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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2015.07.07 21:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Dzago Sevatarion wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts.
WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS They're not the same game, why would they actualize concepts the same way? We have officer weapons, EVE has implants. They're both an attempt at giving some weight to death beyond ISK. (Each has its own shortcomings in accomplishing this goal, mind.) Regardless of whether or not they should or should not be the same, borrow elements from one another, or be completely bereft of one another - BPOs AND APEXs betray the core game design of Dust 514 which is the 'Endless Cycle'. This used to be all the rage back when Dust 514 actually had marketing but I'll give everyone a refresher of what that core game design was: - You fight. You earn ISK. - You use ISK to buy gear. - You use that gear to fight. BPOs of -any- type throw a pipe wrench in that entire core and provide a fundamental exception toward that game design. Militia BPOs would be fine because they have higher PG/CPU costs than standard gear, often are far worse, etc. They provide you something to fall back on in the eventuality that you go broke from excessive spending and losses. Standard BPOs and APEXs only provide power creep and devalue not only the equipment and gear they're designed to permanently replace but the core structure of the War Based Economy that this game has been founded upon. The only backing BPOs and APEXs have is that "they help new players stay afloat" - but that is a fallacy because that was the entire point of Militia BPOs and Starter Fits. BPOs and APEX suits serve no other purpose than to pull in revenue for CCP and to institute rampant power creep.
I'm sorry but I disagree with you. You seem to be implying that this is purely an exercise in game-world ideals. In a perfect world I might agree with you. The purist gamers would win out and the concept of purity you're endorsing would have merit. However, that still implies that your method of playing the game is the only one that is valid.
Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and this game is also a business. Businesses have to make money. No game survives on the purist, hardcore players. Casual players don't come into that kind of game as a new player because it's not in any way enjoyable to just get stomped time after time after time. In a game with something to lose, the majority of those players will just migrate away to a game that is less punishing and eventually Dust will just die its death because the hardcore "this is the only proper way to do it, clawing up from nothing until you stand on the top of a pile of your enemies corpses" players just aren't enough. Sure, that's one way to play, but damn is it a slog. Some people get their kicks from that kind of adversity. Many people are completely put off.
CCP's model created a way that a casual player could invest cash to be have better gear than the minimum standard and significantly worse than the top standard. I can see it from your side, but I can also see the guy who works two jobs and takes care of his disabled kids getting a couple of hours a week in of a game he wants to enjoy but can't because he just can't invest the time required to get that kind of gear.
If the reply to that is that this game isn't for him, then I am severely disappointed in the whole community for being exclusive and elitist. I get that the guy that's worked hard for his proto gear feels that an unlimited supply of suits is a bit harsh, but quite frankly, they're better than the free stuff, but much much worse than top tier by design so I really don't see the problem. So by all means condemn CCP for daring to have a clever way of making money that doesn't render the game pay-to-win, as the suits are still far from top-tier; but to me you're just condemning the people who actually pay the money that keeps the game running, as well as displaying elitism. |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 22:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
"CCP has to make money" This is the biggest fallacy because CCP can make money off of Boosters, SKINs, and normal BPOs. Had APEX suits not been introduced, this argument wouldn't stand because that was the same argument applied to BPOs prior to their introduction. APEX suits are simply a higher priced variant of BPOs that further impact the overall design and balance of the game through power creep.
Businesses need to have constant and new streams of revenue. Businesses that no longer generate new revenue streams die. Pure and simple, it's why there's a new Fifa game or COD game or iPhone every couple of years. If they don't do it then they stagnate. As a result it's not a fallacy, it's an absolute necessity. They cannot just rely on Boosters etc. and the suits apply to a different audience. I couldn't give a flying fig about SKINS or Boosters, they just get me there a little faster. I'll pay some money for a BPO so I don't have to spend hours of my time grinding for gear as I'm just not that good a player and I'll freely admit it. That's what it takes away, the grind and I see no problem with that.
