DUST Search - Fix no show PCs...

Kain Spero wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Kain Spero wrote:

Karras Hearn wrote:

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for no-showing, I'm saying that those consequences should be in the form of the cost of attacking not by punishing them after the fact. Because punishing after the fact won't stop it from happening and those who are determined to do it will find ways around it. Punishing after the fact will also unfairly punish those who are being paid to no show by rivals of the defending corp, which is also a valid tactic (I don't know if it is actually happening, but it could and is a valid tactic)

I'm glad we agree here.

The problem with an increased cost for CP attacks is that it could negatively impact the barrier to entry for corps trying to get into PC. Sure an ISK cost could be added to attacks even when you don't hold land, but I think that unfairly hits players trying to enter into PC. The specific act of no showing should be targeted to prevent impacting the barrier to entry. Thus a CP cost for no showing etc.

At the bare minimum whether a defender or attack no shows there needs be a mechanic in place where the match auto completes giving victory to the team that bothered to put bodies in the match. Again, it's terribly easy to put people into a match (heck you can even start a pub squad) and avoid no show penalties while keeping the ability to feint and various other forms of emergent game play.

Maybe. A begrudging maybe.

Depends on what sort of numbers you're thinking of.

Really starting with finishing off the battle if no one shows up would be a good start.

The CP penalty I think would need to at least 7500 CP (equivalent of moving/selling 150 clones), but I'm not sure if that would be of enough consequence to matter. Again, we'd be trying to recreate the pause given to folks that were throwing out clone packs at 30 to 80 million ISK a pop. A freeze on the CP wallet has also been suggested as well, but I'm not sure how much I like that idea. Something like the CP wallet being locked out for X days (no CP in or out).

As someone said earlier though if people want to engage in something more meaningful than "weaponized boredom" we need raiding mechanics that can allow fights to occur in PC in less that 24 hours potentially with 8v8, 12v12, 16v16 set ups.

