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Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.06 15:40:00 - [1] - Quote We are about to see some significant buffs to all apex suits. So i made it easy for you and post the stat changes for each suit. Please remember that these stats do not include any skills so its raw stat changes: -Amarr "opus" assault: -1PG and +11CPU -Amarr "seraph" logistics: +4PG and +26CPU -Amarr "Dragon" scout: +16PG and +39CPU -Amarr "Dominus" sentinel: +14PG and +24CPU -Amarr "paladin" commando: +1PG and +13 CPU Caldari suit lineup: -Caldari "Rasetsu" assault: +5PG and 13CPU -Caldari "kampo" logistics: +15PG and -6CPU -Caldari "hawk" scout: +13PG and +30 CPU Caldari "shogun" sentinel: +1PG and +31CPU Caldari "samurai" commando: +39CPU Gallente suit lineup: -Gallente "spartan" assault: +12 PG and +34CPU Gallente "charon" logistics: +7PG and +7CPU gallente "serpent" scout: +10PG and +12CPU gallente "atlas" sentinel: +4PG and +22CPU gallente "centurion" commando: +19PG and -3 CPU Minmatarr suit lineup: -Minmatarr "nomad" assault: +3PG and +17CPU -Minmatarr "shaman" logistics: +17CPU -Minmatarr "tiger" scout: +7PG and +41CPU -Minmatarr "warlord" sentinel: +14PG and +31CPU -Minmatarr "Renegade" commando: +51CPU As you can see all suits are going to be quite a bit better to fit. If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.06 15:46:00 - [2] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
postapo wastelander Corrosive Synergy No Context 1	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:41:00 - [3] - Quote I see not issues there too. Agree with Adipem boyko :j "Caller of the Monolith"
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3	Posted - 2015.07.06 17:27:00 - [4] - Quote Huh, is that so? After reading the Dev Blog I was under the impression that Apex stats might be under the nerf hammer.... A buff you say!? "Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 7	Posted - 2015.07.06 17:32:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. Except that fact that one comes prefitted. "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 317	Posted - 2015.07.06 17:40:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. You don't see the problem with a free suit being better then STD?.............................
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:37:00 - [7] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Huh, is that so? After reading the Dev Blog I was under the impression that Apex stats might be under the nerf hammer.... A buff you say!? When you go to your fitting screen you see the suits fitting with all skills in effect. To know their original PG+CPU you have to press triangle on them and go to the stat chart. You can do the math by yourself by adding 5%PG+CPU from dropsuit core upgrades and then +25%PG/CPU from engineering and electronics. Then you get the new max values for your suit. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:47:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. But dose that not make the BPO suits irrelevant? When APEX was introduced they were better quality BPO's, but they had the drawback that you could not change the fittings. Now if APEX suits are better than BPO's in every way, what is the point of the BPO's? Where is the tradeoff? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:54:00 - [9] - Quote once the changes go hot, there will be little/no functional difference between apex and standard BPOs. APEX suits PG/CPU is being brought up to match STD. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2015.07.06 19:08:00 - [10] - Quote Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I didn't want to compare each individual suit myself.

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.06 19:24:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: once the changes go hot, there will be little/no functional difference between apex and standard BPOs. APEX suits PG/CPU is being brought up to match STD. Erm not they are creeping up to ADV fitting lvls. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 59	Posted - 2015.07.06 22:03:00 - [12] - Quote Again as a new player these suits are an idiots idea..... Nothing like guys who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by running up to you right? Newplayers really love having the guys who suck and cant afford proto anymore just killing your suits off of you in a suit that is free and better than anything available to them. Seriously, did anyone spend anytime in developing this game to attract new players at all?
