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ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 249	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:33:00 - [1] - Quote Okay This is going to be allot of Math when adding % Damage Modifiers to these Weapons, this includes Damage Mods & Skill Mods (e.g Commando Suit Bonus). Oh, plus the Warbarge Damage Mod... So i discovered this while playing as a Commando using the APEX Variant for the Amarr & it had the original ScR which was annoying considering it'll overheat over time in my face allot, so i decided since i've got a LR for Long-Range, I'm going to use the AScR for CQC I first used the Proto version until i was like "Wait a Minute, i'm using a Commando Suit" So i decided to swap the AScR proto for the Militia Version & i've added all the Damage Mods I had onto the weapon... Here my Skills so far: Commando at Lvl 3 - 6% ScR Proficiency at Lvl 5 - 15% Warbarge Damage Lvl 3 - 3% 2 KrinGÇÖs LEX -71 Damage Modifier - 8% Total - 32% 0.32% x 38 = 12.16 12.16 + 38 = 50 50 Damage, that's more than the base Damage of the Proto Variant. This can be applied to other weapons for maximum effect & when i used this in battle I just ripped ass. But lets try it on a None Commando Suit, like a Logi, again this is an APEX Variant. So the difference here is: ScR Proficiency at Lvl 5 - 15% Warbarge Damage Lvl 3 - 3% 2 KrinGÇÖs LEX -71 Damage Modifier - 8% Total 26% 0.26 x 38 = 9.88 9.88 + 38 = 47 47 Damage, that's 3 less than what's on the Commando, but again still effective...
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:41:00 - [2] - Quote That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. Commando skill applies first (as bonuses apply highest to lowest, unpenalized to penalized) and it only applies to laser weapons. The krins damage mods apply next and have a stacking penalty because all percentile modules have a stacking penalty except for the jump speed portion of myo's which is bugged and yet to be fixed. Scr proficiency and warbarge proficiency apply last as they're not part of the actual damage formula, but they modify the profile portion. So [basedmg] * [commando skill] * [damage mod1(stackingpenaltycheck)] [damagemod2(stackingpenalty check)] = final 'damage', which is then modified by weapon profile. [weapon profile] [proficiency skill(when applicable)] * [warbarge bonus(if applicable)]. A proto weapon will still start out 10% ahead of a mlt weapon. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties is a handy link just for figuring out individual damage mod values. But in short what you're getting is 38 * 1.06 * 1.04(1.0) * [1.04(~.87) = 1.0348] = 43.349 43.349 [1.20 * 1.15 * 1.05] = 62.812 vs shield or 43.349 * [.8 * 1.05] = 36.41 vs armor You get 2.5x damage off of a charged scr shot. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:42:00 - [3] - Quote sorry bud thats not how that math works out 381.06=a a1.03=b b1.04=c c1.0312=d (deminishing returns on second damage mod) =44 then you calculate its damage profile shields = (441.20)1.15 = 61.40 damage against shields (including proficiancy) armor = 44*.80 = 35.59 against armor Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 249	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:44:00 - [4] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. Commando skill applies first (as it's just a flat damage bonus) and it only applies to laser weapons. Scr proficiency and warbarge proficiency apply last. The krins apply in the middle and have a stacking penalty. So [basedmg] * [commando skill] * [damage mod1(stackingpenaltycheck)] [damagemod2(stackingpenalty check)] = final 'damage', which is then modified by weapon profile. [weapon profile] [proficiency skill(when applicable)] * [warbarge bonus(if applicable)]. A proto weapon will still start out 10% ahead of a mlt weapon. When i applied these Krins on the loadout screen there was no penalty...
chill penguin Bragian Order 132	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:47:00 - [5] - Quote ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. Commando skill applies first (as it's just a flat damage bonus) and it only applies to laser weapons. Scr proficiency and warbarge proficiency apply last. The krins apply in the middle and have a stacking penalty. So [basedmg] * [commando skill] * [damage mod1(stackingpenaltycheck)] [damagemod2(stackingpenalty check)] = final 'damage', which is then modified by weapon profile. [weapon profile] [proficiency skill(when applicable)] * [warbarge bonus(if applicable)]. A proto weapon will still start out 10% ahead of a mlt weapon. When i applied these Krins on the loadout screen there was no penalty... Because CCP likes to surprise people. It does indeed have a penalty. A True Slayer can only be born in the pits of Molden Heath
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:48:00 - [6] - Quote So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons.
ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 255	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:51:00 - [7] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons. It's an Economical point of view so you don't have to be spending so much ISK.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:52:00 - [8] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. Commando skill applies first (as bonuses apply highest to lowest, unpenalized to penalized) and it only applies to laser weapons. The krins damage mods apply next and have a stacking penalty because all percentile modules have a stacking penalty except for the jump speed portion of myo's which is bugged and yet to be fixed. Scr proficiency and warbarge proficiency apply last as they're not part of the actual damage formula, but they modify the profile portion. So [basedmg] * [commando skill] * [damage mod1(stackingpenaltycheck)] [damagemod2(stackingpenalty check)] = final 'damage', which is then modified by weapon profile. [weapon profile] [proficiency skill(when applicable)] * [warbarge bonus(if applicable)]. A proto weapon will still start out 10% ahead of a mlt weapon. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties is a handy link just for figuring out individual damage mod values. But in short what you're getting is 38 * 1.06 * 1.04(1.0) * [1.04(~.87) = 1.0348] = 43.349 43.349 [1.20 * 1.15 * 1.05] = 62.812 vs shield or 43.349 * [.8 * 1.05] = 36.41 vs armor You get 2.5x damage off of a charged scr shot. Yes the OP calculated it incorrectly, but the order in which you apply the modifiers makes no difference.
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:52:00 - [9] - Quote ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: When i applied these Krins on the loadout screen there was no penalty... It also says they only apply to sidearms too so why would you be fitting them if you're just going off what the screen says? the screen is wrong, like literally from day 1 it has been wrong about damage mods and it in particular is wrong about krins which apply to light, heavy and sidearms. There are some things the screen works for, but it's wrong (OR REALLY LIKES TO ROUND) for other things. Flaylock description says it homes on things too, but we all know that's wrong. The magsec description says it's a semi-auto silenced weapon and that is also wrong. A lot of descriptions of things in this game are wrong. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:55:00 - [10] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Yes the OP calculated it incorrectly, but the order in which you apply the modifiers makes no difference. Yes and no. if you start throwing proficiency into the middle of damage it mucks with things. When having different values on damage mods like 7% and 4%, it'll apply the penalty to the less good module. Once everything has actually been worked out as long as you're applying the correct things in the correct places (like handling profile separately from other stuff) it won't make a difference. I like to do the math in a way that's easy to read and intuitive because I used to program and it was a habit I got into. It also makes it easier to explain to people. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 296	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:56:00 - [11] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons. He is right! Also, going into dmg mods, you will be more versatile with weapons than spending the millions of SP to max out a weapon. Also, like you said, proto weapons tend to have minimal impact to damage increases, but things like heat, clip size, and ROF tend to be way better on proto over mlt. the scrambler is sort of in a weird place where the prot variant IMO has less impact, but the LR for sure changes a lot. For round based weapons it is the dispersion you really feel as well. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 255	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:57:00 - [12] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: When i applied these Krins on the loadout screen there was no penalty... It also says they only apply to sidearms too so why would you be fitting them if you're just going off what the screen says? the screen is wrong, like literally from day 1 it has been wrong about damage mods and it in particular is wrong about krins which apply to light, heavy and sidearms. There are some things the screen works for, but it's wrong (OR REALLY LIKES TO ROUND) for other things. Flaylock description says it homes on things too, but we all know that's wrong. The magsec description says it's a semi-auto silenced weapon and that is also wrong. A lot of descriptions of things in this game are wrong. Because I know the mod applies to all weapons, but the fact that CCP didn't add the penalty to their new stats display, is like they just added it for sake of it, because we wanted to know our loadout stats fully...
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:01:00 - [13] - Quote ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: It's an Economical point of view so you don't have to be spending so much ISK. If you are referring to using Krin's instead of enhanced damage mods, I agree. If you are referring to using proto weapons, the effects of damage bonuses need to be applied to the proto weapons as well. This actually works against your argument as a proto weapon will gain more damage from a mod than a lower tier weapon would.
ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 255	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:11:00 - [14] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: It's an Economical point of view so you don't have to be spending so much ISK. If you are referring to using Krin's instead of enhanced damage mods, I agree. If you are referring to using proto weapons, the effects of damage bonuses need to be applied to the proto weapons as well. This actually works against your argument as a proto weapon will gain more damage from a mod than a lower tier weapon would. Though Proto weapons are expensive than Militia & adding all the Damage Modifiers onto the militia version would make it a cheaper way of killing your opponents, no matter how many kills you get you get on average 150k ISK & since i'm using APEX suits i only need to buy the weapon which costs 550 ISK.