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RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. RUST415 2	Posted - 2015.08.03 00:11:00 - [61] - Quote The current system is great. It allows for the smaller corps to coordinate real and false attacks to scatter the larger corps into a position of not being able to defend their holdings. The bigger corps should fear the masses of smaller pirate corps. That is the way it should be. In the last month I've seen more varied fights in PC than I ever have. More new names on the ground, more corps in the fray. It's no longer the monotony of one corp's A-team versus another corp's A-team over and over. The same tactics, the same fights, all while the greedy pigs of power sit back on their haunches and collect piles of ISK on the shoulders of the best 16 players in their corp. Feels good. "xMLx" Molon public channel. Tuesday Night Raiding Party, because drinking during the week is healthy.
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 403	Posted - 2015.08.03 00:31:00 - [62] - Quote RemingtonBeaver wrote: The current system is great. It allows for the smaller corps to coordinate real and false attacks to scatter the larger corps into a position of not being able to defend their holdings. The bigger corps should fear the masses of smaller pirate corps. That is the way it should be. In the last month I've seen more varied fights in PC than I ever have. More new names on the ground, more corps in the fray. It's no longer the monotony of one corp's A-team versus another corp's A-team over and over. The same tactics, the same fights, all while the greedy pigs of power sit back on their haunches and collect piles of ISK on the shoulders of the best 16 players in their corp. Feels good. Yeah, but do you understand? In the no show system a corp never has to attack , they can flood PC with fake matches with no intention of ever playing PC. If you want to make no showing a tactic, which I think is moronic, put a limit on the number of times a corp can no show before being forced to follow through with a real match. "Make America Great Again" Donald Trump 2016
DEATH THE KlD Imperfect - Bastards 282	Posted - 2015.08.03 00:37:00 - [63] - Quote hails8n wrote: RemingtonBeaver wrote: The current system is great. It allows for the smaller corps to coordinate real and false attacks to scatter the larger corps into a position of not being able to defend their holdings. The bigger corps should fear the masses of smaller pirate corps. That is the way it should be. In the last month I've seen more varied fights in PC than I ever have. More new names on the ground, more corps in the fray. It's no longer the monotony of one corp's A-team versus another corp's A-team over and over. The same tactics, the same fights, all while the greedy pigs of power sit back on their haunches and collect piles of ISK on the shoulders of the best 16 players in their corp. Feels good. Yeah, but do you understand? In the no show system a corp never has to attack , they can flood PC with fake matches with no intention of ever playing PC. If you want to make no showing a tactic, which I think is moronic, put a limit on the number of times a corp can no show before being forced to follow through with a real match. They understand they're just no good anyways..they do it because they know they have no chance at winning so they hide and don't even try..same as they do in pubs..back out when there's actual competition
Karras Hearn 352 Industries 73	Posted - 2015.08.03 00:50:00 - [64] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Karras Hearn wrote: I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for no-showing, I'm saying that those consequences should be in the form of the cost of attacking not by punishing them after the fact. Because punishing after the fact won't stop it from happening and those who are determined to do it will find ways around it. Punishing after the fact will also unfairly punish those who are being paid to no show by rivals of the defending corp, which is also a valid tactic (I don't know if it is actually happening, but it could and is a valid tactic) I'm glad we agree here. The problem with an increased cost for CP attacks is that it could negatively impact the barrier to entry for corps trying to get into PC. Sure an ISK cost could be added to attacks even when you don't hold land, but I think that unfairly hits players trying to enter into PC. The specific act of no showing should be targeted to prevent impacting the barrier to entry. Thus a CP cost for no showing etc. At the bare minimum whether a defender or attack no shows there needs be a mechanic in place where the match auto completes giving victory to the team that bothered to put bodies in the match. Again, it's terribly easy to put people into a match (heck you can even start a pub squad) and avoid no show penalties while keeping the ability to feint and various other forms of emergent game play. Auto completing the match again is taking away form the tactic, bore them to death. If the Match auto completes they then get to go and play FW or pub matches or join another attack/defense. If the auto complete also prevented those who showed from joining another match for an hour, then i might be able to agree with it, but otherwise its just providing the defender with rewards just for showing up and doing nothing. If they want the rewards that go with holding districts then they should have to commit to that battle for the duration, whether their opponent shows up or not otherwise it just lowers their risk, by removing the risk that they commit to a battle only to find it was a bait and switch or an attempt at breaking morale. I cannot foresee any mechanic that provides sufficient stick without harming valid tactics in the process. I also don't think the rewards for showing up when your opponent doesn't are sufficient, would there be as much complaining about no shows if the team that did show was getting better rewards? I don't think I've seen anyone complain about the defenders no showing because in that case the attackers have just won the district and the rewards are better for the attacker than if the defender shows and the attacker doesn't. Purveyor of the finest Officer weapons in the Cluster. Chief Security Officer, 352 Industries
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 203	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:17:00 - [65] - Quote hails8n wrote: If you want to make no showing a tactic, which I think is moronic, We don't want to make it a tactic, it is a tactic. And a valid one. You want to plant your flag in molden heath, people have the option to bore you because you want to hold turf. Don't want to be bored by harassment, don't hold turf. No one made you take a district. You wanted it, and part of having it is that people who want to can tie you up and keep you out of pubs/fw because you feel the need to hyper organize and always be ready. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 205	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:25:00 - [66] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: At the bare minimum whether a defender or attack no shows there needs be a mechanic in place where the match auto completes giving victory to the team that bothered to put bodies in the match. Again, it's terribly easy to put people into a match (heck you can even start a pub squad) and avoid no show penalties while keeping the ability to feint and various other forms of emergent game play. Doing this would remove weaponized boredom. So just no. Raise the price of attacks, sure. Add back in an isk component, I don't see why not. It doesn't have to be extreme, but there is room to play with the costs. You don't like the strain of holding turf, don't hold it. You can't properly organize your group into chat channels to make it more manageable to deal with your overlapping matches, hold less districts. But taking away other peoples strategic options because you can't tolerate not being able to q sync FW all night because you have to defend no shows is not a solution. Its just catering to people who don't need a handout from the devs. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Badgerr Rager Fatal Absolution 923	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:30:00 - [67] - Quote I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less One day, I would like to be good at this game
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 205	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:39:00 - [68] - Quote Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Badgerr Rager Fatal Absolution 923	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:41:00 - [69] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. I die like five times in the no shows you fscking axsholes One day, I would like to be good at this game
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 205	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:43:00 - [70] - Quote Badgerr Rager wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. I die like five times in the no shows you fscking axsholes You shoot at my tank, you get ran over. I told you the first three times, not my fault my swag gets your trigger finger popping. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

