delay the Assault and Commando get a buff. This standardization then allows us to balance the percentage based modules much easier and we can adjust the suits in other areas. The Minmatar Scout may receive additional base shield HP to compensate for the drop in recharge capability, for example, or adjust the entire racial shield standardization to 30hp/s, 4s, and 6s, respectively. What changes is that if this were to happen with the above values, you would see Shield Rechargers offering a much greater benefit to (almost) the entire race's line-up of suits as opposed to dynamically benefiting Scouts the most and Commandos the least. Likewise, Shield Regulators which would also have dynamic values based on the role would apply neatly to the entire racial line. Shield Extender penalties would apply similarly as well. Ultimately this would lessen confusion, add more diversity to fittings, provide an easier balancing spectrum, and result in more time spent working on other things. It would however mean some pretty crazy changes that might be wonky in the short-term that would invariably need to be adjusted. Oh! Okay, I get it now! Yes, this is a pretty neat idea! Here's a +1. I see this giving the Caldari Commando a great help, which is awesome and needed. Only problem I see is that, as you've said, it'll be wonky at first. If we take the Caldari Scout and commando, they'll be the same in terms of available regen (except for the scout having an extra high, allowing for more regen, but meh), however, the one thing that makes the current Caldari Sentinel is the one second depleted. Would you just give that to all frames, or take it away from the Sentinel? If you do take it away, it'll only have a single low slot, giving it the lowest depleted recharge. Aside from that, I think it's a good idea. On a side note, do you think doing the same with armor repair would be good as well, or not? *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
haerr Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2015.09.14 14:56:00 - [32] - Quote Vice: doesn't normalise shield module value between roles because different roles have different amounts of high/low slots. It wouldn't be a bad starting point but adding a correction value based on the total number of slots available to each role seems like step two.
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 25	Posted - 2015.09.14 15:01:00 - [33] - Quote I think the proper way to begin balancing shields vs. armor would be to port Dust to PC/PS4. Do we have any news on that?
Tickle Me Emo Y0UTHINASIA 0	Posted - 2015.09.14 15:12:00 - [34] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: I think the proper way to begin balancing shields vs. armor would be to port Dust to PC/PS4. Do we have any news on that? Dust 514 is not receiving a port. Stop asking.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.14 17:01:00 - [35] - Quote Can you guys read or did we skip that class in school? Armor tank. No nerf talk in thread. Thread not 'bout armor. Never fix shield by nerf armor. Ooga booga. Christ, I hate to lose it here but you guys really can't focus. If you disagree because you feel that it would be a negative impact than elaborate, specifically, as to why. Don't just say "shields are fine except for-" explain the reasons why you feel that they are fine when so many other players are advocating shield buffs. And for the love of all that is holy, don't say shields are fine and then say nerf armor. This is not the thread for that. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Avallo Kantor 864	Posted - 2015.09.14 18:39:00 - [36] - Quote On the topic of shield regeneration: I believe this was talked about in the past, but I do not recall what the response was. I believe Shield Regeneration should work a bit more dynamically than the current model in DUST is. Currently we only have 2 regen values, one for non-depleted shields, and one for fully depleted shields. I would suggest tweaking this to have on "base" recharge time that as Aeon was suggesting is racially consistent. Then have the actual recharge time be some % modifier based on current shield values. There are two ways to do this, one is taking from the EVE model of shield recharge, and the other a more straightforward system. The EVE system, from my memory, has recharge rate in something of a bellcurve. It is highest in the 30 - 50% range, and less effective as it gets farther from that "sweet spot". The other more straightforward approach would be to have the % difference between max and current be the modifier. For example, given a shield recharge time of 10 seconds: With the EVE style we would only have it be 20 - 30% (so 2 - 3 seconds) while in that "sweet spot" and it increases to 100% the further it gets away. (So at 0% and 100% shield HP it would be 10 seconds) With the Straightforward approach it would be simple. If at 90% hp your recharge time is only 10% (So 1 second delay) while at 0 shields it would take those full 10 seconds. With either approach we get closer to what I believe is the main goal of shield tanking systems: skirmish, cover-based warfare. These more dynamic styles of recharge encourage Shield Tankers to focus on short bursts of fire followed by ducking into cover to let their shields recharge at a quickened rate. With the straightforward approach especially those that can engage for a few bursts and then pop into cover would enjoy low delay rates which would strengthen their tanking ability without directly impacting how much alpha damage they can take if they were to be ambushed, sniped, or caught out in the open. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 408	Posted - 2015.09.14 19:48:00 - [37] - Quote My initial thoughts on numbers that could be used for Racial Delay, role based rates are: Delays (Race: Delay/DRD) Caldari: 3/1 Minmatar: 3/3 Gallente: 5/5 Amarr: 7/5 Recharge Rates (Role: Rate) Sentinel/Heavy: 30 HP/s Commando: 35 HP/s Medium/Assault: 40 HP/s Logistics: 45 HP/s Light/Scout: 50 HP/s I'll start trying to make a spreadsheet to try to demonstrate how these would work...but I think regeneration is only part of the equation that needs looked at for shields to become a real contender for viability. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Kierkegaard Soren Eridani Light Horse Battalion 922	Posted - 2015.09.14 20:08:00 - [38] - Quote 1) As noted by OP, balancing the two tanking types so that both are viable but different in approach will be impossible until A) the modules themselves are made to buff EITHER percentages OR numerically (and for the sake of simplicity I favour the latter) and B) regen and delay rates are standardised to a much more acceptable level. I like the idea of balancing by race rather than balancing by suit, but doing that might bring an implicit nerf to the CalSent if, say, you bring regen and delay rates for the cal scout, logi and assault UP to acceptable levels, but not to where the CalSent is currently at because clearly that would be OP. So you'd have to make and exception for the CalSent and let it keep its current regen and delay values OR nerf it to bring it line with the rest of the Cal line up and then, as a counter-balance, introduce a shield-based rep tool. 2) It should also be noted that shield tankers have to fot way more modules to run a viable, tough tank than their armour-wearing counterparts; as noted in a previous post, Delay is currently the crippling issue for shields (amongst a whole bunch of other issues) and in order to address that low-modules that require a hefty amount of CPU to fit must be used. Armour tankers (and I am one of them) get way too much bang for their buck in terms of fitting costs and module efficiency; its perfectly acceptable to run two reps and a plate outside of PC I think; no shield tanker would survive any firefight if they dedicated a measly three slots, high or low, in the same fashion. SO: Get rid of regulators, merge that function into rechargers. With that, you solve the issue of rechargers competing with energisers and losing everytime, because now they offer a buff to your tank that the energisers don't, and it means that shield tankers don't have to fit both lows and highs anymore just to keep competitive. That's all I can think of right now, thanks for giving us the opportunity for some proper feed back. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.09.14 20:45:00 - [39] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Preface and Explanation: Quote: In the Shield versus Armor debate, one primary attribute that must be considered when comparing the two tanking styles is that Armor has base values whereas Shield Modules primarily work on percentages. This means that whenever a player fits a Complex Armor Repairer they receive a 9.38hp/s repair rate to their armor no matter what suit they are running. Comparatively, if a player were to fit a Complex Shield Recharger, they would receive a dynamically changing value based on whatever their suit's base shield recharge is. A Caldari Scout receives a benefit of 25.88hp/s Shield Recharge Rate from the module, whereas a Minmatar Commando would receive a benefit of 9.32hp/s. The dynamically changing values are due solely to the way shield stats on suits are calculated, based on the suit's role (Assault, Commando, etc). This can make balancing difficult, as a change to a module that would make one suit viable may not work on another suit. To bring resolution to this, a proposal was made in the fashion of Racial Based Shield Stats. Meaning that instead of role based shield stat values, each suit would have the same recharge and delay values based on their racial make and build. A Shield Recharger on a Caldari Scout would offer the same benefit as a Shield Recharger on a Caldari Sentinel, Commando, Assault, etc. Theoretically, these values would reflect racial combat philosophy, with Caldari being the primary shield tankers and Amarr being the least viable with it. This is one of many proposals on how to increase the viability of Shield Tanking and should not be considered the sole and only proposal or plan. This thread is designed to discuss the vices and virtues of this proposal and intentionally does not supply numbers as they are subject for debate. Thus, this thread exists for that very purpose. Please post below, your feedback and concerns in relation to the proposal of Racial Based Shield Stats, as well as your ideal base numbers and questions. Never considered that difference, good point!
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.14 20:51:00 - [40] - Quote Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? AVERT YOUR EYES!

Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.14 20:56:00 - [41] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.14 21:10:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? Give them the same recharge stats as the Caldari Scout. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.14 21:20:00 - [43] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? Give them the same recharge stats as the Caldari Scout. Alright, let me re-iterate: If they followed along with the Minmatar racial shield stats, meaning they'd have the same recharge and delays as every other Minmatar suit, what would you do differently to help balance them out. Borrowing from another race doesn't change the fact that they'd be an exception to the rule. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.14 21:27:00 - [44] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? Give them the same recharge stats as the Caldari Scout. Alright, let me re-iterate: If they followed along with the Minmatar racial shield stats, meaning they'd have the same recharge and delays as every other Minmatar suit, what would you do differently to help balance them out. Borrowing from another race doesn't change the fact that they'd be an exception to the rule. There are a lot of exceptions to the rule. Amarr Logi with a sidearm. Minmatar scout bonus. This would just be another one. How about lowering the recharge delay for depleted and undepleted? Further inspiring a "hit and run" tactic. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.14 21:57:00 - [45] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Will Minmatar scouts have the same recharge as they depend entirely on shields as well? Assume that they did, how would the overall balance spectrum be affected if they were the only exception? Assume that they didn't, how would you go about balancing them? If you wanted to balance a shield regen reduction to scouts, to put them in line with a shared racial shield profile, a good method would be to look at the modules that could be used to bring them back to stats equal to what they have now. So for example, if a min scout's shield recharge was nerfed from 40 to 25, a shield extender could be replaced with an energiser to get back to 40 regen. If you then buffed the hp (after skills) by 84 (one shield extender plus the energiser penalty) you will get back to the original stats, thus maintaining balance. If the delay was nerfed from 4 to 6 seconds this could be countered with a regulator instead of a profile dampener. You could then buff the scouts profile by -25% db to get back to the original stats. So in summary, min scouts regen stats being nerfed to 25hp/s and 5/7s delay could be balanced with a +84hp and -8db buff.