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:40:00 - [13] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. What, properly fitted the current (old) APEXes were between ADV and PRO in power! surely you don't want that. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.07.07 03:50:00 - [14] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: We are about to see some significant buffs to all apex suits. So i made it easy for you and post the stat changes for each suit. Please remember that these stats do not include any skills so its raw stat changes: Amarr APEX Suit Changes Amarr "Opus" Assault: +11CPU / -1PG Amarr "Seraph" Logistics: +26CPU / +4PG Amarr "Dragon" Scout: +39CPU / +16PG Amarr "Dominus" Sentinel: +24CPU / +14PG Amarr "Paladin" Commando: +13CPU / +1PG Caldari APEX Suit Changes Caldari "Rasetsu" Assault: +13CPU / +5PG Caldari "Kampo" Logistics: -6CPU / +15PG Caldari "Hawk" Scout: +30CPU / +13PG Caldari "Shogun" Sentinel: +31CPU / +1PG Caldari "Samurai" Commando: +39CPU / +0PG Gallente APEX Suit Changes Gallente "Spartan" Assault: +34CPU / +12PG Gallente "Charon" Logistics: +7CPU / +7PG Gallente "Serpent" Scout: +12CPU / +10PG Gallente "Atlas" Sentinel: +22CPU / +4PG Gallente "Centurion" Commando: +19CPU / -3PG Minmatarr APEX Suit Changes: Minmatarr "Nomad" Assault: +17CPU / +3PG Minmatarr "Shaman" Logistics: +17CPU / +0PG Minmatarr "Tiger" Scout: +41CPU / +7PG Minmatarr "Warlord" Sentinel: +31CPU / +14PG Minmatarr "Renegade" Commando: +51CPU / +0PG "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 04:03:00 - [15] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: . . A list full awesome! . . That is a big big thing. Mad Kudos to cloud to finding out. This quote from the dev blog Quote: In addition, we will be making APEX dropsuits tradable, and will be adjusting their PG/CPU in accordance with their power level, which was meant to be between STD and ADV in power: Was interpreted as a signal that APEX suits are too powerful now, ranking between ADV and PRO. From that viewpoint, the quote makes perfect sense. From viewpoint that the APEXes would be too weak and not exceeding STD level... Mindboggling. And untrue. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.07 06:44:00 - [16] - Quote Update: edited the OP to be easier to read. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 25	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:38:00 - [17] - Quote Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.07 10:58:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Maybe next time if you are juggling with PG/CPU values do it like i did in my post. Clean and easy to understand values of +/- compared to what we have before the patch. Its deffo easier to understand then comparing the chart with raw numbers and then go into the game to compare it by yourself. I believe when changes are happening on Eve they do it similar where you can see instantly the changes. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 25	Posted - 2015.07.07 11:09:00 - [19] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Maybe next time if you are juggling with PG/CPU values do it like i did in my post. Clean and easy to understand values of +/- compared to what we have before the patch. Its deffo easier to understand then comparing the chart with raw numbers and then go into the game to compare it by yourself. I believe when changes are happening on Eve they do it similar where you can see instantly the changes. We have always done that, just a time constraint in this case. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Back and Forth 8	Posted - 2015.07.07 11:19:00 - [20] - Quote I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Vote Viktor Hadah for CPM2 or i'll hurt you. I'm kind of a big deal. Get Dust ISK Here

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 13:07:00 - [21] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Agree, the apex suits are the worst offender, basically the opposite of what New Eden is all about. PSN: RationalSpark
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:37:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Rattati, didn't you yourself say that APEX suits were performing better than expected and their fittings reached power level between ADV and PRO? KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:39:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Doesn't that mean that BPOs are now redundant? Many of them are also AUR BPOs. Hard equasion. Do you know what breaks it and makes them impossible to balance? APEX tunability, ability to modify them. It really has to go. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:44:00 - [24] - Quote please use better context in your sentences. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:46:00 - [25] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Doesn't that mean that BPOs are now redundant? Many of them are also AUR BPOs. Hard equasion. Do you know what breaks it and makes them impossible to balance? APEX tunability, ability to modify them. It really has to go. Agree, the only reason they were acceptable(actually not acceptable at all, imo) in the first place was the locked loadout. PSN: RationalSpark
Dzago Sevatarion DUST University Ivy League 54	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:55:00 - [26] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Agree, the apex suits are the worst offender, basically the opposite of what New Eden is all about. There are BPOs in EVE...
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:01:00 - [27] - Quote Dzago Sevatarion wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Agree, the apex suits are the worst offender, basically the opposite of what New Eden is all about. There are BPOs in EVE... You know nothing Jon Snow. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:16:00 - [28] - Quote Dzago Sevatarion wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Agree, the apex suits are the worst offender, basically the opposite of what New Eden is all about. There are BPOs in EVE... Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts. WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:18:00 - [29] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ I agree. I would rather that a BPO allowed you to recycle material from other salvaged items to create the suit you wanted. But when BPO's were released DUST did not have a crafting system. Maybe someday. There is an RP explanation for DUST BPO's however: You can think of a BPO as an "All you can eat" deal from a Dropsuit manufacturer. They gamble that because you will progress past Standard suits, the total costs of all the copies of the Standard BPO suit you lose in battle will be less than what you paid for the BPO. The manufacturer will lose out on some dedicated BPO users, but a lot of the other people who bought BPO's will just hang them in the closet and almost never use them. I own lots of BPO's that are not even being used in my current 30 fittings. It is like you pay for 2000 copies of the Dropsuit. If you only die 950 times in that dropsuit, then the manufacturer makes a huge profit. If you die in that suit 2020 times the manufacturer takes a small loss. If most BPO deals are profitable, they will cover the few that are losses. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:45:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Maybe next time if you are juggling with PG/CPU values do it like i did in my post. Clean and easy to understand values of +/- compared to what we have before the patch. Its deffo easier to understand then comparing the chart with raw numbers and then go into the game to compare it by yourself. I believe when changes are happening on Eve they do it similar where you can see instantly the changes. We have always done that, just a time constraint in this case. On the subject of PG/CPU, the standard Amarr assault and standard Amarr sentinel have received a reduction in PG/CPU from the patch. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 185	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:47:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Dzago Sevatarion wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Agree, the apex suits are the worst offender, basically the opposite of what New Eden is all about. There are BPOs in EVE... Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts. WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS Yes but what it would take to make one ship would probably equal a near lifetime supply of suit BPOs making it redundant to not be infinite Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit rank 10 winmataar
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:53:00 - [32] - Quote Using the justification of "because EVE" or alternately "because f*ck EVE" is chuckleworthy at best. For almost everything. "This violates lore with a rusty pogo stick" might be more credible. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.07 17:02:00 - [33] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. Except for the fact that it fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole and now that we have the beginnings of tiericide shows the rather painfully obvious truth about that. APEXs only ever got out the gate because they were pre-fitted and couldn't be customized (anyone remember CCP saying 'they're not OP because they can't be customized'?) but when they became customizable, they overshadowed BPOs entirely and everyone wanted them (even though there are some of us who feel even the BPOs shouldn't have existed). Now that all the suits have the same slots the APEXs -SHOULD- by all rights have been turned into just typical BPOs to restore that balance in power creep but because players feel they got gypped on their value (because why wouldn't they? You provided them a golden nugget) we have to figure out a way to make them - holy **** - better than typical BPOs again. So, yet again, you have an absolutely 100% free, customizable base, that overshadows and fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole, which already devalue and overshadow standard ISK suits. Like, the logic here is confounding. EDIT: For the record, the only reason I ever even -started- to like APEX BPOs having prototype slots is because we were getting the beginnings of tiericide and -all- suits were fixing to get the same slots anyway. But now that they'll have an edge on Standard power-level suits.... We're right back to the same freaggin mess. BPOs should have -never- been more powerful than Militia, let alone Standard. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
JIMvc2 Consolidated Dust 1	Posted - 2015.07.07 17:09:00 - [34] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ I've seen how common the Apex dropsuits are. I have a Cal Assault Apex, Gal Scout, Gallmando, and Logistics. Why did the white girl cross the road? To get to Starbucks. <-- My GF will kill me if I ask her that lol :)
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 17:15:00 - [35] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Except for the fact that it fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole and now that we have the beginnings of tiericide shows the rather painfully obvious truth about that. APEXs only ever got out the gate because they were pre-fitted and couldn't be customized (anyone remember CCP saying 'they're not OP because they can't be customized'?) but when they became customizable, they overshadowed BPOs entirely and everyone wanted them (even though there are some of us who feel even the BPOs shouldn't have existed). Now that all the suits have the same slots the APEXs -SHOULD- by all rights have been turned into just typical BPOs to restore that balance in power creep but because players feel they got gypped on their value (because why wouldn't they? You provided them a golden nugget) we have to figure out a way to make them - holy **** - better than typical BPOs again. So, yet again, you have an absolutely 100% free, customizable base, that overshadows and fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole, which already devalue and overshadow standard ISK suits. Like, the logic here is confounding. EDIT: For the record, the only reason I ever even -started- to like APEX BPOs having prototype slots is because we were getting the beginnings of tiericide and -all- suits were fixing to get the same slots anyway. But now that they'll have an edge on Standard power-level suits.... We're right back to the same freaggin mess. BPOs should have -never- been more powerful than Militia, let alone Standard. +1000. I'm backin Aeon on this. I believe APEX suits were a greatest business move of 2014 for Dust. I believe also that it wast the biggest and most atrocious design mistake within two year period, considering the health and future design of the game. I absolutely remember the reasoning why the APEX suits were locked and that's why community accepted them, even those not overly fond of idea of using them themselves. I remember how community was crowdsourced to design balanced fits with rules not to do extreme power combos, like brick tanking. I remember how the during the initial deployment there was a big which made APEXes adjustable. CCP was embarrassed and fixed them in few days - but the idea and powerful feeling of that modificability remained. And the repeating requests for modificability finally endured (probably with average AUR APEX sales). KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Dzago Sevatarion Dust University Ivy League 54	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:11:00 - [36] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts. WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS They're not the same game, why would they actualize concepts the same way? We have officer weapons, EVE has implants. They're both an attempt at giving some weight to death beyond ISK. (Each has its own shortcomings in accomplishing this goal, mind.)