Badgerr Rager Fatal Absolution 923	Posted - 2015.08.03 01:45:00 - [71] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. I die like five times in the no shows you fscking axsholes You shoot at my tank, you get ran over. I told you the first three times, not my fault my swag gets your trigger finger popping. I get a little excited. One day, I would like to be good at this game
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 508	Posted - 2015.08.03 02:10:00 - [72] - Quote Badgerr Rager wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. I die like five times in the no shows you fscking axsholes You shoot at my tank, you get ran over. I told you the first three times, not my fault my swag gets your trigger finger popping. I get a little excited. If I ever attack FA, it will be real the first time. o7 Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Badgerr Rager Fatal Absolution 926	Posted - 2015.08.03 02:11:00 - [73] - Quote Devadander wrote: If I ever attack FA, it will be real the first time. o7 don't lie to me. One day, I would like to be good at this game
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 508	Posted - 2015.08.03 02:15:00 - [74] - Quote Badgerr Rager wrote: Devadander wrote: If I ever attack FA, it will be real the first time. o7 don't lie to me. One of us always tells the truth, and one of us always lies. I tell the truth, he always lies. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.03 03:19:00 - [75] - Quote There are problems with our End Game. Punishing "no shows" will not solve those problems. If you're looking for conflict in earnest, look for a system wherein the interests of participants are opposed rather than aligned. Give us legitimate Raid Mechanics and see the wheels of war turn: * Daily raid windows for small raids (8v8) * Weekly raid windows for large raids (16v16) * 30-45 minutes warnings * Clones stolen and sold on raider victory Give Lesser Corps the tools they need to potentially poke the bear and get away with it. No Kumbaya Corp will ever whine about a no-show again. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
VAHZZ Vader's-Fist 5	Posted - 2015.08.03 03:32:00 - [76] - Quote Fix ******* PCa disappearing! Director of Vader's Fist "Never not lurk" - CCP Logibro
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2015.08.03 03:51:00 - [77] - Quote Badgerr Rager wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Badgerr Rager wrote: I like defending no shows you fgts.... Means I die less Stat padding has always been an FA staple. I die like five times in the no shows you fscking axsholes FA So bloodthristy, we shoot each other if nobody shows up. I wish I was kidding. Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST Un-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.08.03 04:56:00 - [78] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Karras Hearn wrote: I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for no-showing, I'm saying that those consequences should be in the form of the cost of attacking not by punishing them after the fact. Because punishing after the fact won't stop it from happening and those who are determined to do it will find ways around it. Punishing after the fact will also unfairly punish those who are being paid to no show by rivals of the defending corp, which is also a valid tactic (I don't know if it is actually happening, but it could and is a valid tactic) I'm glad we agree here. The problem with an increased cost for CP attacks is that it could negatively impact the barrier to entry for corps trying to get into PC. Sure an ISK cost could be added to attacks even when you don't hold land, but I think that unfairly hits players trying to enter into PC. The specific act of no showing should be targeted to prevent impacting the barrier to entry. Thus a CP cost for no showing etc. At the bare minimum whether a defender or attack no shows there needs be a mechanic in place where the match auto completes giving victory to the team that bothered to put bodies in the match. Again, it's terribly easy to put people into a match (heck you can even start a pub squad) and avoid no show penalties while keeping the ability to feint and various other forms of emergent game play. Maybe. A begrudging maybe. Depends on what sort of numbers you're thinking of. Really starting with finishing off the battle if no one shows up would be a good start. The CP penalty I think would need to at least 7500 CP (equivalent of moving/selling 150 clones), but I'm not sure if that would be of enough consequence to matter. Again, we'd be trying to recreate the pause given to folks that were throwing out clone packs at 30 to 80 million ISK a pop. A freeze on the CP wallet has also been suggested as well, but I'm not sure how much I like that idea. Something like the CP wallet being locked out for X days (no CP in or out). As someone said earlier though if people want to engage in something more meaningful than "weaponized boredom" we need raiding mechanics that can allow fights to occur in PC in less that 24 hours potentially with 8v8, 12v12, 16v16 set ups. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 509	Posted - 2015.08.03 06:04:00 - [79] - Quote DDB and OP just learned that we aren't joking. 6 man raid paid out 887 with an avg 40k loss. G'luck in your struggles chummer. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 509	Posted - 2015.08.03 06:43:00 - [80] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: .....boo hoo CCP made this change to destroy the power circle. Now that the power circle no likey, you think they are gonna change it again??? HARDEN THE FECK UP! Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~

hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 405	Posted - 2015.08.03 07:15:00 - [81] - Quote Devadander wrote: DDB and OP just learned that we aren't joking. 6 man raid paid out 887 with an avg 40k loss. G'luck in your struggles chummer. Edit: so they threw 5.3 mil, plus the cost of ringers, at a six man raid, and we ran crap suits. (Except me, but spare no expense) In my book that is epic. Oh, and we got together 5 mins before match. Thats fine, as long as you play. I remember going 22/1 in a PC like that. Me in my proto melee commando and the other team in caldari medium and whatever. It was funny because they thought they were trolling. lul "Make America Great Again" Donald Trump 2016
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 510	Posted - 2015.08.03 09:30:00 - [82] - Quote hails8n wrote: Devadander wrote: DDB and OP just learned that we aren't joking. 6 man raid paid out 887 with an avg 40k loss. G'luck in your struggles chummer. Edit: so they threw 5.3 mil, plus the cost of ringers, at a six man raid, and we ran crap suits. (Except me, but spare no expense) In my book that is epic. Oh, and we got together 5 mins before match. Thats fine, as long as you play. I remember going 22/1 in a PC like that. Me in my proto melee commando and the other team in caldari medium and whatever. It was funny because they thought they were trolling. lul But the next one we may not be there..... Or will we? OoooOOooOooooOoo who knows? Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.08.03 10:34:00 - [83] - Quote Devadander wrote: Kain Spero wrote: .....boo hoo CCP made this change to destroy the power circle. Now that the power circle no likey, you think they are gonna change it again??? HARDEN THE FECK UP! I like some of the points in this thread, and Dev is almost correct in how things have changed, but the effect is felt on both sides, power circles will feel it less than the smaller corps as I have seen since starting PC the corps who hold land don't care about it very much, as they have the power in mercs and ISK to flip more As soon as a raid looks more hassle than it's worth, corps will either no-show, let you take it and attack you or just shrug and go attack someone else instead... which will put the boot up another corps ass... Small corps however, can be raided past the point of wanting to PC and do nothing about it For that reason, something should be in place to add some reward to having time watsed for all Corps.. What that is?? I have no idea, in a playerbase full of those wanting to exploit it so CCP can fix it, It's kind of hard to add any reward system that benefits nothing happening as it will be farmed Trainwreck forum posting prof.5 Sorry I am too busy to come to the phone right now, I am actually playing the game.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:03:00 - [84] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Karras Hearn wrote: I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for no-showing, I'm saying that those consequences should be in the form of the cost of attacking not by punishing them after the fact. Because punishing after the fact won't stop it from happening and those who are determined to do it will find ways around it. Punishing after the fact will also unfairly punish those who are being paid to no show by rivals of the defending corp, which is also a valid tactic (I don't know if it is actually happening, but it could and is a valid tactic) I'm glad we agree here. The problem with an increased cost for CP attacks is that it could negatively impact the barrier to entry for corps trying to get into PC. Sure an ISK cost could be added to attacks even when you don't hold land, but I think that unfairly hits players trying to enter into PC. The specific act of no showing should be targeted to prevent impacting the barrier to entry. Thus a CP cost for no showing etc. At the bare minimum whether a defender or attack no shows there needs be a mechanic in place where the match auto completes giving victory to the team that bothered to put bodies in the match. Again, it's terribly easy to put people into a match (heck you can even start a pub squad) and avoid no show penalties while keeping the ability to feint and various other forms of emergent game play. Maybe. A begrudging maybe. Depends on what sort of numbers you're thinking of. Really starting with finishing off the battle if no one shows up would be a good start. The CP penalty I think would need to at least 7500 CP (equivalent of moving/selling 150 clones), but I'm not sure if that would be of enough consequence to matter. Again, we'd be trying to recreate the pause given to folks that were throwing out clone packs at 30 to 80 million ISK a pop. A freeze on the CP wallet has also been suggested as well, but I'm not sure how much I like that idea. Something like the CP wallet being locked out for X days (no CP in or out). As someone said earlier though if people want to engage in something more meaningful than "weaponized boredom" we need raiding mechanics that can allow fights to occur in PC in less that 24 hours potentially with 8v8, 12v12, 16v16 set ups. Yeah, you'll never get me on board with CP Wallet freezing. Sorry. A CP