Viktor Hadah Jr 0uter.Heaven 9	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:15:00 - [15] - Quote can we buff them please. Vote Viktor Hadah for CPM2 or i'll hurt you. I'm kind of a big deal. Get Dust ISK Here
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:18:00 - [16] - Quote To Mina: With the exception of the stacking penalty [1+(0.04*0.87)], the order makes no difference to the final result. I agree it affects ease of understanding though. To Balistyc: Weapon tier only affects damage. Except to militia weapons which have smaller clips, and some exceptions: Nova knives have shorter charge. Mass drivers have larger splash. Can't think of any more. Can't remember about laser rifles.
A1ZEN AKUMA 0	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:19:00 - [17] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. you do know that damage mods dont have a stacking penalty anymore its displayed on your dropsuit stats
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:22:00 - [18] - Quote ThePlayerkyle13 wrote: Though Proto weapons are expensive than Militia & adding all the Damage Modifiers onto the militia version would make it a cheaper way of killing your opponents, no matter how many kills you get you get on average 150k ISK & since i'm using APEX suits i only need to buy the weapon which costs 550 ISK. Your isk payout is determined by your warpoints (relative to the rest of your team) and the isk value of stuff destroyed in the match, along with the amount of time you've spent in the match. Every match has a base payout pool (I don't know the exact values for these), and then the isk value of things destroyed are added to the pool, plus 3000isk per clone. (In pc clone values are much higher, but I cant remember what their value is). Winning team gets 60% of the payout pool, divided among members, losers get 40% of the pool. So if there was say, 10million isk of stuff destroyed in a match and 200 clones lost, the pool size would be 11.2mil Winners would get 6.72m to divide up, and the losers would get 4.48m to divide up. I am not sure how the actual breakup of pot based on WP's works, but having much higher relative values will earn you a great payout. If you earned 3000 warpoints to the rest of your team's cumulative ~1000, you can be damn sure that you're probably going to be over 1m isk in earnings for that battle. So it really depends on what you do, what you destroy and how long you're in match if you want a good payout. My averages are around 200k when I'm playing pubs. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:24:00 - [19] - Quote A1ZEN AKUMA wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: That's not how it works. You're adding things wrong and not accounting for stacking penalty. you do know that damage mods dont have a stacking penalty anymore its displayed on your dropsuit stats You are wrong, flat out wrong. They have never removed the stacking penalty and if they were to do so it would be something that's so incredibly well documented you could source it in a heartbeat. Just like how I can source the exact math of stacking penalties. Formula Dust 514 also uses the same formula as EVE, shown below: S(n) = 0.5^[((n-1) / 2.22292081) ^2] n = the nth module added S = stacking effect for this particular module addition Module bonuses are ordered from highest to lowest, thus giving you the maximum bonus. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:27:00 - [20] - Quote There isn't really that much point in upgrading to a fitting expensive proto weapon for a large sum of ISK when you could use an ADV weapon and get just 5% reduced damage. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:30:00 - [21] - Quote Ok, I'm having a hard time following your maths. Mostly because GODDAMN FIND A BETTER LAYOUT!!! Ok first up: Skill bonuses do not count towards stacking penalties. This includes the commando 10%. The first stacking penalty comes with the second mod. period. Second: the difference between the duvolle and the Militia is... 597 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. The Duvolle is... 677 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. That's a difference of 100 DPS. that can make or break an attack as far as difference in efficiency goes I have a spreadsheet that I can simply plug in whatever rifle damage values I want and it will crap out the final DPS. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:45:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Second: the difference between the duvolle and the Militia is... 597 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. The Duvolle is... 677 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. That's a difference of 100 DPS. that can make or break an attack as far as difference in efficiency goes I have a spreadsheet that I can simply plug in whatever rifle damage values I want and it will crap out the final DPS. Are you sure this is correct? I though proto weapons were just 10% more powerful. This is more like a 12% difference.