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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:22:00 - [1] - Quote So. I am working on a project for rifle normalization and creation of an actual DPS curve that is consistent at all ranges. So far my work has resulted not in the homogenization of weaponry, but variance in overall performance. Doing the assault rifles first, designating them as the short range, high DPS rifles. The results are very interesting. Amarr weapons are used as my baseline for pure midrange and 0/0 modifiers to range and DPS. So far, the variants are as follows (profiles not applied): Assault: 50m optimal, 410 DPS Burst: 60m optimal, 400 DPS Breach: 70m optimal, 390 DPS Tac: 80m Optimal, 380 DPS Racial profiles give the following modifiers to each variant: Caldari: +10m/-10 DPS Minmatar: +5m/-5% DPS Amarr: 0m/0 DPS Gallente: -10m/+10 DPS So the assault rifles fall roughly: Caldari: 60m, 405.9 Armor, 332.1 Shields Minmatar: 55m, 447.925 armor, 331.075 Shields Amarr: 50m, 328 armor, 492 shields Gallente: 40m, 405 armor, 496.1 Shields This means that the plasma rifle and asscram perform noticably more poorly versus armor, and the rail and ACR perform poorly vs. Shields. The gallente plasma rifle loses 20m of optimal to the caldari in exchange for noticably higher damage in close. There seems to be a noticable lack of 700+ shield DPS. Another consideration is that TTK goes down, and it becomes easier to justify different bonusing to suits like sentinels, potentially trading resistance bonusing for better utility or weapon application, as well as not having weapons which, by themselves, insta-smear scouts. Another consideration is that laser profile weapons do not need to be rending armor casually. CR should have a hard time vs. Caldari. Tac weapons with some of the best ranges shouldn't out-DPS weapons that have to be in knife range for effectiveness. Tell me how much you hate it! WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 474	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:27:00 - [2] - Quote Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles. I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:40:00 - [3] - Quote not to critique too much, but laser tech is supposed to out range projectile tech >.< Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:40:00 - [4] - Quote nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:46:00 - [5] - Quote I'd rather rattati tweak the rifles from baseline via assault and commando bonusing Example: Caldari. The need for caldari to completely sacrifice damage for tank or vice versa, while having a lower dps weapon means that a calassault can get a direct bonus to synergy of the rail rifle while making it a doable, but lesser option on the galassault WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:48:00 - [6] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:49:00 - [7] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that This already drops ttk. Because :sentinels: I'm not dropping it further. The last time rifles got jacked up without eyeballing fatties, PC became sentinel 514. I used the duvolle as the baseline because it is the rifle struggling the most. I actually built tge rifle ratios against the current duvolle AR for a reason. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:05:00 - [8] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: not to critique too much, but laser tech is supposed to out range projectile tech >.< Would you really like me to increase the range relative to the other rifles, knowing full well that each addition of 1m results in a loss of 1.2% efficacy versus armor. I have, by intention, not taken steps to make scramblers more efficient versus amarr and gallente dropsuits. Because doing so will result in the current disproportionate damage output versus shields. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:41:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that This already drops ttk. Because :sentinels: I'm not dropping it further. The last time rifles got jacked up without eyeballing fatties, PC became sentinel 514. I used the duvolle as the baseline because it is the rifle struggling the most. I actually built tge rifle ratios against the current duvolle AR for a reason. Oooooh, yeah. Completely forgot about sentinels. That'd definitely be a problem Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:05:00 - [10] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles. I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill Agreed, I'm tired of seeing threads point out flaws in one weapon, you can't balance looking at just one. This is refreshing, and reads like Breakin Stuff actually wants to be Fixin Stuff The whole childsplay.. of b,b,b,b,but his gun is better than mmmiiinnnneeeee QQ Is really old, like over 2 years old if you haven't noticed the standard of Buff/Nerf QQ we see here So, enough with the derail, get back to work !! Te Sbundo'd

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 14:24:00 - [11] - Quote This also fits in with the AV/V proposal I've been tooling around with. But that one will also need to come with a sharp drop in cost to vehicle drivers. Because they are balanced on paper there. But they're still gonna get instagibbed by mass fire. Doesn't work at 1.5 mil a pop though WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:09:00 - [12] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall All this would do is ruin racial diversity. !--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust on both current Gen consoles--!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:17:00 - [13] - Quote Fatties skew the curve hard enough I'm going to run the numbers at 420 base DPS to see where the numbers land. ALL HAIL THE LARDBUTTS! And bow, for I am their king. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:35:00 - [14] - Quote Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 17:49:00 - [15] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:56:00 - [16] - Quote Proposal Linked at the top of the OP WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:14:00 - [17] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:39:00 - [18] - Quote Inb4 Scrams questions: Viziam DPS: 715 base, no skill, no mods Caldari assault Ck.0 Shield HP (absolute maximum): 706.75 Caldari Sentinel Ck.0 Shield eHP (Absolute Maximum) vs. Viziam: 946.65 (1041.315 after 10% laser resist to shield) Viziam max skill + 3 mods: 1164.7 DPS vs. shields WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 640	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:58:00 - [19] - Quote Personally, I'd swap the Min and Amarr stats. I feel that would follow racial style better. We want cake and tea.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:05:00 - [20] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: Personally, I'd swap the Min and Amarr stats. I feel that would follow racial style better. Amarr DPS vs. armor is abysmal. that's why I have them higher. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics 195	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:23:00 - [21] - Quote Pffft...all this sounds too much like common sense, I don't like it. Hejj...someone'd gotta say it.
Cody Sietz Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:04:00 - [22] - Quote I don't understand what what them scribbles and numbers a mean but I support em Patooie "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Oceltot Mortalis 84	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:12:00 - [23] - Quote what about fall off? I like the idea of bringing them all to closer range, as the rule for rifles currently is: Long range kill guaranteed for rail / laser, but CQB is not guaranteed to projectile / plasma. Projectile and plasma need similar range to balance their non-linear dps. Aspiring Forum Warrior. Commando Advocate / Gallente Advocate / Legion Advocate / Avocado Advocate
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:22:00 - [24] - Quote Maybe I missed something but I have a quick question. If you balance rifles and increase TTK for them, but leave side arms as is does this create any issues? Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:21:00 - [25] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Maybe I missed something but I have a quick question. If you balance rifles and increase TTK for them, but leave side arms as is does this create any issues? Doubt it. But more the point, I'm not doing more than one data block at a time WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:15:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it. thats not noticable. tbut you can buff it by 12% to 15% if it matters
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:24:00 - [27] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall All this would do is ruin racial diversity. why should gallente use an assault rifle when a rail rifle benefits them more? when this happens, a caldari using a rail rifle is out performed with his own weapon
Jax Saurian GunFall Mobilization 259	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:08:00 - [28] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits. Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it. thats not noticable. tbut you can buff it by 12% to 15% if it matters A better way of doing it is either A) decrease damage if you use a racially incorrect weapon on your suit (AR on a Minmatar gets a % damage decrease) or B) increase damage if you use a racially correct weapon/suit combination (Mass Driver on a Minmatar gets a % damage increase) but to be honest I don't like these options so I thought of a third C) Racial specific bonuses for racially correct weapon/suit combination (Flaylock on a Minmatar gets a % increase to... IDK rate of fire or something)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:14:00 - [29] - Quote Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:35:00 - [30] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? excellent work

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:50:00 - [31] - Quote question: cal assault fitted with a full racial shield tank and no plates or damage mods vs gallente assault with full armor tank and damage mods. if they both use racial breach weapons, how much damage does the gal assault do at the RR's optimal range? it would a breach RR at level 5 skills vs Breach AR at level 5 skills plus 3 damage mods. im concerned that caldari would still be out performed damage wise (which why the weapon bnuses would be useful at making sure that doesnt happen)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:06:00 - [32] - Quote Rail rifle variants all feature highest damage per shot along with highest range, except the base variant which feature less damage per shot. why have you done this?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:30:00 - [33] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: question: cal assault fitted with a full racial shield tank and no plates or damage mods vs gallente assault with full armor tank and damage mods. if they both use racial breach weapons, how much damage does the gal assault do at the RR's optimal range? it would a breach RR at level 5 skills vs Breach AR at level 5 skills plus 3 damage mods. im concerned that caldari would still be out performed damage wise (which why the weapon bnuses would be useful at making sure that doesnt happen) This is why proper assault suit bonusing is critical WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 04:32:00 - [34] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Rail rifle variants all feature highest damage per shot along with highest range, except the base variant which feature less damage per shot. why have you done this? Because they also have the lowest DPS due to rate of fire. Railguns in new eden are traditionally hammer shots that hit slowly. Only out-alpha'd and beaten in sluggishness by minmatar artillery WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 06:32:00 - [35] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists. Not always true. I have a Caldari assault just for running into groups of heavies while laughing because the damage is negligible when compared to hitting armor. The cup is not half empty as pacifists sayyyyyyyyy AIV member.