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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
It seems to me that over 3/4's of ADS called in are Incubus' (Incubi?)
It's certainly the all-round superior dropship, with nearly twice as much durability, and for which it doesn't really sacrifice anything. It might be marginally slower and 'clunkier' than the Python, but not enough to really matter.
I've seen Incubus' take absolute beatings and survive: Forge blast, multiple swarms, AV nades, etc. and they just chug along with hardeners on like nothing's happening.
On top of that Incubus pilots can get away with ramming everyone else out of the sky with no consequence.
That kind of survivability needs to have a drawback, which I feel should be mobility.
I feel the Incubus needs less torque, and slower acceleration, while keeping the same top speed. Not a huge nerf, but enough to bring it on par with the Python
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Mina Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why are we nerfing vehicles that are already in a terrible spot?
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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501st Headstrong
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Would prefer to see both buffed instead. AV damage was increased and everyone has AV now. What would one say of the old ROF? Just curious
"There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner
*The Mascot of 0uter.Heaven *
Internet down atm :(
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Why are we nerfing vehicles that are already in a terrible spot?
The Incubus is in anything but a terrible spot.
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Louis Domi
Tugastroy
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
978
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
This a nerf thread?
On a ads?
Ha no.... Just no...
Can we get a nerf thread on damn swarms? |
Lightning35 Delta514
48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE
908
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
With dropships, incubus ( or gorgon or grimsness) are better in the air because they can tank more and rep faster which is important in the air because you have no cover. What makes shields useless is all of the boosters fault. If the booster gave 6 pulses with 500 hp each, shields would actually survive. Armor is better because it can out rep shields.
CEO of 48th Special Operations Force
Twitter-@48SOF
Scout and Assault GK.0/Rattati and Scotsman GK.0
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 15:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Louis Domi wrote:This a nerf thread?
On a ads?
Ha no.... Just no...
Can we get a nerf thread on damn swarms?
No, this is a thread about better balancing the Python to the Incubus.
Here is the swarm launcher thread you asked for.
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Henrietta Unknown
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.07.14 16:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
True. Python goes down, shield and armor, to a STD flux. WTF?
Selling Items
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.14 16:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:It seems to me that over 3/4's of ADS called in are Incubus' (Incubi?)
It's certainly the all-round superior dropship, with nearly twice as much durability, and for which it doesn't really sacrifice anything. It might be marginally slower and 'clunkier' than the Python, but not enough to really matter.
I've seen Incubus' take absolute beatings and survive: Forge blast, multiple swarms, AV nades, etc. and they just chug along with hardeners on like nothing's happening.
On top of that Incubus pilots can get away with ramming everyone else out of the sky with no consequence.
That kind of survivability needs to have a drawback, which I feel should be mobility.
I feel the Incubus needs less torque, and slower acceleration, while keeping the same top speed. Not a huge nerf, but enough to bring it on par with the Python
a flat no. even if I agreed with anything your saying, which I don't, slower acceleration and torque has nothing to do with incubus vs python
incubus already suffer from both penalties after applying a single plate for hp, where the python doesnt.
pythons have an innate resist to av weapons more maneuverable, less durable.
incubus have more durability, penalty vs av weapons and less maneuverable.
I don't see where you should be encountering av grenades or even dumber, flux grenades, in a drop ship, but if you are, your doing something really really wrong.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 16:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:It seems to me that over 3/4's of ADS called in are Incubus' (Incubi?)
It's certainly the all-round superior dropship, with nearly twice as much durability, and for which it doesn't really sacrifice anything. It might be marginally slower and 'clunkier' than the Python, but not enough to really matter.
I've seen Incubus' take absolute beatings and survive: Forge blast, multiple swarms, AV nades, etc. and they just chug along with hardeners on like nothing's happening.
On top of that Incubus pilots can get away with ramming everyone else out of the sky with no consequence.
That kind of survivability needs to have a drawback, which I feel should be mobility.
I feel the Incubus needs less torque, and slower acceleration, while keeping the same top speed. Not a huge nerf, but enough to bring it on par with the Python
a flat no. even if I agreed with anything your saying, which I don't, slower acceleration and torque has nothing to do with incubus vs python incubus already suffer from both penalties after applying a single plate for hp, where the python doesnt. pythons have an innate resist to av weapons more maneuverable, less durable. incubus have more durability, penalty vs av weapons and less maneuverable. I don't see where you should be encountering av grenades or even dumber, flux grenades, in a drop ship, but if you are, your doing something really really wrong.
Thanks for the feedback.
I understand you disagree with the methods I've proposed, but you didn't really acknowledge the actually point of the post.
Do you disagree that the Incubus is all round superior to the Python? If not, then what would you like to see tweaked instead of what I proposed.