Aeon Amadi wrote:Why use Militia when Militia BPOs are free? Why use a Militia BPO when a Standard BPO is better? Why use a Standard BPO when an APEX is better? In Order: Because you may not want to spend real cash to get the militia BPO. Because you may only have a certain amount of cash to spend. See above. These three things cater to three different levels of casual/veteran player and therefore all have merit depending on who you are and how you want to play the game. Someone keeps going on about people play the game how they want to play it.
Aeon Amadi wrote:"Casuals can't enjoy the game without APEX suits" Largely the same argument as BPOs. You start out with free, Starter fits that never go away. You can purchase Militia BPOs, you can purchase Standard BPOs - why do you need the APEX? Because it isn't competitive? That is a fundamental flaw of power-level based design and exactly why we want Tiericide to begin with.
I don't disagree, but part of what makes the game what it is is the fitting and actually having differences. I wouldn't want to see the game reduced to a Halo-clone, but nor do I think the massive disparities that exist between proto and std should exist either. If tiericide gets there then that's fine, but then something else needs to be thought of for people who've put not insignificant sums of money into it.
Aeon Amadi wrote:"This game isn't for him is the wrong approach" I don't disagree, but I also don't think that is a proper justification for destroying the core design philosophy of the game or impacting the potential economy through a ham-fisted attempt to make the game better for him. Even still, there are much better alternatives.
I couldn't disagree more, I think it's the best reason to destroy what you are referring to as the "core design philosophy" because if that is what the result of that philosophy was, then the philosophy was wrong to begin with. If you can't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Aeon Amadi wrote:"Much better than the free stuff, much worse than the top tier by far" This isn't the case anymore, now that we have similar slot layouts across all tiers, hence why APEX now has to be more powerful because they are the pipe wrench in tiericide, not the other way around.
"By all means condemn CCP for a clever way to make money that isn't pay-to-win" Actually, it kind of is - unless you spend exorbitant amounts of time grinding out FW for those very same suits. Which if the argument is that these suits are for new players, we're expecting those new players to go broke (because there are no ISK rewards in FW!!!!) in order to get them.
Again, in order as quote limit:
Rattati is on this forum thread stating they should be above STD but below ADV in overall power. If they aren't then they need tweaking, but as intended, they are way behind top-tier. Whether they are or not in actuality is another matter, and maybe they need adjustment, but as intended, I see no problems. Certainly not the problems you are claiming.
No, it's not pay to win, because those suits are not top tier, or even close to them. Pay to win would be if they were absolutely top of the line and nothing could top them. They are a in between the bottom and middle tier by intent so not even close to pay to win. Again, if you're seriously going to try and argue that, then we may just have to agree to disagree.
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2015.07.08 17:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: By that logic there would be other alternatives with which to introduce new revenue streams that appeal to different players. I'll ask again, why do you need an APEX suit when BPOs are already available?
I see, well, I don't really have a lot of cash to spend on APEX Suits. Can I purchase Advanced BPOs now? What about Prototype, or Officer?
I don't "need" anything of the sort, but as I said, anything that can take grind away from people is a good thing for me. I will reiterate, not everyone has to play the game the way you think they should, and CCP are catering to a wider audience than just the die-hard people who believe if you didn't get there their way then your play style is invalid. Need and nice to have are two different things. This falls in nice to have.
The second part (combined due to quote limit) would fall under pay-to-win at that point as opposed to pay to advance slightly. Again, catering to people who want to (or can only) pay varying amounts is a valid business style, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.
Aeon Amadi wrote:So because there are differences in fittings, that is the grounds for justifiying power creep through better levels of BPOs? If there aren't massive disparities than there would be no justifiable reason -not- to have full customizable Prototype BPOs with full PG/CPU values.
At this point, you're projecting so hard we could point you at a cinema screen in dolby surround. Nowhere did I say that fittings are a justification for anything. I said they were the strongest point of the game that keeps it from being another generic FPS like Halo. I also agreed with you that the massive disparity is part of the problem, which is why you've been pushing for tiericide? I'm not saying that proto shouldn't be better, it should or what's the point, just that it shouldn't be AS much better as it is.