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 06:49:00 - [36] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations. that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists. Not always true. I have a Caldari assault just for running into groups of heavies while laughing because the damage is negligible when compared to hitting armor. I'm actually talking about scramblers WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 13:26:00 - [37] - Quote Meh. I'm not really a fan. Mostly because I like the Rock/Paper/Scissors mechanics of Eve Online and Dust 514 and I think they need to be expanded on rather than narrowed inward. When I use an Assault Rifle on a Gal Assault, I want to know that I have a definite advantage in CQC due to my skill and fitting - not have it be a toss up because the fittings don't matter as much. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:05:00 - [38] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles. I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill Pretty much this. I would also like to note that - depending on the margin - if TTK is increased enough on the Light Weapons (such as rifles) that allows for a larges palette within which to work on granting the Assault racial bonuses more weight/merit, something they are generally in need of. 0.02 ISK ps ~ it's still first thing in the morning for me at the moment, and we all know I look to concepts over particular numbers, but having said those things I'm thrilled by the idea of there being a solid method present for the LW game wide. Helps apply balance, helps the NPE (as weapons are more readily understood by incoming players), helps improve racial fits/gameplay as you can get utility from each race in a more stable way. The merits of any given method can be debated, but I will take a game wide method that is clear and known over the lack of either of those things pretty much any day of the week. o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:08:00 - [39] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? I hope this set of questions gets a lot more feedback. I've used every rifle in the game, but I would much rather community feedback on the subject than try to use my own personal experience to define where the system is robust or weak (I believe using a sample size of one and defining it as purely accurate is a form of confirmation bias). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:11:00 - [40] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? I hope this set of questions gets a lot more feedback. I've used every rifle in the game, but I would much rather community feedback on the subject than try to use my own personal experience to define where the system is robust or weak (I believe using a sample size of one and defining it as purely accurate is a form of confirmation bias). That and because Cross is heroically lazy. And yet somehow manages to do things. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:17:00 - [41] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Option C would be my preference. But let's get off the semantics. Does anyone see problems with proposed stats? Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work? I hope this set of questions gets a lot more feedback. I've used every rifle in the game, but I would much rather community feedback on the subject than try to use my own personal experience to define where the system is robust or weak (I believe using a sample size of one and defining it as purely accurate is a form of confirmation bias). That and because Cross is heroically lazy. And yet somehow manages to do things. Community feedback! It's in my job description Plus, turns out not everyone would be the same exact game I would means I have to listen to be a decent CPM. And if that means making others provide input rather than doing it all myself, well, I'll struggle through somehow CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Indianna Pwns TERRA R1SING New Eden's Heros 120	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:20:00 - [42] - Quote I really like this proposal as it will allow a player to pick a racial rifle they like and really invest and specialise in it (dusts current skill tree rewards players for doing this) without feeling they will be gimped in some way. I.e lack of range on the AR compared to other rifles.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:54:00 - [43] - Quote Good to see the comments. Keep em coming. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Bishop Harcourt K-A-O-S theory 25	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:01:00 - [44] - Quote The problem I see(the only one) is you cannot use the amar as the baseline. They only have 2 of the 4 rifle(TAC & Assault) variants available. Same goes for the Minn and squids. Ratman cannot and should not try to balance around missing content. Logibro, Director, KAOS THEORY's Official Minister of Science and Magic.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:17:00 - [45] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: The problem I see(the only one) is you cannot use the amar as the baseline. They only have 2 of the 4 rifle(TAC & Assault) variants available. Same goes for the Minn and squids. Ratman cannot and should not try to balance around missing content. Read the proposal. And look at the spreadsheets before you comment. I added polite suggestiins for racial parity in the proposal as well. And the balance is BY CLASS. Not by race. So even if rattati never adds the missing guns, breach baseline is 390 and the rail rifle and breach assault are still adjusted accordingly. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Bishop Harcourt K-A-O-S theory 25	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:29:00 - [46] - Quote I read the doc and no spread sheet(a problem on my end, I believe) was to be found. No tabs, just a page with the proposal. I will check again after my break. Logibro, Director, KAOS THEORY's Official Minister of Science and Magic.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:51:00 - [47] - Quote Bishop Harcourt wrote: I read the doc and no spread sheet(a problem on my end, I believe) was to be found. No tabs, just a page with the proposal. I will check again after my break. The the names of the weapon classes are actually links to the pages. They're there. I missed it the first time I read it myself as well.