Or do you think the Python and Incubus are already equally viable options as an ADS.
Please let us know
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.07.14 17:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Incubus is an armor based ship.
Forge gun, Swarms, Rails everything meant to ideally hit dropships from long range is anti armor.
Like Mina said, dropships as a whole are already in a bad spot, that's like if I complained about Amarr Logistics getting a sidearm back when it sucked.
....wait, people did complain about it getting a sidearm even when it did suck....
Damn DUST...
Sgt Kirk's Official Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.14 17:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah, no. IF anything, the Incubus being used in an almost exclusive anti-armor AV environment is proof the Python is crap, not the Incubus being too good. This isn't a problem with the Python itself, but with shield vehicles in general.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Apocalyptic Destroyerr
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
583
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Posted - 2015.07.14 17:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why the hell would you even think about nerfing an ADS ?
If you were a true Pilot, you wouldn't have said that. Simply buff the Pythons Durability. Done. |
Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 18:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
I agree that the Incubus outclasses the Python in nearly every way, but I disagree that we need to nerf the Incubus because of that.
Nerfing something typically means to reduce an overpowered feature or bring it in line with other suits/vehicles of its class. The Incubus however, is not overpowered, and therefore nerfing it would serve no purpose.
The Python however is commonly thought to be underpowered. It is in need of more fitting space, and perhaps an HP boost, but nothing drastic.
Nerfing one thing does not automatically make another thing better, just as two wrongs will never make a right.
CPM 2 Candidate
YouTube
Pink Scramblers!
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
See, I run a Python semi-often and I feel it's arguably 'fine' as it is.
It's great as a hit-and-run vehicle, and knowing when you've overstayed your welcome. That's how an ADS should function.
The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area.
The factor nobody seems to be considering is that most people agree swarms need to be nerfed. Swarms are the main deterrent to Dropships. A swarm nerf would render the Incubus downright OP, while making the Python more viable, but still susceptible to Forges etc.
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Is this not armour vs shields all over? lol.
On a serious note, Assault Dropships need love. They should be damn well feared when they have an ace pilot. (There are one or two guys left out there that are that good. Fly like they are on crack and kill everything)
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Darken-Sol
Intruder Excluder
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:See, I run a Python semi-often and I feel it's arguably 'fine' as it is.
It's great as a hit-and-run vehicle, and knowing when you've overstayed your welcome. That's how an ADS should function.
The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area.
The factor nobody seems to be considering is that most people agree swarms need to be nerfed. Swarms are the main deterrent to Dropships. A swarm nerf would render the Incubus downright OP, while making the Python more viable, but still susceptible to Forges etc.
Swarms should only be for aerial targets. They could be balanced much better with ds. Tanks are susceptible to every form of av. Having swarms made to fight tanks and not having flying tanks is a bad idea.
Crush them
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Operative 1174 Uuali
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
912
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:It seems to me that over 3/4's of ADS called in are Incubus' (Incubi?)
It's certainly the all-round superior dropship, with nearly twice as much durability, and for which it doesn't really sacrifice anything. It might be marginally slower and 'clunkier' than the Python, but not enough to really matter.
I've seen Incubus' take absolute beatings and survive: Forge blast, multiple swarms, AV nades, etc. and they just chug along with hardeners on like nothing's happening.
On top of that Incubus pilots can get away with ramming everyone else out of the sky with no consequence.
That kind of survivability needs to have a drawback, which I feel should be mobility.
I feel the Incubus needs less torque, and slower acceleration, while keeping the same top speed. Not a huge nerf, but enough to bring it on par with the Python
Being an Inc pilot I agree. This is a Gallente vehicle which means it would have a good forward speed with a slow start and less maneuverability. The afterburner gives it its quick spurt to move in on a target like Gal ships do in EVE.
The Python however, is a Cal vehicle so should not be able to perform as well at CQ. It should be vulnerable, but to allow it to be better at CQ the ADS should get massive splash damage bonuses to small turrets (see my CPM proposal) so as to become better strafing weapons rather than hover weapons.
Swarms can then remain as powerful as they are now.
MY CPM2 PLATFORM
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maybe deadcatz
the nomercs
337
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Posted - 2015.07.14 22:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lol come back when caldari vehicles can actually charge their sheilds faster than the gallente ones. I see my saga charging sheilds ages after my methana. One could say that gal vehicles outdo gal vehicles in their own category.