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:19:00 - [37] - Quote Dzago Sevatarion wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts. WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS They're not the same game, why would they actualize concepts the same way? We have officer weapons, EVE has implants. They're both an attempt at giving some weight to death beyond ISK. (Each has its own shortcomings in accomplishing this goal, mind.) Regardless of whether or not they should or should not be the same, borrow elements from one another, or be completely bereft of one another - BPOs AND APEXs betray the core game design of Dust 514 which is the 'Endless Cycle'. This used to be all the rage back when Dust 514 actually had marketing but I'll give everyone a refresher of what that core game design was: - You fight. You earn ISK. - You use ISK to buy gear. - You use that gear to fight. BPOs of -any- type throw a pipe wrench in that entire core and provide a fundamental exception toward that game design. Militia BPOs would be fine because they have higher PG/CPU costs than standard gear, often are far worse, etc. They provide you something to fall back on in the eventuality that you go broke from excessive spending and losses. Standard BPOs and APEXs only provide power creep and devalue not only the equipment and gear they're designed to permanently replace but the core structure of the War Based Economy that this game has been founded upon. The only backing BPOs and APEXs have is that "they help new players stay afloat" - but that is a fallacy because that was the entire point of Militia BPOs and Starter Fits. BPOs and APEX suits serve no other purpose than to pull in revenue for CCP and to institute rampant power creep. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 857	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:22:00 - [38] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/ Well, when this game was first conceived, Eve players were going to be the market makers. They were going to offer the contracts and sponsorships and materials. It just seems silly to have an all NPC market if it runs on NPC payouts. CCP Rattati > Humble pie is the worst late night snack. >
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2015.07.07 21:39:00 - [39] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Dzago Sevatarion wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts. WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS They're not the same game, why would they actualize concepts the same way? We have officer weapons, EVE has implants. They're both an attempt at giving some weight to death beyond ISK. (Each has its own shortcomings in accomplishing this goal, mind.) Regardless of whether or not they should or should not be the same, borrow elements from one another, or be completely bereft of one another - BPOs AND APEXs betray the core game design of Dust 514 which is the 'Endless Cycle'. This used to be all the rage back when Dust 514 actually had marketing but I'll give everyone a refresher of what that core game design was: - You fight. You earn ISK. - You use ISK to buy gear. - You use that gear to fight. BPOs of -any- type throw a pipe wrench in that entire core and provide a fundamental exception toward that game design. Militia BPOs would be fine because they have higher PG/CPU costs than standard gear, often are far worse, etc. They provide you something to fall back on in the eventuality that you go broke from excessive spending and losses. Standard BPOs and APEXs only provide power creep and devalue not only the equipment and gear they're designed to permanently replace but the core structure of the War Based Economy that this game has been founded upon. The only backing BPOs and APEXs have is that "they help new players stay afloat" - but that is a fallacy because that was the entire point of Militia BPOs and Starter Fits. BPOs and APEX suits serve no other purpose than to pull in revenue for CCP and to institute rampant power creep. I'm sorry but I disagree with you. You seem to be implying that this is purely an exercise in game-world ideals. In a perfect world I might agree with you. The purist gamers would win out and the concept of purity you're endorsing would have merit. However, that still implies that your method of playing the game is the only one that is valid. Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and this game is also a business. Businesses have to make money. No game survives on the purist, hardcore players. Casual players don't come into that kind of game as a new player because it's not in any way enjoyable to just get stomped time after time after time. In a game with something to lose, the majority of those players will just migrate away to a game that is less punishing and eventually Dust will just die its death because the hardcore "this is the only proper way to do it, clawing up from nothing until you stand on the top of a pile of your enemies corpses" players just aren't enough. Sure, that's one way to play, but damn is it a slog. Some people get their kicks from that kind of adversity. Many people are completely put off. CCP's model created a way that a casual player could invest cash to be have better gear than the minimum standard and significantly worse than the top standard. I can see it from your side, but I can also see the guy who works two jobs and takes care of his disabled kids getting a couple of hours a week in of a game he wants to enjoy but can't because he just can't invest the time required to get that kind of gear. If the reply to that is that this game isn't for him, then I am severely disappointed in the whole community for being exclusive and elitist. I get that the guy that's worked hard for his proto gear feels that an unlimited supply of suits is a bit harsh, but quite frankly, they're better than the free stuff, but much much worse than top tier by design so I really don't see the problem. So by all means condemn CCP for daring to have a clever way of making money that doesn't render the game pay-to-win, as the suits are still far from top-tier; but to me you're just condemning the people who actually pay the money that keeps the game running, as well as displaying elitism.