Aeon Amadi wrote:Than we will have to, but fundamentally the core game design wasn't meant to revolve around the new player being exempt from the economic downfall of his poor decision making. What consequence is there to run APEX suits? How is it in any way fair for the guy that runs Standard gear, let alone having to pay for it every time he dies? Are we going to be issuing out free APEX suits for every player to support this hand-holding?
I'm not suggesting they should, you've missed the point of what I was saying again. I'm saying that some people's real-life affords them a limited scope for leisure and the barrier of entry for those people (for whatever reason, the reason I gave was one I pulled out of nowhere) is very high and there is no fun in being roflstomped. Aurum (and a lot of aurum, circa 58'000 is it?) gets you a suit that never runs out. I think the Aurum suits run at about 30-60 a piece? At sixty that's 1000 suits before that person has broken even assuming they refit it. IF they refit it, then they're paying ISK for the items they're refitting it with. If anything the idea of not customizing is actually worse, as they get more for free by your logic.
Aeon Amadi wrote:Short-term thinking. Imagine if we had ISK efficiency metrics that we could actively and accurately track. Compare a player who runs Proto, consistently, versus a player who uses all BPOs, consistently. Who do you think is going to have the higher overall ISK efficiency, especially if those two meet? The BPO user has everything to gain but nothing to lose - thereby, in ISK Efficiency terms, the Proto user will more than likely (if not always) lose in those terms. Do you feel that that is in any way fair? That one player is basically forced to use lower tier gear in order to get that same ISK cost exemption to artificially boost his efficiency?
Irrelevant as we don't have, never have had and never will have those figures as far as I'm aware. The complexity of stats wouldn't allow it. As a result your entire comment there is conjecture. I would speculate with you that you may well be right, but you may well be wrong depending on how you rate your isk efficiency and if you could somehow take individual skill out of the equation. Is your efficiency measured by Kills/Loss ratio in ISK? How do you convert AUR to isk? How do you take the effect of the other players that may assist out? What you're speculating on is impossible to prove in real-world analysis and we don't have the figures, so there is no merit to bringing them up as neither side can prove or disprove their point.
Aeon Amadi wrote:But I'll ask it again because I haven't gotten an answer: Why are APEXs allowed to over-shadow Standard BPOs? Any justification you could apply to APEXs must also be applied for the justification for Prototype BPOs. APEXs were a betrayl toward the overall community that accepted them because they -WERE NOT- customizable. Now that they are fully customizable, there is no reason for them to exist because they distort the balance spectrum - regardless of cherry picked, anecdotal evidence.
I don't have to justify anything to you. I'll reiterate, the fact that you don't like them (along with others) doesn't automatically invalidate their purpose or existence as not everyone has to have the same opinion about how to play the game. They are another facet of the game, if you don't like them, you don't have to buy them.
The differences between them and standard bpo's come down to their price points and buy-in values whilst not being pay-to-win. As I said above, being customizable hurts their ISK efficiency as you're paying for what you're fitting and only the suit is then free, as opposed to the whole fit before that. They are pay-to advance and not even that good. yes they're free, but they are a far cry from proto good. |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2015.07.08 17:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:APEXes aren't P2W by any means
BUT
they are very bad design as they make so many parts of the game (other well designed items) obsolete.
But they don't, they make them obsolete only for a subset of players that have gone and bought them. Those modules are still very much useable by the people who don't have or wish to have APEX suits as the disparity between APEX and STD just isn't that high.
They are no more obsolete than the guy who played since beta having hundreds of millions of ISK (or who has taken advantage of EVE-DUST transfers that happened in the past and may still happen) and so never needs anything but proto again. There's functionally no real difference there. The only difference is the source of the "unlimited" suits. One person paid cash for their suit and the other paid in ISK which may or may not have been earned in-game. |
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