I mean come one what's with the HP stats on all the vehicles. 300,sheild to 1200 armour(methana) and ,600 shield to 450 armour(saga) What the flux CCP. Why can't shield lavs have that 1200 shield and 300 armour? And what's with havs? Sicas have 2200, shield HP and 900 armour. And the somas have 1200 shield to 2700 armour. Oh sure. Caldari vehicles are so badly gimped that you have to be running up against noooooooob players or be really good at avoiding the plasma cannons and flux nades and whatever people use as av.
scanner? whats that? you can see enemies on the radar? just use your eyes and save a equipment slot for something useful
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EternalRMG
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.14 22:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
As a vet Dropship pilot, i have to say that it all depends on your playstyle.
if you go full hit and run like i do, Incubus are bad because you have worse maneuvering, less Dps (even if it is barely noticiable now), have penalties vs Most AA weapons (Swarms n Rails) and you cant really achieve a recharge rate of 230 hp/sec while having as much hp as a Python.
If you go for a fit that has much more staying potential, Pythons suck because you can have less eHP, collision dmg is a ***** and you get knocked by almost anything while the incubus is a bit more stable can be thrown against a wall without losing 70% of its HP. Also you got perma reps.
With the right fit, the python can be even better than the Incubus in many cases (besides dogfights)
As someone who has every vehicle skill maxxed, i can tell you the python has more potential than the Incubus, because if the incubus is used as a staying platform, you will be eventually overwhelmed by swarms that you cant outrep or out run, while a hit and run python isnt normally overwhelmed by firepower because its constantly moving and when you are, you can out run the best AA weapons: the swarm.
The python fit ive always run has 3300 HP,pro turret and afterburner and rarely gets shot down if used smartly while my best incubus fit cant barely hold itself against swarm (might have smth. to do with play style)
The best buff for ADS would be done in 2 parts:
First in the Skills; Cal ADS gives more Splash, Gal ADS gives Heatsink
Second in Suits: Amarr gives bonus to Armour eHP , Cal Gives bonus to Shield regulation and Missile RoF, Minmatar gives bonus to Speed and Torque, Gallente gives bonus to reps and Hibrid RoF.
Pilot Suit Skills gives bonus to Module Cooldown
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Best Assault Dropship Pilot in the Game
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 22:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
EternalRMG wrote:As a vet Dropship pilot, i have to say that it all depends on your playstyle.
if you go full hit and run like i do, Incubus are bad because you have worse maneuvering, less Dps (even if it is barely noticiable now), have penalties vs Most AA weapons (Swarms n Rails) and you cant really achieve a recharge rate of 230 hp/sec while having as much hp as a Python.
If you go for a fit that has much more staying potential, Pythons suck because you can have less eHP, collision dmg is a ***** and you get knocked by almost anything while the incubus is a bit more stable can be thrown against a wall without losing 70% of its HP. Also you got perma reps.
With the right fit, the python can be even better than the Incubus in many cases (besides dogfights)
As someone who has every vehicle skill maxxed, i can tell you the python has more potential than the Incubus, because if the incubus is used as a staying platform, you will be eventually overwhelmed by swarms that you cant outrep or out run, while a hit and run python isnt normally overwhelmed by firepower because its constantly moving and when you are, you can out run the best AA weapons: the swarm.
The python fit ive always run has 3300 HP,pro turret and afterburner and rarely gets shot down if used smartly while my best incubus fit cant barely hold itself against swarm (might have smth. to do with play style)
The best buff for ADS would be done in 2 parts:
First in the Skills; Cal ADS gives more Splash, Gal ADS gives Heatsink
Second in Suits: Amarr gives bonus to Armour eHP , Cal Gives bonus to Shield regulation and Missile RoF, Minmatar gives bonus to Speed and Torque, Gallente gives bonus to reps and Hibrid RoF.
Pilot Suit Skills gives bonus to Module Cooldown
You could be right about the potential, but from what I've observed Pythons don't tend to reach that potential.
I've seen Incubus' get hit by a forge, multiple swarms and nose dive into the ground, before taking off again and flying away. Their durability is just excessive. It could only be justified if they were much less mobile.
Also annoying is how often I see them ramming all the Caldari DS' out of the sky, without so much of a scratch on themselves.
If a swarm nerf/overhaul happens (which most people I've talked to support) then Incubus' would be truly out of hand.
My only point is that the Incubus and Python should be completely equally viable and competitive, which they aren't
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Jammeh McJam
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
General Tso's Alliance
317
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Posted - 2015.07.15 00:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you want to balance the incubus and the python, buff the python and don't nerf the incubus.
Easiest way to do this would be to buff the python bonus to missiles, not necessarily back to what it was before, but enough to make a noticeable difference.
"We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends
PC master race
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
731
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Posted - 2015.07.15 00:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd say the main reason pythons aren't used is just how likely you are to get rammed, at least in an incubus you stand a chance of surviving
ADS Ramming Revenge!