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.07.07 22:07:00 - [40] - Quote Though APEXes may well be thematically in complete opposition to everything New Eden is about and may well devalue any concept of loss, they make CCP money. Further expansions or at least very attentive care from CCP should be expected. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.07 22:26:00 - [41] - Quote Krias Thracian wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree with you. You seem to be implying that this is purely an exercise in game-world ideals. In a perfect world I might agree with you. The purist gamers would win out and the concept of purity you're endorsing would have merit. However, that still implies that your method of playing the game is the only one that is valid. Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and this game is also a business. Businesses have to make money. No game survives on the purist, hardcore players. Casual players don't come into that kind of game as a new player because it's not in any way enjoyable to just get stomped time after time after time. In a game with something to lose, the majority of those players will just migrate away to a game that is less punishing and eventually Dust will just die its death because the hardcore "this is the only proper way to do it, clawing up from nothing until you stand on the top of a pile of your enemies corpses" players just aren't enough. Sure, that's one way to play, but damn is it a slog. Some people get their kicks from that kind of adversity. Many people are completely put off. CCP's model created a way that a casual player could invest cash to be have better gear than the minimum standard and significantly worse than the top standard. I can see it from your side, but I can also see the guy who works two jobs and takes care of his disabled kids getting a couple of hours a week in of a game he wants to enjoy but can't because he just can't invest the time required to get that kind of gear. If the reply to that is that this game isn't for him, then I am severely disappointed in the whole community for being exclusive and elitist. I get that the guy that's worked hard for his proto gear feels that an unlimited supply of suits is a bit harsh, but quite frankly, they're better than the free stuff, but much much worse than top tier by design so I really don't see the problem. So by all means condemn CCP for daring to have a clever way of making money that doesn't render the game pay-to-win, as the suits are still far from top-tier; but to me you're just condemning the people who actually pay the money that keeps the game running, as well as displaying elitism. "CCP has to make money" This is the biggest fallacy because CCP can make money off of Boosters, SKINs, and normal BPOs. Had APEX suits not been introduced, this argument wouldn't stand because that was the same argument applied to BPOs prior to their introduction. APEX suits are simply a higher priced variant of BPOs that further impact the overall design and balance of the game through power creep. Why use Militia when Militia BPOs are free? Why use a Militia BPO when a Standard BPO is better? Why use a Standard BPO when an APEX is better? "Casuals can't enjoy the game without APEX suits" Largely the same argument as BPOs. You start out with free, Starter fits that never go away. You can purchase Militia BPOs, you can purchase Standard BPOs - why do you need the APEX? Because it isn't competitive? That is a fundamental flaw of power-level based design and exactly why we want Tiericide to begin with. "This game isn't for him is the wrong approach" I don't disagree, but I also don't think that is a proper justification for destroying the core design philosophy of the game or impacting the potential economy through a ham-fisted attempt to make the game better for him. Even still, there are much better alternatives. "Much better than the free stuff, much worse than the top tier by far" This isn't the case anymore, now that we have similar slot layouts across all tiers, hence why APEX now has to be more powerful because they are the pipe wrench in tiericide, not the other way around. "By all means condemn CCP for a clever way to make money that isn't pay-to-win" Actually, it kind of is - unless you spend exorbitant amounts of time grinding out FW for those very same suits. Which if the argument is that these suits are for new players, we're expecting those new players to go broke (because there are no ISK rewards in FW!!!!) in order to get them. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.07 22:32:00 - [42] - Quote On a STD vs APEX fit I did fittings on (and played both) using a standard assault G-1 and a Spartan APEX. I used standard plates. Get over it. But after fitting both with 100% STD (identical) mods and an ADV breach AR, I continued tweaking the APEX. upgraded the three STD platesto ADV and promptly ran out of fitting space. The difference between the two? About 100 HP. Performance in match? Ran solidly positive with both fits. Within decimel points of KD rating of each other. So bluntly anyone saying that APEX makes STD pointless or that STD BPOS have no place have THOROUGHLY lost their damn marbles. APEX aren't going to be removed from the game. CCP is funding the game with them. Ranting about APEX suits isn't going to get Rattati to remove them no matter how hard you wish for it. APEX provide no massive benefit over STD BPOs except being able to tack on a couple mods that suck less. The ranting about them is what I expect if you could fully proto fit them. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2015.07.07 22:45:00 - [43] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: "CCP has to make money" This is the biggest fallacy because CCP can make money off of Boosters, SKINs, and normal BPOs. Had APEX suits not been introduced, this argument wouldn't stand because that was the same argument applied to BPOs prior to their introduction. APEX suits are simply a higher priced variant of BPOs that further impact the overall design and balance of the game through power creep. Businesses need to have constant and new streams of revenue. Businesses that no longer generate new revenue streams die. Pure and simple, it's why there's a new Fifa game or COD game or iPhone every couple of years. If they don't do it then they stagnate. As a result it's not a fallacy, it's an absolute necessity. They cannot just rely on Boosters etc. and the suits apply to a different audience. I couldn't give a flying fig about SKINS or Boosters, they just get me there a little faster. I'll pay some money for a BPO so I don't have to spend hours of my time grinding for gear as I'm just not that good a player and I'll freely admit it. That's what it takes away, the grind and I see no problem with that. Aeon Amadi wrote: Why use Militia when Militia BPOs are free? Why use a Militia BPO when a Standard BPO is better? Why use a Standard BPO when an APEX is better? In Order: Because you may not want to spend real cash to get the militia BPO. Because you may only have a certain amount of cash to spend. See above. These three things cater to three different levels of casual/veteran player and therefore all have merit depending on who you are and how you want to play the game. Someone keeps going on about people play the game how they want to play it. Aeon Amadi wrote: "Casuals can't enjoy the game without APEX suits" Largely the same argument as BPOs. You start out with free, Starter fits that never go away. You can purchase Militia BPOs, you can purchase Standard BPOs - why do you need the APEX? Because it isn't competitive? That is a fundamental flaw of power-level based design and exactly why we want Tiericide to begin with. I don't disagree, but part of what makes the game what it is is the fitting and actually having differences. I wouldn't want to see the game reduced to a Halo-clone, but nor do I think the massive disparities that exist between proto and std should exist either. If tiericide gets there then that's fine, but then something else needs to be thought of for people who've put not insignificant sums of money into it. Aeon Amadi wrote: "This game isn't for him is the wrong approach" I don't disagree, but I also don't think that is a proper justification for destroying the core design philosophy of the game or impacting the potential economy through a ham-fisted attempt to make the game better for him. Even still, there are much better alternatives. I couldn't disagree more, I think it's the best reason to destroy what you are referring to as the "core design philosophy" because if that is what the result of that philosophy was, then the philosophy was wrong to begin with. If you can't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Aeon Amadi wrote: "Much better than the free stuff, much worse than the top tier by far" This isn't the case anymore, now that we have similar slot layouts across all tiers, hence why APEX now has to be more powerful because they are the pipe wrench in tiericide, not the other way around. "By all means condemn CCP for a clever way to make money that isn't pay-to-win" Actually, it kind of is - unless you spend exorbitant amounts of time grinding out FW for those very same suits. Which if the argument is that these suits are for new players, we're expecting those new players to go broke (because there are no ISK rewards in FW!!!!) in order to get them. Again, in order as quote limit: Rattati is on this forum thread stating they should be above STD but below ADV in overall power. If they aren't then they need tweaking, but as intended, they are way behind top-tier. Whether they are or not in actuality is another matter, and maybe they need adjustment, but as intended, I see no problems. Certainly not the problems you are claiming. No, it's not pay to win, because those suits are not top tier, or even close to them. Pay to win would be if they were absolutely top of the line and nothing could top them. They are a in between the bottom and middle tier by intent so not even close to pay to win. Again, if you're seriously going to try and argue that, then we may just have to agree to disagree.
Darken-Sol Intruder Excluder 2	Posted - 2015.07.07 22:50:00 - [44] - Quote Faction warfare would be a peice of crap without APEX suits. Not to get off topic but without a carrot this game is pretty lame. Its the collection of gear that keeps us coming back. Crush them
RedBleach LeSanglant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 847	Posted - 2015.07.07 23:16:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Well said Rattati, Thank you. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.07 23:53:00 - [46] - Quote Krias Thracian wrote: Businesses need to have constant and new streams of revenue. Businesses that no longer generate new revenue streams die. Pure and simple, it's why there's a new Fifa game or COD game or iPhone every couple of years. If they don't do it then they stagnate. As a result it's not a fallacy, it's an absolute necessity. They cannot just rely on Boosters etc. and the suits apply to a different audience. I couldn't give a flying fig about SKINS or Boosters, they just get me there a little faster. I'll pay some money for a BPO so I don't have to spend hours of my time grinding for gear as I'm just not that good a player and I'll freely admit it. That's what it takes away, the grind and I see no problem with that. By that logic there would be other alternatives with which to introduce new revenue streams that appeal to different players. I'll ask again, why do you need an APEX suit when BPOs are already available? Krias Thracian wrote: In Order: Because you may not want to spend real cash to get the militia BPO. Because you may only have a certain amount of cash to spend. See above. These three things cater to three different levels of casual/veteran player and therefore all have merit depending on who you are and how you want to play the game. Someone keeps going on about people play the game how they want to play it. I see, well, I don't really have a lot of cash to spend on APEX Suits. Can I purchase Advanced BPOs now? What about Prototype, or Officer? Krias Thracian wrote: I don't disagree, but part of what makes the game what it is is the fitting and actually having differences. I wouldn't want to see the game reduced to a Halo-clone, but nor do I think the massive disparities that exist between proto and std should exist either. If tiericide gets there then that's fine, but then something else needs to be thought of for people who've put not insignificant sums of money into it. So because there are differences in fittings, that is the grounds for justifiying power creep through better levels of BPOs? If there aren't massive disparities than there would be no justifiable reason -not- to have full customizable Prototype BPOs with full PG/CPU values. Krias Thracian wrote: I couldn't disagree more, I think it's the best reason to destroy what you are referring to as the "core design philosophy" because if that is what