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.14 14:48:00 - [23] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Second: the difference between the duvolle and the Militia is... 597 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. The Duvolle is... 677 DPS v. Shields at max skill with three complex damage mods on an assault. That's a difference of 100 DPS. that can make or break an attack as far as difference in efficiency goes I have a spreadsheet that I can simply plug in whatever rifle damage values I want and it will crap out the final DPS. Are you sure this is correct? I though proto weapons were just 10% more powerful. This is more like a 12% difference. The higher the base damage, the more a multiplier increases the damage. it's basic arithmetic. Militia starts at 30, ends at 44.8 damage per bullet. Duvolle starts at 34, ends at 50.77 damage/bullet the difference adds up quick when you sh*t them out at a rate of 600+/minute WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:13:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The higher the base damage, the more a multiplier increases the damage. it's basic arithmetic. Militia starts at 30, ends at 44.8 damage per bullet. Duvolle starts at 34, ends at 50.77 damage/bullet the difference adds up quick when you sht them out at a rate of 600+/minute I was talking about the percentage* dps increase with tier, so the modifiers and rate of fire make no difference (as they are the same across tiers). But your explanation does illustrate the reason. 34 damage per shot is 13% more damage than 30. So a Duvolle will do 13% more dps than a militia AR. 597*1.13 = 675 dps. Which is about what you said, 677 dps. Presumably the extra 2dps is due to rounding.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:19:00 - [25] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The higher the base damage, the more a multiplier increases the damage. it's basic arithmetic. Militia starts at 30, ends at 44.8 damage per bullet. Duvolle starts at 34, ends at 50.77 damage/bullet the difference adds up quick when you sht them out at a rate of 600+/minute I was talking about the percentage* dps increase with tier, so the modifiers and rate of fire make no difference (as they are the same across tiers). But your explanation does illustrate the reason. 34 damage per shot is 13% more damage than 30. So a Duvolle will do 13% more dps than a militia AR. 597*1.13 = 675 dps. Which is about what you said, 677 dps. Presumably the extra 2dps is due to rounding. 676.9200533 is the exact three-mod Shield DPS of the duvolle. 597.2824 is the exact three-mod Shield DPS of the militia WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 399	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:28:00 - [26] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons. You're giving up a high slot to make your ADV a Proto. basically, is it worth the health loss just to make a cheaper weapon 5%-8% more effective? Even with the HMG who has the best stacking for DPS with it's insane RoF - you're better off tanking.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:32:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: 676.9200533 is the exact three-mod Shield DPS of the duvolle. 597.2824 is the exact three-mod Shield DPS of the militia That's great. 34/30 = 1.133333333 1.133333333 * 597.2824 = 676.9200533 So a proto AR is 13.3% (to 1 d.p.) more powerful than militia. 30*1.133 = 34 (rounded). This makes sense. Damage modifiers, proficiency, etc. don't come into it. I was wrong when I thought it was only a 10% increase. Proto is more powerful than I thought. Makes me feel better about getting owned.
Louis Domi Tugastroy Evil Syndicate Alliance. 978	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:40:00 - [28] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons. I'd rather have a proto weapon than damage mods. Why? The way it feels after my target gets killed by a proto weapon makes me harder than a steel pipe about to slam into a whores forehead. gets me all tingly on the inside.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:41:00 - [29] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: So, I think what you are saying is, given the choice between damage mods or a proto weapon, it's best to go for damage mods. I completely agree with this, not to mention the much higher cost of proto weapons. For new players I definitely advise skilling up modules and fitting before going straight to pro weapons. And even then, the weapons skills are mainly good for unlocking proficiency, rather than actually using pro weapons. As for them being pointless, ask yourself this. How about damage mods and proto weapons together? So you see, they aren't pointless if you have good fitting space. Also, you want to get complex damage mods on that commando. Or atleast, enhanced would be better than Krin's, since you have dual light weapons. You're giving up a high slot to make your ADV a Proto. basically, is it worth the health loss just to make a cheaper weapon 5%-8% more effective? Even with the HMG who has the best stacking for DPS with it's insane RoF - you're better off tanking. The assumption was the high slot would be left empty when using the proto weapon, due to fitting constraints. At least that's what I thought in order for the OP to make sense. With the increased number of slots on standard gear, this is a valid point for any newer players who may feel that getting a proto weapon is the best way to upgrade their fit. It's also worth noting, that whilst you can beef up suits with PG and CPU upgrades, any upgrade in effectiveness will come with a heavy price increase. But yes, often damage mods aren't the best option. Though the Krin'S damage mod is pretty good, being free.
Count- -Crotchula Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 127	Posted - 2015.07.14 16:52:00 - [30] - Quote use both, viziam and 3 complex damage mods but be prepared to be called a cheater. is it worth it? depends how much hatred you're willing to endure.



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