Plasma Cannon Rampage
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 00:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:EternalRMG wrote:As a vet Dropship pilot, i have to say that it all depends on your playstyle.
if you go full hit and run like i do, Incubus are bad because you have worse maneuvering, less Dps (even if it is barely noticiable now), have penalties vs Most AA weapons (Swarms n Rails) and you cant really achieve a recharge rate of 230 hp/sec while having as much hp as a Python.
If you go for a fit that has much more staying potential, Pythons suck because you can have less eHP, collision dmg is a ***** and you get knocked by almost anything while the incubus is a bit more stable can be thrown against a wall without losing 70% of its HP. Also you got perma reps.
With the right fit, the python can be even better than the Incubus in many cases (besides dogfights)
As someone who has every vehicle skill maxxed, i can tell you the python has more potential than the Incubus, because if the incubus is used as a staying platform, you will be eventually overwhelmed by swarms that you cant outrep or out run, while a hit and run python isnt normally overwhelmed by firepower because its constantly moving and when you are, you can out run the best AA weapons: the swarm.
The python fit ive always run has 3300 HP,pro turret and afterburner and rarely gets shot down if used smartly while my best incubus fit cant barely hold itself against swarm (might have smth. to do with play style)
The best buff for ADS would be done in 2 parts:
First in the Skills; Cal ADS gives more Splash, Gal ADS gives Heatsink
Second in Suits: Amarr gives bonus to Armour eHP , Cal Gives bonus to Shield regulation and Missile RoF, Minmatar gives bonus to Speed and Torque, Gallente gives bonus to reps and Hibrid RoF.
Pilot Suit Skills gives bonus to Module Cooldown You could be right about the potential, but from what I've observed Pythons don't tend to reach that potential. I've seen Incubus' get hit by a forge, multiple swarms and nose dive into the ground, before taking off again and flying away. Their durability is just excessive. It could only be justified if they were much less mobile. Also annoying is how often I see them ramming all the Caldari DS' out of the sky, without so much of a scratch on themselves. If a swarm nerf/overhaul happens (which most people I've talked to support) then Incubus' would be truly out of hand. My only point is that the Incubus and Python should be completely equally viable and competitive, which they aren't
Enough anecdotes, bring evidence.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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xavier zor
Second-Nature
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 02:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Would prefer to see both buffed instead. AV damage was increased and everyone has AV now. What would one say of the old ROF? Just curious
agreed. ADS themselves are in a terrible spot; swarms are so easy even a blueberry can use them whereas almost no-one will take up ADS because everyone has swarms and it is difficult to learn!
Python's go down real quick against an AV player...just 1 AV player! It should NOT take 1 player to hold back a 350k dropship that people invest PLENTY of ISK and time into.
As well as ROF i think the python needs extra PG and an extra high slot
Out of retirement
notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again
ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
642
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Posted - 2015.07.15 03:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Louis Domi wrote:This a nerf thread?
On a ads?
Ha no.... Just no...
Can we get a nerf thread on damn swarms?
are you blind? have you not seen everyone trying to nerf them already?
click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
642
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Posted - 2015.07.15 03:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
man I get the feeling that none of you have come across a truly skilled pilot
click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
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xavier zor
Second-Nature
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 04:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sicerly Yaw wrote:man I get the feeling that none of you have come across a truly skilled pilot
i have, tried to take him down with my minmando...he was in an incubus unsurprisingly
Out of retirement
notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again
ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 04:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area.
This verges into hyperbole, as calling any dropships semi-invincible, even an Incubus, just seems like an exaggeration. We've already established that dropships need love, so I think it's kind of counter productive to advocate nerfing one of them.
CPM 2 Candidate
YouTube
Pink Scramblers!
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 05:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area. This verges into hyperbole, as calling any dropships semi-invincible, even an Incubus, just seems like an exaggeration. We've already established that dropships need love, so I think it's kind of counter productive to advocate nerfing one of them.
Incubus needs hate.
That may be hard to hear, but it's true. We can't group all dropships together, as CA and GA DS' aren't in the same league.
I have witnessed an Incubus take a Forge blast, 2 swarm volleys, and smash into the ground before flying away perfectly fine. That needs love to you? I've seen Gorgons survive similar scenarios ffs.
As for Caldari DS', call me crazy but if we think we were to tweak the swarm launcher then they'd be fine as they are. I manage to get by just fine in my Python/Myron.
Nearly all my DS deaths come from either
- Making a mistake/Hanging around somewhere I shouldn't
- Getting rammed by an Incubus/Gorgon/Grim.
Dropships should be hard to fly and take skill to use properly.
Caldari dropships require skill
Gallente dropships do not.
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xavier zor
Second-Nature
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 06:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
Caldari dropships require skill
Gallente dropships do not.