Bishop Harcourt K-A-O-S theory 25	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:54:00 - [48] - Quote OK, so it was a problem on my end. I had to sign out of Google and sign back in for the links to be clickable. OK my concerns are put to rest. Full rifle pairity is the lowest of the low hanging fruit as far as new content is concerned (IMO) no new assets needed, just your proposed stats. Logibro, Director, KAOS THEORY's Official Minister of Science and Magic.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.01 11:42:00 - [49] - Quote Trying to keep things as stupid simple as possible is the objective. Database numbers are probably more mind numbing than drawing up the spreadsheets. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.02 15:58:00 - [50] - Quote If anyone spots any math errors, let me know WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.02 16:05:00 - [51] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill When you say "skill", do you mean skill in the traditional FPS sense (headshots, strafing/counterstrafing, positioning, etc)? Or do you mean wiggling around and hipfiring while AA aims your gun? I'd assume the former, but I ask as there are some who call the latter skill. Those some tend to favor extending TTK . The weaker our weapons and deeper our HP reserves, the less getting caught out in open or hit from behind matters. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.03 11:00:00 - [52] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: When you say "skill", do you mean skill in the traditional FPS sense (headshots, strafing/counterstrafing, positioning, etc)? Or do you mean wiggling around and hipfiring while AA aims your gun? I'd assume the former, but I ask as there are some who call the latter skill, and those some have historically favored extending TTK . The way I see it, the weaker our weapons and deeper our HP reserves, the less getting caught out in open or hit from behind matters. More room for error =/= more room for skill. One would hope wiggle strafing isn't considered skill, considering you could teach a chimp to do it. in fact if wiggling stayed as is I want ttk to become shorter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 774	Posted - 2015.06.03 20:22:00 - [53] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles. I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill If TTK is too long, it devalues situational awareness and ambush/flanking tactics. Which is not to say that TTK is too short or long as is today, just be careful with that opinion.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.03 21:16:00 - [54] - Quote Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.03 23:19:00 - [55] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. Hate to say it bro, your baby's disproportionately balanced at this time WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.03 23:41:00 - [56] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles. I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill If TTK is too long, it devalues situational awareness and ambush/flanking tactics. Which is not to say that TTK is too short or long as is today, just be careful with that opinion. Agreed. If its too long, it ends up being rifle wielding sentinels again because HP is the most significant variable. So long as that is kept in mind, a slight increase in TTK shouldn't be a problem. Fingers crossed. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.04 00:44:00 - [57] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. Hate to say it bro, your baby's disproportionately balanced at this time Not really sure I could justify using it though with a 50% hit to standard DPS. "Crush all who complain!" `- Arkena Wyrnspire`
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.06 11:54:00 - [58] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Gotta say it all looks good and well thought out. Not looking good for the Tactical ScR though....... sigh. Hate to say it bro, your baby's disproportionately balanced at this time Not really sure I could justify using it though with a 50% hit to standard DPS. 1200 DPS vs shields at max skills with 3 mods is about twice what any other rifle can achieve. 50% DPS loss is absolutely justified. No other weapon comes close to achieving those numbers versus their target tank. Also when the SCR has more armor DPS than the CR AFTER the 20% damage penalty then the weapon absolutely needs to get hit. Hard. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H No Context 630	Posted - 2015.06.06 13:00:00 - [59] - Quote Never seen this much detail in rifle stats recently, it's awesome to read. What I find very strange though is how come the min out range the amarr? I know you said you didn't balance this by race but it still bothers me a bit Click me
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.06 14:32:00 - [60] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: Never seen this much detail in rifle stats recently, it's awesome to read. What I find very strange though is how come the min out range the amarr? I know you said you didn't balance this by race but it still bothers me a bit Because it makees as much sense as the reverse. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.06 15:13:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Never seen this much detail in rifle stats recently, it's awesome to read. What I find very strange though is how come the min out range the amarr? I know you said you didn't balance this by race but it still bothers me a bit Because it makees as much sense as the reverse. i wish we could figure out weapon accuracy. the recoil and dispersion on some weapons doesn't make much sense
