Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts.

WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS

I see no problem with APEX suits having slightly better fitting capacity than STD suits. There'd be no distinction whatsoever between BPO and APEX otherwise.

I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/

Except for the fact that it fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole and now that we have the beginnings of tiericide shows the rather painfully obvious truth about that. APEXs only ever got out the gate because they were pre-fitted and couldn't be customized (anyone remember CCP saying 'they're not OP because they can't be customized'?) but when they became customizable, they overshadowed BPOs entirely and everyone wanted them (even though there are some of us who feel even the BPOs shouldn't have existed).

Now that all the suits have the same slots the APEXs -SHOULD- by all rights have been turned into just typical BPOs to restore that balance in power creep but because players feel they got gypped on their value (because why wouldn't they? You provided them a golden nugget) we have to figure out a way to make them - holy **** - better than typical BPOs again.

So, yet again, you have an absolutely 100% free, customizable base, that overshadows and fundamentally devalues BPOs as a whole, which already devalue and overshadow standard ISK suits. Like, the logic here is confounding.

EDIT: For the record, the only reason I ever even -started- to like APEX BPOs having prototype slots is because we were getting the beginnings of tiericide and -all- suits were fixing to get the same slots anyway. But now that they'll have an edge on Standard power-level suits.... We're right back to the same freaggin mess. BPOs should have -never- been more powerful than Militia, let alone Standard.

Those don't generate ships and weapons without plugging them into an industrial work station and adding refined ores of various types in varying amounts.

WE REQUIRE MORE MINERALS

They're not the same game, why would they actualize concepts the same way?

We have officer weapons, EVE has implants. They're both an attempt at giving some weight to death beyond ISK. (Each has its own shortcomings in accomplishing this goal, mind.)

I hated the idea of BPO's in general or the way they work. something completely unlimited still seems silly in a game like this :/

Regardless of whether or not they should or should not be the same, borrow elements from one another, or be completely bereft of one another - BPOs AND APEXs betray the core game design of Dust 514 which is the 'Endless Cycle'. This used to be all the rage back when Dust 514 actually had marketing but I'll give everyone a refresher of what that core game design was:

- You fight. You earn ISK.
- You use ISK to buy gear.
- You use that gear to fight.

BPOs of -any- type throw a pipe wrench in that entire core and provide a fundamental exception toward that game design. Militia BPOs would be fine because they have higher PG/CPU costs than standard gear, often are far worse, etc. They provide you something to fall back on in the eventuality that you go broke from excessive spending and losses. Standard BPOs and APEXs only provide power creep and devalue not only the equipment and gear they're designed to permanently replace but the core structure of the War Based Economy that this game has been founded upon.

The only backing BPOs and APEXs have is that "they help new players stay afloat" - but that is a fallacy because that was the entire point of Militia BPOs and Starter Fits. BPOs and APEX suits serve no other purpose than to pull in revenue for CCP and to institute rampant power creep.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. You seem to be implying that this is purely an exercise in game-world ideals. In a perfect world I might agree with you. The purist gamers would win out and the concept of purity you're endorsing would have merit. However, that still implies that your method of playing the game is the only one that is valid.

Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and this game is also a business. Businesses have to make money. No game survives on the purist, hardcore players. Casual players don't come into that kind of game as a new player because it's not in any way enjoyable to just get stomped time after time after time. In a game with something to lose, the majority of those players will just migrate away to a game that is less punishing and eventually Dust will just die its death because the hardcore "this is the only proper way to do it, clawing up from nothing until you stand on the top of a pile of your enemies corpses" players just aren't enough. Sure, that's one way to play, but damn is it a slog. Some people get their kicks from that kind of adversity. Many people are completely put off.

CCP's model created a way that a casual player could invest cash to be have better gear than the minimum standard and significantly worse than the top standard. I can see it from your side, but I can also see the guy who works two jobs and takes care of his disabled kids getting a couple of hours a week in of a game he wants to enjoy but can't because he just can't invest the time required to get that kind of gear.

If the reply to that is that this game isn't for him, then I am severely disappointed in the whole community for being exclusive and elitist. I get that the guy that's worked hard for his proto gear feels that an unlimited supply of suits is a bit harsh, but quite frankly, they're better than the free stuff, but much much worse than top tier by design so I really don't see the problem. So by all means condemn CCP for daring to have a clever way of making money that doesn't render the game pay-to-win, as the suits are still far from top-tier; but to me you're just condemning the people who actually pay the money that keeps the game running, as well as displaying elitism.

"CCP has to make money"
This is the biggest fallacy because CCP can make money off of Boosters, SKINs, and normal BPOs. Had APEX suits not been introduced, this argument wouldn't stand because that was the same argument applied to BPOs prior to their introduction. APEX suits are simply a higher priced variant of BPOs that further impact the overall design and balance of the game through power creep.

Why use Militia when Militia BPOs are free?
Why use a Militia BPO when a Standard BPO is better?
Why use a Standard BPO when an APEX is better?

"Casuals can't enjoy the game without APEX suits"
Largely the same argument as BPOs. You start out with free, Starter fits that never go away. You can purchase Militia BPOs, you can purchase Standard BPOs - why do you need the APEX? Because it isn't competitive? That is a fundamental flaw of power-level based design and exactly why we want Tiericide to begin with.