Shield tanking is hardmode, period
Out of retirement
notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again
ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
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Skihids
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.07.15 06:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
I've flown Myrons and Pythons fir mist of my career and prefer the maneuverability over the armor ships. I switched to armor right after the vehicle overhaul though as the shield hardeners had pitiful activation times vs armor and shields are the first to get hit.
In armor you can wait to activate your hardeners until you take a shield hit. In a shield ship you don't have that luxury. Your first hit takes out so much of your reserve that the hardener has nothing to work with. So with shields you have the double curse of having to activate early and have it shut off just as you get into position. |
Skihids
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.07.15 06:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Is Judge Rhadamanthus still around? That man is the best pilot I have ever seen on top of making the best evaluations of dropship balance that this forum has ever seen. |
Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 07:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
I'd be ecstatic if I could run into the ground and not die in my python. Or tap a building and not loose half my tank. Or land and not take damage.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
643
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Posted - 2015.07.15 08:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area. This verges into hyperbole, as calling any dropships semi-invincible, even an Incubus, just seems like an exaggeration. We've already established that dropships need love, so I think it's kind of counter productive to advocate nerfing one of them.
now here is a pilot that can be a pain in the assets if not on your side.
that being said no nerfs needed but cant push it as giving them a buff would make this pilot invincible hyperbole or not Darth is OP enough as it is
click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 09:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
[/quote]
Dropships should be hard to fly and take skill to use properly.
Caldari dropships require skill
Gallente dropships do not.[/quote]
ah this a troll thread.
good show making me reply. guess you running as the soraya xel for cpm2.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Python needs hella love with how easy it is to take down.
Then again I do have maxed plasma cannon and galmando.
I want to be a caveman!
psn: marko_blues
Kringlaugd wierd, ein spadi for qvoki ne skeifr drpr munni ne svinhqfdi.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:If a swarm nerf/overhaul happens (which most people I've talked to support) then Incubus' would be truly out of hand.
That depends entirely on the nature of any Swarm modifications. I have been vehement in my support of a change to make Swarms more like dumb-fired AV grenades (in application) which would go hand in hand with things like a velocity increase, as well as providing skilful players the ability to preempt enemy vehicles and actually fire around corners.
A change to Swarm operation doesn't inherently mean making them do only 4 damage per missile, there are other balancing points.
On the topic at hand, Incubi have the great advantage of permanent regen, which is also why Madrugars are so favoured at the moment. Basically, they don't need to leave an area to repair,they can stay and fight - against one fully specced up Swarmed they'll likely die (seriously, Wiyrkomis do redonkulous damage: 312*4*1.2*1.15 = 1722 per volley before damage mods or Commando; MinCom ca now do 2233 per volley to armour.)
But really, the big issue is that shields are crap. The only Python fit is use much of any more is a double hardened one for clearing out uplink hotspots and basically never engage anything without my hardeners running. I don't really use the Incubus much either, mostly because I dislike the Missile on it (because the Blaster should be the go to AP weapon, but it's crap) and find there's only one real fit.
Anyway, I disagree that Incubi are there only viable ADS, on the principle that ADS aren't really that viable outside of very specific circumstances due to uplinks and AV essentially removing any purpose they could have.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
579
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
iam not too accumusted to flying ADS that well. butt I can say this: simply give the python more fitting space.
incubus can soak up av and just hover around making a nusince of its self as an ads should. however if its pilot is clumsily it is easy to deal with.
the python suffers from being unable to fit much on it.
the std dropships though.............dam you can build some stiff fittings with those :X std dropships are fine.
all in all the python just needs a fitting buff.........mainly since a laser rifle can kill the bloody thing. I did it and it was hilarious.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47521458/
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Oppose me and you shall incure my wrath.
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tffvbhb
Team Bukkakke
11
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:It seems to me that over 3/4's of ADS called in are Incubus' (Incubi?)
It's certainly the all-round superior dropship, with nearly twice as much durability, and for which it doesn't really sacrifice anything. It might be marginally slower and 'clunkier' than the Python, but not enough to really matter.
I've seen Incubus' take absolute beatings and survive: Forge blast, multiple swarms, AV nades, etc. and they just chug along with hardeners on like nothing's happening.
On top of that Incubus pilots can get away with ramming everyone else out of the sky with no consequence.
That kind of survivability needs to have a drawback, which I feel should be mobility.
I feel the Incubus needs less torque, and slower acceleration, while keeping the same top speed. Not a huge nerf, but enough to bring it on par with the Python
I have seen some good pythons out there most of the time the only way I get them is when they get close enough to get hit by an av nade |
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.15 16:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:See, I run a Python semi-often and I feel it's arguably 'fine' as it is.
It's great as a hit-and-run vehicle, and knowing when you've overstayed your welcome. That's how an ADS should function.