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 281	Posted - 2015.09.16 17:07:00 - [46] - Quote Just thinking out loud here, and I am not sure if someone already mentioned it. Why not have both racial and Dropsuit recharge rates? Have it so that it goes Caldari pÇïMinmatar pÇïGallente pÇïAmarr for race. For dropsuits, what about higher recharge rate, but lower shields for light suits, swapping around until you have lower recharge rate, but higher shields for heavy suits? Have it be Scout pÇïLogi pÇïAssault pÇïHeavy for recharge rates, and swap the order for max shield hp. The three main issues that I believe shield tankers face however, is recharge delay and interruption, and lack of a shield rep tool. Armor can constantly regen through damage. I would look at adopting or modifying the Eve model of constant shield regeneration. Inability to get shields back up can be kinda frustrating. And you don't see a whole lot of Caldari suits camping a hotly contested point because of this, IMO. You see a lot more armor suits typically, or armor tanked Caldari suits. Secondly, I would give shield tankers some kind of shield rep tool. Would it be a fairly easy thing to do to use the armor rep tool model, change the beam color to blue, and away we go?
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.09.16 17:29:00 - [47] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I'm trying to understand why the focus is on buffing shield regen lol. Shield regen right now is sooo not the issue. Still do not understand the focus on Regen. It's not the issue with shields. Technically only partially true. Regen can be quite good if and only if your shield recharge is never interrupted ever. Once shields are interrupted which happens on almost any damage because the inhibition value is outright non-functional due to being too small, armors recovery rate shoots up dramatically over shields. There's also the forever ongoing problem of proportional damage because shields HP pools are so small. If you were to balance 'anti-armor' weapons to have the same effective dps vs armor as 'anti-shield' weapons do vs shields, well those anti-armor weapons would be doing 1600-2000dps. In short shields need more hp, less delays, and functional inhibition value, slightly higher regeneration would be a boon but it's not the core issue of shield problems. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 15	Posted - 2015.09.16 19:11:00 - [48] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Preface and Explanation: Quote: In the Shield versus Armor debate, one primary attribute that must be considered when comparing the two tanking styles is that Armor has base values whereas Shield Modules primarily work on percentages. This means that whenever a player fits a Complex Armor Repairer they receive a 9.38hp/s repair rate to their armor no matter what suit they are running. Comparatively, if a player were to fit a Complex Shield Recharger, they would receive a dynamically changing value based on whatever their suit's base shield recharge is. A Caldari Scout receives a benefit of 25.88hp/s Shield Recharge Rate from the module, whereas a Minmatar Commando would receive a benefit of 9.32hp/s. The dynamically changing values are due solely to the way shield stats on suits are calculated, based on the suit's role (Assault, Commando, etc). This can make balancing difficult, as a change to a module that would make one suit viable may not work on another suit. To bring resolution to this, a proposal was made in the fashion of Racial Based Shield Stats. Meaning that instead of role based shield stat values, each suit would have the same recharge and delay values based on their racial make and build. A Shield Recharger on a Caldari Scout would offer the same benefit as a Shield Recharger on a Caldari Sentinel, Commando, Assault, etc. Theoretically, these values would reflect racial combat philosophy, with Caldari being the primary shield tankers and Amarr being the least viable with it. This is one of many proposals on how to increase the viability of Shield Tanking and should not be considered the sole and only proposal or plan. This thread is designed to discuss the vices and virtues of this proposal and intentionally does not supply numbers as they are subject for debate. Thus, this thread exists for that very purpose. Please post below, your feedback and concerns in relation to the proposal of Racial Based Shield Stats, as well as your ideal base numbers and questions. Probably misunderstanding what you're proposing, but I'm not sure that a CalSent or CalAssault should recharge as fast as CalScout. The CalScout indeed recovers quickly but is easily alpha'd. CalSents and Assaults have substantially more armor buffer in addition to deeper shield reserves; these are far less vulnerable to instagib. Seems to me the normalizing recovery rates between vastly different unit types would lead to imbalance. My two cents.


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