penalty is one thing - I'm cool with making it more expensive to weaponize boredom and 7,500 CP is fine. But punishing players for blue-balling isn't in the spirit of New Eden and guaranteeing fights certainly isn't either. And ending the match early is in the same vein as something akin to a damage multiplier when you have all of the null cannons hacked, to be frank. That's something I've wanted to do for a long time because it would make redline matches go by faster and it would allow the stomped team an opportunity to make a comeback if they can turn it around and redline the other team. IMO, probably a hell of a lot more dev intensive but I don't want a repeat of the "simple solutions" like when we nyxxed PC ISK generation and had to wait months for something worth a damn to replace it. That "solution" didn't do anything but make it impossible for smaller entities in PC to break in against the monsters who had stocked up on ISK prior. There was no reason to even get into PC otherwise because the entire scope of PC was artificially driven conflicts as it was the only way to make ISK. If you want to do this, do it right and have something to replace it. Don't cut the cord and have players be on the backburner for months on end. Aeon Amadi for CPM 2 Design A SKIN 2
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 510	Posted - 2015.08.03 16:09:00 - [85] - Quote OK so here's the deal. I did some homework and discovered that alot of the no shows are people using cp simply because they are full.... Out of the small corp ceo's I talked to, a few didn't even know there was a battle in corp contracts... But what did you expect? None of these guys have been in the position to even think about pc before. As word spreads and more raids go down, you will see a balancing as more and more attacks become quite real. And like it or not, no show will always be there. What happens when a cp corp actually takes a dist?.... You fecks will just dogpile on them until its yours again, so please quit bitching. No extra fees, no discussions, just deal with it. That's what us small timers have had to do for years now. Nice shoe. Last night I was gonna no show just to rattle em, but this thread awakened an old beast. DDB fielded two members and the rest were ringers. I had my five good friends. I called a cruship. They called 3 python and 2 incubi. Proto/officer. We were bpo/adv/pro. Full on stomp mode for six guys, so much lol. (Some OP members were running bpo so o7 to them) I knew we were screwed when all i could scrape up was six. If I was any less vocal my troops would have scattered. Me being me, all I could do was smile-bite my cig and keep holding the charge lever on ole painless. Point being, a corp with no pc experience would crap themselves facing all that in the initial rush. You guys make it very hard to break into pc. That's a good thing. But at the same time, don't hate on people that aren't quite ready for the challenge. From our angle its pointless. If someone shows, give em respect. If they no show, think about what they would have to fight if they did. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 510	Posted - 2015.08.03 16:17:00 - [86] - Quote Also.... If a corp no shows, you win. And since you guys are all so awesome, if they showed you would still win right? Soooo take the time to get to know each other and enjoy that kdr. Same time wasted either way. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
DDx77 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 340	Posted - 2015.08.03 17:54:00 - [87] - Quote I agree with the OP Although I do think there is a valid tactic somewhere in a no show It mostly feels like a waste of everyone's time and is very discouraging because of the time involved for coordination etc. A minimum requirement of a squad of 4 in a PC or the battle is automatically lost might help ( at least someone in the other corp will have to join and wait out the match with you if they want to "no show") Also/or what if the no show corp was able to sell the contract and this pops up in the other contracts menu? Making the corp responsible for all payouts at end of match.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 512	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:53:00 - [88] - Quote I have two attacks for sale ATM, 40 million each. How's that for sandbox? Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.08.03 22:53:00 - [89] - Quote Devadander wrote: I have two attacks for sale ATM, 40 million each. How's that for sandbox? I'll give you 10 mil just to know who would be stupid enough to pay that. And congrats on taking over Contraban Joe's long held "Biggest D-bag in Dust" title.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 513	Posted - 2015.08.03 22:56:00 - [90] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Devadander wrote: I have two attacks for sale ATM, 40 million each. How's that for sandbox? I'll give you 10 mil just to know who would be stupid enough to pay that. And congrats on taking over Contraban Joe's long held "Biggest D-bag in Dust" title. Nobody can take that from him. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~



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