The Incubus on the other hand is often a semi-invincible flying tank which takes multiple AV users to make it ever consider leaving the area.
The factor nobody seems to be considering is that most people agree swarms need to be nerfed. Swarms are the main deterrent to Dropships. A swarm nerf would render the Incubus downright OP, while making the Python more viable, but still susceptible to Forges etc.
Semi-invincible most definitely not. It takes a complex 120mm plate to survive 3 proto swarms before you add in proficiency/damage mods/minmando bonus. Some math.
We have 3 missiles doing 312 damage each at the proto level. that's 1248 damage total per swarm. Multiply by 1.2 to account for armor bonus and we get 1497.6. Multiply by 3 total swarms and you get 4492.8 damage. This is a swarm completely on its own, no modifications at all. Now an Incubus has 2362 base health. A complex 120mm plate adds 1885 health for a total of 4247 health. You cannot fit any other plate on top of this because even if you use everything else standard and a complex PG upgrade, you won't have enough PG left over.
To recap, 3 swarms unmodified does 4497.8 armor damage. An Incubus has a maximum potential of 4247 armor health. 3 swarms will kill it with 250 damage to spare. Only the Incubus' shields allow it to survive. Add in any more than 2 damage mods, and our Incubus is doomed no matter what he fits.
Now when people call for swarms to be nerfed, They aren't (at least I hope they aren't) arguing to nerf direct damage. Swarms need a nerf in the way of making them near impossible to hit dropships. Reduce their speed and acceleration so that escaping them is quite easy. On top of that, take the assault swarm launcher and make it into a dedicated anti-air weapon. Nerf is damage by 20-25%, greatly increase missile speed and acceleration, and reduce lock on time. Now base swarms are better for anti-tank, and assault swarms are better for anti-air purposes. This is fair and balanced. You can't have swarms strong enough to kill a tank and fast enough to catch a dropship; that's having your cake and eating it too.
Python's are weaker because shields are weaker. They do not gain near enough benefit for the sacrifices they make. We need to tak a hard look at shield vehicles and buff them to be equal with armor. Once we have balance between shield vs armor vehicles, we can tweak AV to be equally effective against both.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 17:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
A drop ship should die from 3 proto swarm volleys. Especially considering we only have BASIC tier dropships currently.
Dropships are not meant to be flying tanks.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 18:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:A drop ship should die from 3 proto swarm volleys. Especially considering we only have BASIC tier dropships currently.
Dropships are not meant to be flying tanks.
By that logic, ADSs should be far tougher than DSs, since they are essentially T2 hulls.
In other words it's a dumb statement. Dying from three volleys will be fine once DSs can do something other than: get hit - attempt to flee because they know what's coming - still get hit - die.
ADSs surviving three Swarm volleys is currently reasonable because there is no escaping. Even the full-on flight that pilots undertake when they receive fire is only somewhat better than death - a Swarmer firing at an ADS will likely reap 75-150 WP from them and get them to leave the battle for 20-60 second, even if they don't come close to killing them, simply because an ADS cannot afford to stay in an area with AV for longer than 5 seconds.
Your proclaimed semi-invincible Incubus is nothing of the sort. PRO Swarms demolish any ADS that isn't hardened (either killing it, or getting rewarded and forcing it to flee) and even hardened ones must retreat after a very short period of time.
And as touched on before, the issue with swarms isn't the damage, it's the application. This is one of the reasons I find your V/AV balancing threads so dumb, because they miss the whole point of the issue so commonly.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 18:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Incubus needs hate.
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Caldari dropships require skill
Gallente dropships do not.
You seem to care very little about your own dropship, but instead look to be on a quest to destroy the other.
If we bring the Incubus down to near or about the Python's level, then all we've acomplished is to make both ADS' suffer.
If we buff one and nerf the other, we've simply flip-floped and remain in the situation we are in now albeit with roles reversed.
But if we simply bring the Python up to the Incubus' level, everybody "wins." Effective hit and run dropship for you, hardened anti-vehicle machine for me, and the AVers can continue to happily shoot us both down.
We can accomplish so much if we stay away from the mentality of "My toy is broken so I'm gonna break his" and instead look at things in a holistic and positive way.
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 18:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Incubus needs hate. Talos Vagheitan wrote:Caldari dropships require skill
Gallente dropships do not. You seem to care very little about your own dropship, but instead look to be on a quest to destroy the other. If we bring the Incubus down to near or about the Python's level, then all we've acomplished is to make both ADS' suffer. If we buff one and nerf the other, we've simply flip-floped and remain in the situation we are in now albeit with roles reversed. But if we simply bring the Python up to the Incubus' level, everybody "wins." Effective hit and run dropship for you, hardened anti-vehicle machine for me, and the AVers can continue to happily shoot us both down. We can accomplish so much if we stay away from the mentality of "My toy is broken so I'm gonna break his" and instead look at things in a holistic and positive way.