the result of that philosophy was, then the philosophy was wrong to begin with. If you can't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Than we will have to, but fundamentally the core game design wasn't meant to revolve around the new player being exempt from the economic downfall of his poor decision making. What consequence is there to run APEX suits? How is it in any way fair for the guy that runs Standard gear, let alone having to pay for it every time he dies? Are we going to be issuing out free APEX suits for every player to support this hand-holding? Krias Thracian wrote: Again, in order as quote limit: Rattati is on this forum thread stating they should be above STD but below ADV in overall power. If they aren't then they need tweaking, but as intended, they are way behind top-tier. Whether they are or not in actuality is another matter, and maybe they need adjustment, but as intended, I see no problems. Certainly not the problems you are claiming. No, it's not pay to win, because those suits are not top tier, or even close to them. Pay to win would be if they were absolutely top of the line and nothing could top them. They are a in between the bottom and middle tier by intent so not even close to pay to win. Again, if you're seriously going to try and argue that, then we may just have to agree to disagree. Short-term thinking. Imagine if we had ISK efficiency metrics that we could actively and accurately track. Compare a player who runs Proto, consistently, versus a player who uses all BPOs, consistently. Who do you think is going to have the higher overall ISK efficiency, especially if those two meet? The BPO user has everything to gain but nothing to lose - thereby, in ISK Efficiency terms, the Proto user will more than likely (if not always) lose in those terms. Do you feel that that is in any way fair? That one player is basically forced to use lower tier gear in order to get that same ISK cost exemption to artificially boost his efficiency? But I'll ask it again because I haven't gotten an answer: Why are APEXs allowed to over-shadow Standard BPOs? Any justification you could apply to APEXs must also be applied for the justification for Prototype BPOs. APEXs were a betrayl toward the overall community that accepted them because they -WERE NOT- customizable. Now that they are fully customizable, there is no reason for them to exist because they distort the balance spectrum - regardless of cherry picked, anecdotal evidence. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:00:00 - [47] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ran solidly positive with both fits. Within decimel points of KD rating of each other. So bluntly anyone saying that APEX makes STD pointless or that STD BPOS have no place have THOROUGHLY lost their damn marbles. Oh well if we're using Anecdotal Evidence as the primary basis for this argument then I'd like to say that my experience with the ASCR has been absolutely horrible and my negative KDR running with it on a Logi suit are both grounds for why the ASCR and the Amarr Logi should be buffed. Anyone who says otherwise has -POSITIVELY- lost their damn marbles. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Nirwanda Vaughns 1	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:23:00 - [48] - Quote APEX suits have pretty much made all my old BPO suits (bar my C-II) pretty much obsolete and i feel kinda cheated out of my AUR because of it too. whats point of using my sver logi when i can just interchange a few bits on my APEX/Faction suit and get a better fit? then even with the increased slots you can't really fully fit a suit with BPO modules as the fittings are too low so having a fully free suit is lost unless you just have a couple of slots filled out. perhaps the regular BPOs would benefit from the Militia module and item BPOs being moved up to standard grade with the appropriate fitting requirements and leaving weaponry as they are. might help peopel feel a little less cheated about spending a lot of AUR on stuff thats becoming increasingly useless Please fix my C-II hitpoints!!
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:36:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. It's okay just to say that they make you a bunch of money, y'know, even if they're not fantastic for the game otherwise. Have a pony
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.08 00:50:00 - [50] - Quote APEXes aren't P2W by any means BUT they are very bad design as they make so many parts of the game (other well designed items) obsolete. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.

Jenni Welsh Reincarnation Incorporated 18	Posted - 2015.07.08 01:29:00 - [51] - Quote I don't mind the changes to the CPU or PG much... What I didn't like is how (because of the progression loss) the Caldari logis lost another low slot... they were already the worst logis in the first place (really bad armor, and not enough shields to make up for it)... when will CCP stop screwing them over. :(
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 352	Posted - 2015.07.08 02:23:00 - [52] - Quote YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS And use apex when you feels. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
demonkiller 12 TERRA R1SING New Eden's Heros 857	Posted - 2015.07.08 11:14:00 - [53] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: If you think this is OP and stupid please redirect your complains towards CCP Ratatti. I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise. You don't see the problem with a free suit being better then STD?............................. but its not really free is it, its either 30-45$ or 10mil and 100k LP, so its fair
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.07.08 13:18:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the OP! Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's. So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players. Maybe next time if you are juggling with PG/CPU values do it like i did in my post. Clean and easy to understand values of +/- compared to what we have before the patch. Its deffo easier to understand then comparing the chart with raw numbers and then go into the game to compare it by yourself. I believe when changes are happening on Eve they do it similar where you can see instantly the changes. We have always done that, just a time constraint in this case. are apex being turned into skin + power core later on? I hope they will thus I can get rid of the ugly skin