"This game isn't for him is the wrong approach"
I don't disagree, but I also don't think that is a proper justification for destroying the core design philosophy of the game or impacting the potential economy through a ham-fisted attempt to make the game better for him. Even still, there are much better alternatives.

"Much better than the free stuff, much worse than the top tier by far"
This isn't the case anymore, now that we have similar slot layouts across all tiers, hence why APEX now has to be more powerful because they are the pipe wrench in tiericide, not the other way around.

"By all means condemn CCP for a clever way to make money that isn't pay-to-win"
Actually, it kind of is - unless you spend exorbitant amounts of time grinding out FW for those very same suits. Which if the argument is that these suits are for new players, we're expecting those new players to go broke (because there are no ISK rewards in FW!!!!) in order to get them.

Thanks for the OP!

Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's.

So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players.

Businesses need to have constant and new streams of revenue. Businesses that no longer generate new revenue streams die. Pure and simple, it's why there's a new Fifa game or COD game or iPhone every couple of years. If they don't do it then they stagnate. As a result it's not a fallacy, it's an absolute necessity. They cannot just rely on Boosters etc. and the suits apply to a different audience. I couldn't give a flying fig about SKINS or Boosters, they just get me there a little faster. I'll pay some money for a BPO so I don't have to spend hours of my time grinding for gear as I'm just not that good a player and I'll freely admit it. That's what it takes away, the grind and I see no problem with that.

In Order:
Because you may not want to spend real cash to get the militia BPO.
Because you may only have a certain amount of cash to spend.
See above. These three things cater to three different levels of casual/veteran player and therefore all have merit depending on who you are and how you want to play the game. Someone keeps going on about people play the game how they want to play it.

I don't disagree, but part of what makes the game what it is is the fitting and actually having differences. I wouldn't want to see the game reduced to a Halo-clone, but nor do I think the massive disparities that exist between proto and std should exist either. If tiericide gets there then that's fine, but then something else needs to be thought of for people who've put not insignificant sums of money into it.

I couldn't disagree more, I think it's the best reason to destroy what you are referring to as the "core design philosophy" because if that is what the result of that philosophy was, then the philosophy was wrong to begin with. If you can't see that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Again, in order as quote limit:

Rattati is on this forum thread stating they should be above STD but below ADV in overall power. If they aren't then they need tweaking, but as intended, they are way behind top-tier. Whether they are or not in actuality is another matter, and maybe they need adjustment, but as intended, I see no problems. Certainly not the problems you are claiming.

No, it's not pay to win, because those suits are not top tier, or even close to them. Pay to win would be if they were absolutely top of the line and nothing could top them. They are a in between the bottom and middle tier by intent so not even close to pay to win. Again, if you're seriously going to try and argue that, then we may just have to agree to disagree.

Ran solidly positive with both fits. Within decimel points of KD rating of each other.

So bluntly anyone saying that APEX makes STD pointless or that STD BPOS have no place have THOROUGHLY lost their damn marbles.

Thanks for the OP!

Yes, they are intended to be between STD and ADV, and this was defined in the original Dev Blog about APEX's.

So this is a Buff to maintain that distinction. With the Buff that Standard bPO's are getting with proto slot layouts, the APEX's needed to be buffed as well to not become redundant, which is not how we want to treat loyal customers and FW players.

You don't see the problem with a free suit being better then STD?.............................

We have always done that, just a time constraint in this case.

By that logic there would be other alternatives with which to introduce new revenue streams that appeal to different players. I'll ask again, why do you need an APEX suit when BPOs are already available?

I see, well, I don't really have a lot of cash to spend on APEX Suits. Can I purchase Advanced BPOs now? What about Prototype, or Officer?

So because there are differences in fittings, that is the grounds for justifiying power creep through better levels of BPOs? If there aren't massive disparities than there would be no justifiable reason -not- to have full customizable Prototype BPOs with full PG/CPU values.

Than we will have to, but fundamentally the core game design wasn't meant to revolve around the new player being exempt from the economic downfall of his poor decision making. What consequence is there to run APEX suits? How is it in any way fair for the guy that runs Standard gear, let alone having to pay for it every time he dies? Are we going to be issuing out free APEX suits for every player to support this hand-holding?

Short-term thinking. Imagine if we had ISK efficiency metrics that we could actively and accurately track. Compare a player who runs Proto, consistently, versus a player who uses all BPOs, consistently. Who do you think is going to have the higher overall ISK efficiency, especially if those two meet? The BPO user has everything to gain but nothing to lose - thereby, in ISK Efficiency terms, the Proto user will more than likely (if not always) lose in those terms. Do you feel that that is in any way fair? That one player is basically forced to use lower tier gear in order to get that same ISK cost exemption to artificially boost his efficiency?

But I'll ask it again because I haven't gotten an answer: Why are APEXs allowed to over-shadow Standard BPOs? Any justification you could apply to APEXs must also be applied for the justification for Prototype BPOs. APEXs were a betrayl toward the overall community that accepted them because they -WERE NOT- customizable. Now that they are fully customizable, there is no reason for them to exist because they distort the balance spectrum - regardless of cherry picked, anecdotal evidence.

APEXes aren't P2W by any means

BUT

they are very bad design as they make so many parts of the game (other well designed items) obsolete.