Appreciate the feedback.
I'd like the point out though that my view on this is actually the most holistic, as I seem to be the only one considering the current (somewhat OP) state of swarms into this.
You have to look at broader issues than just the DS' themselves.
As for the "breaking the other toy" comment, I'm afraid it's incorrect.
This may be controversial, but I don't see a ton wrong with the Python/Myron. I manage to do very well in them. If I play it safe I rarely die, only when I get carried away and start getting too aggressive do I usually get shot down. That feels right to me.
I like that it's difficult to do properly. Problem is I don't feel flying an Incubus is that difficult : There is no penalty for crashing into things, and I see tons of Inc pilots completely disregard AV, which is wrong.
That's all I have to say on this matter.
When the personal insults etc begin is when the conversation usually begins to degrade.
And remember, there are nunerous factors to consider. Limiting your view on this to just the DS' themselves leaves a lot of important info out.
Thanks
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EternalRMG
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 20:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
I think that hardeners on a Python are NEVER the way to go.
Youll never get 100% efficiency because of first hit shield loss.
Python need speed and tank
thats it.
If you have the right fit you cant enough to kill the swarmer and fast enough to escape a third Swarms volley ( you must start running as soon as the second is launched)
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Best Assault Dropship Pilot in the Game
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:I'd like the point out though that my view on this is actually the most holistic, as I seem to be the only one considering the current (somewhat OP) state of swarms into this.
I agree with the "somewhat" part, as we've already established that a cautious pilot can evade most swarms if he puts thought into it.
So if AV is mostly fine, and you can do reasonably well in your Python, are you advocating for the collision mechanics of armor vehicles to be tweaked? Ramming, colliding, and crashing all keep popping up, which makes me think it's the root of the issue.
If that's the case, then we just circle around to the same question. If we reduce the Incubus to the Python's level of physical durability, we end up with two paper planes instead of one.
In any case, speed comes at a loss of tank and vice-versa. This is how Rattati is shaping dropsuits and it makes sense for vehicles as well. Pythons take way too much collision damage, no arguments there, but it still makes sense to me that a Caldari ship speeding around would take more collision damage than a lumbering Gallente rock.
Or to put it another way, the damage you take from hitting something should at least correlate with the speed you were going and the speed of the thing that hit you. Therefore, it makes sense that Pythons with their faster acceleration would reach top speed much more quickly and punish those that were overzealous with the thrust in confined city spaces.
Whereas the Incubus, because it accelerates so slowly, simply does not reach the speed of the Python in the time it takes to hit a nearby wall, and therefore takes less damage because of it.
All this meaning that yes, piloting a Python should require more care as you flit from one place to another raining speedy death, while the Incubus pilot bumbles around looking for vehicles to hunt, smacking his head as he walks out the door...
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
Darth, I find that it doesn't matter what speed the dropships is going with regards the collision. Pythons take tons of damage, even at barely above stationary and Incubi take barely any at full tilt.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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EternalRMG
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:I'd like the point out though that my view on this is actually the most holistic, as I seem to be the only one considering the current (somewhat OP) state of swarms into this. I agree with the "somewhat" part, as we've already established that a cautious pilot can evade most swarms if he puts thought into it. So if AV is mostly fine, and you can do reasonably well in your Python, are you advocating for the collision mechanics of armor vehicles to be tweaked? Ramming, colliding, and crashing all keep popping up, which makes me think it's the root of the issue. If that's the case, then we just circle around to the same question. If we reduce the Incubus to the Python's level of physical durability, we end up with two paper planes instead of one. In any case, speed comes at a loss of tank and vice-versa. This is how Rattati is shaping dropsuits and it makes sense for vehicles as well. Pythons take way too much collision damage, no arguments there, but it still makes sense to me that a Caldari ship speeding around would take more collision damage than a lumbering Gallente rock. Or to put it another way, the damage you take from hitting something should at least correlate with the speed you were going and the speed of the thing that hit you. Therefore, it makes sense that Pythons with their faster acceleration would reach top speed much more quickly and punish those that were overzealous with the thrust in confined city spaces. Whereas the Incubus, because it accelerates so slowly, simply does not reach the speed of the Python in the time it takes to hit a nearby wall, and therefore takes less damage because of it. All this meaning that yes, piloting a Python should require more care as you flit from one place to another raining speedy death, while the Incubus pilot bumbles around looking for vehicles to hunt, smacking his head as he walks out the door...
Another problem that comes with insane collision are the activity areas.