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:33:00 - [55] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: By that logic there would be other alternatives with which to introduce new revenue streams that appeal to different players. I'll ask again, why do you need an APEX suit when BPOs are already available? I see, well, I don't really have a lot of cash to spend on APEX Suits. Can I purchase Advanced BPOs now? What about Prototype, or Officer? I don't "need" anything of the sort, but as I said, anything that can take grind away from people is a good thing for me. I will reiterate, not everyone has to play the game the way you think they should, and CCP are catering to a wider audience than just the die-hard people who believe if you didn't get there their way then your play style is invalid. Need and nice to have are two different things. This falls in nice to have. The second part (combined due to quote limit) would fall under pay-to-win at that point as opposed to pay to advance slightly. Again, catering to people who want to (or can only) pay varying amounts is a valid business style, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter. Aeon Amadi wrote: So because there are differences in fittings, that is the grounds for justifiying power creep through better levels of BPOs? If there aren't massive disparities than there would be no justifiable reason -not- to have full customizable Prototype BPOs with full PG/CPU values. At this point, you're projecting so hard we could point you at a cinema screen in dolby surround. Nowhere did I say that fittings are a justification for anything. I said they were the strongest point of the game that keeps it from being another generic FPS like Halo. I also agreed with you that the massive disparity is part of the problem, which is why you've been pushing for tiericide? I'm not saying that proto shouldn't be better, it should or what's the point, just that it shouldn't be AS much better as it is. Aeon Amadi wrote: Than we will have to, but fundamentally the core game design wasn't meant to revolve around the new player being exempt from the economic downfall of his poor decision making. What consequence is there to run APEX suits? How is it in any way fair for the guy that runs Standard gear, let alone having to pay for it every time he dies? Are we going to be issuing out free APEX suits for every player to support this hand-holding? I'm not suggesting they should, you've missed the point of what I was saying again. I'm saying that some people's real-life affords them a limited scope for leisure and the barrier of entry for those people (for whatever reason, the reason I gave was one I pulled out of nowhere) is very high and there is no fun in being roflstomped. Aurum (and a lot of aurum, circa 58'000 is it?) gets you a suit that never runs out. I think the Aurum suits run at about 30-60 a piece? At sixty that's 1000 suits before that person has broken even assuming they refit it. IF they refit it, then they're paying ISK for the items they're refitting it with. If anything the idea of not customizing is actually worse, as they get more for free by your logic. Aeon Amadi wrote: Short-term thinking. Imagine if we had ISK efficiency metrics that we could actively and accurately track. Compare a player who runs Proto, consistently, versus a player who uses all BPOs, consistently. Who do you think is going to have the higher overall ISK efficiency, especially if those two meet? The BPO user has everything to gain but nothing to lose - thereby, in ISK Efficiency terms, the Proto user will more than likely (if not always) lose in those terms. Do you feel that that is in any way fair? That one player is basically forced to use lower tier gear in order to get that same ISK cost exemption to artificially boost his efficiency? Irrelevant as we don't have, never have had and never will have those figures as far as I'm aware. The complexity of stats wouldn't allow it. As a result your entire comment there is conjecture. I would speculate with you that you may well be right, but you may well be wrong depending on how you rate your isk efficiency and if you could somehow take individual skill out of the equation. Is your efficiency measured by Kills/Loss ratio in ISK? How do you convert AUR to isk? How do you take the effect of the other players that may assist out? What you're speculating on is impossible to prove in real-world analysis and we don't have the figures, so there is no merit to bringing them up as neither side can prove or disprove their point. Aeon Amadi wrote: But I'll ask it again because I haven't gotten an answer: Why are APEXs allowed to over-shadow Standard BPOs? Any justification you could apply to APEXs must also be applied for the justification for Prototype BPOs. APEXs were a betrayl toward the overall community that accepted them because they -WERE NOT- customizable. Now that they are fully customizable, there is no reason for them to exist because they distort the balance spectrum - regardless of cherry picked, anecdotal evidence. I don't have to justify anything to you. I'll reiterate, the fact that you don't like them (along with others) doesn't automatically invalidate their purpose or existence as not everyone has to have the same opinion about how to play the game. They are another facet of the game, if you don't like them, you don't have to buy them. The differences between them and standard bpo's come down to their price points and buy-in values whilst not being pay-to-win. As I said above, being customizable hurts their ISK efficiency as you're paying for what you're fitting and only the suit is then free, as opposed to the whole fit before that. They are pay-to advance and not even that good. yes they're free, but they are a far cry from proto good.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:40:00 - [56] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: APEXes aren't P2W by any means BUT they are very bad design as they make so many parts of the game (other well designed items) obsolete. But they don't, they make them obsolete only for a subset of players that have gone and bought them. Those modules are still very much useable by the people who don't have or wish to have APEX suits as the disparity between APEX and STD just isn't that high. They are no more obsolete than the guy who played since beta having hundreds of millions of ISK (or who has taken advantage of EVE-DUST transfers that happened in the past and may still happen) and so never needs anything but proto again. There's functionally no real difference there. The only difference is the source of the "unlimited" suits. One person paid cash for their suit and the other paid in ISK which may or may not have been earned in-game.


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