Pythons cant fly low or near structures of any kind because a forge shot or swarms ( of any kind ) throws you against everything which causes you to lose all your shields. In contrast Incubi take less collision dmg and isnt throwm against everything by simple swarms , making it perfect for enclosed spaces and places with many structures [This feature is totally justified because incubi are supposed to be heavier and therfore less likely to be knocked over]
But now comes the problem, the incubus and the python are both almost identical when it comes to killing stuff in open areas. The speed difference isnt big enough for the Python to be able to cover and deny more open areas than the incubus because both have to stay still to kill and have similar speeds ( + python having to run to rep)
a good fix would be =slightly Less Collision DMG, more missile splash for Python ( given by the skill) so it easier to get kills on the move and either more innate speed or another low and the return of the overdrives
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Best Assault Dropship Pilot in the Game
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Skihids
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
So CCP is still using explosive paint on dropships? They must have gotten a hell of a deal on it. |
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EternalRMG
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
Skihids wrote:So CCP is still using explosive paint on dropships? They must have gotten a hell of a deal on it.
They like their ACME shields too.
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501st Headstrong
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
I've asked these before and I'll ask them again:
What is the role of an Assault Dropship?
Why can't we simply have Python CK.0s and Incubus Gk.0s?
Why can't swarms be tank only, and Assault swarms ADS only?
The reason I am ALL for nerfing swarms (mind you I have Minmando Maxed with damage mods last I played), is because it is SO stupid that swarms do more damage than a Forge Gun in a similar span of time even though it takes a HEAVY dropsuit to use an ANTIMATTER CANNON USED FOR WHAT WE USE DYNAMITE FOR TODAY....
Swarms need to be a deterrent, a telling dropships to GTFO if there is one on the field, two should make an ADS say ok...might need to leave.
Literally everyone player can use AV. AV doesn't always render for Dropships. You have no early warning for dropships. A Python always has to run because they can't apply enough tank to effectively use their hardners, and Boosters don't always work.
Reduce Swarm Damage. Forge guns need to be the weapon for if you want to drop an ADS solo.
Swarm: Deterrent, kills if the pilot gets overconfident. Use with more in squad to lure an ADS into a false sense of safety, then use 4 on it at the same time.
Forge: Up high, able to hit a running ADS. Kills them if you are skilled...like the old days
Sorry for the caps
"There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner
*The Mascot of 0uter.Heaven *
Internet down atm :(
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501st Headstrong
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 21:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
And Talos what is your Python fit? I knew players who could play it well...but I'm curious of the fit, and if it is in line with theirs...
"There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner
*The Mascot of 0uter.Heaven *
Internet down atm :(
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 22:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Darth, I find that it doesn't matter what speed the dropships is going with regards the collision. Pythons take tons of damage, even at barely above stationary and Incubi take barely any at full tilt.
You are 100% correct, of course. Not only are Pythons weak in general, they take far too much of a beating from small bumps and scrapes.
I'm not trying to say Caldari collision mechanics are fine, because they clearly are not, but rather that it makes sense to me that they would take slightly more damage from said bumps than their bulky cousin.
The Python is still semi-broken, we're just debating how far the break goes 
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 22:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Darth, I find that it doesn't matter what speed the dropships is going with regards the collision. Pythons take tons of damage, even at barely above stationary and Incubi take barely any at full tilt. You are 100% correct, of course. Not only are Pythons weak in general, they take far to much of a beating from small bumps and scrapes. I'm not trying to say Caldari collision mechanics are fine, because they clearly are not, but rather that it makes sense to me that they would take slightly more damage from said bumps than their bulky cousin. The Python is still semi-broken, we're just debating how far the break goes
Oh, for sure. Though if we follow some of the EVE logic, armour is weaker to Kinetic damage whereas shields are stronger. This, if we apply it to collision should really mean that shields are better off in a collision where armour should actually be worse off than now.
Lore-wise, this could be justified by saying that the shields are far easier to 'revert to full/proper' status/shape/whatever.
Not saying that armour should take as much as shields do currently, but armour should - overall - take more damage from a collision than shields.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 22:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
I love lore, and I get what you're saying, but I can see it clashing with gameplay.
If we flip things around and have armor take more collision damage, we'll have a Python that basically becomes a pinball of death, bouncing off of things like the Incubus does, but with increased speed and fire rate.
On the other hand, this wouldn't be bad for the Incubus from a small railgun perspective, as a dogfighting dropship shouldn't have to worry about buildings anyway. The trouble comes from the small blaster, which if it ever becomes worthwhile, would necessitate flying low.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just feel this might be one of those situations where Lore and good Gameplay butt heads.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.15 23:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
I don't see a particular issue, gameplay wise - I'm not suggesting they swap. Regardless, I've taken us off topic.
Nerfing Incubi doesn't solve anything. Buffing Pythons, reasonably, does.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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