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:48:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin - just caught up on this thread, thanks for the relink. Thoughts I generally like the idea of DPS / Range and tightening up the far left and right limits a bit. This highlights damage profiles...a positive from my perspective. Basically, little longer range for GAL / little shorter range for CAL and tweak some variables. Your thoughts on spool time, dispersion, and recoil? Those are the most direct obstacles to the actual real application of a weapon in game. As we've discussed, theoretical performance doesn't always translate to game play. My .02 ISK... Recoil - higher raw damage per shot should equate to higher recoil. This can be used effectively in CQC to some degree but quickly punishes spray and pray. This also allows low DPS / long range weapons to better apply damage in their optimal. Dispersion - absolutely ridiculous that a weapon can have rounds (or beams) coming flying out at odd 20 degree angles for no apparent reason. If the stat is meant to be an indicator of hip fire accuracy I guess i can kinda buy that but it's still very wonky. Why not let sensible application of recoil be a primary driver for this and dispersion simply drives the size of the hIp fire reticule? Spool Time - I personally can't stand it. Why not have a parallel to the Amarr heat mechanic and simply call it "capacitor" or "charge". You have to manage it similar to how you manage heat but perhaps you don't get feedback damage in exchange for slightly longer downtime if you totally deplete the capacitor? Some of this is based on my own personal experiences...There is no scenario i can come up with where having this type of drawback on general purpose infantry battle rifles / SMGs would be acceptable. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 07:44:00 - [63] - Quote Amarr overheat: Makes amarr suboptimal in this proposal. I would suggest removing the ammo counter and making reload tied to the overheat. You explode the focus crystal and need to insert a new one. Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 13:22:00 - [64] - Quote Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Home at Last <3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 15:34:00 - [65] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:17:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:49:00 - [67] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods. It's what we call "A start point" The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part. I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!! The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve. That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:15:00 - [68] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods. It's what we call "A start point" The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part. I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!! The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve. That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter. its not that i want your numbers as final. its that i dont want the devs being lazy and using your numbers as final lol. they have a tendency for copy and paste and then "rebalancing" 6 months later after collecting "sufficient data" im not sure we even need a curve actually. if the suits actually were tailored to run the weapons theyre meant to run, then we wouldnt have the issues we have. if anything id rather see suit builds with corresponding suit bonuses that arent blanket bonuses but that actually serve a purpose. the goal is that each suit serves a purpose. armor plate defense or armor rep defense? the suit should make it obvious and viable to one specifically along with a weapon. AR or ScR? the bonus would tell you which weapon the suit was designed for along with suit stats to make it possible. AR range too short? then make the gal assault have a higher base sprint speed, some native profile dampening to get under suit passive scans, and a damage bonus to ARs for wrecking faces once you arrive at your target. give it an armor rep bonus thats functional and capable of actually keeping the player alive just as good as if he where wearing plates. now youve got a gal assault that does his job and makes his AR do work that no one else can. this is the kind of design we need man. for every suit a focused purpose. from the weapons to the modules. from the top, down man. its like making a puzzle... you print the pic on the puzzle first and then you cut it into pieces. the bullshit we've beeen doing is like making the puzzle backwards, cutting up peices and then trying to paint the picture onto each piece and hoping it looks right after we're done. im amazed no one else is tired of it man.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:25:00 - [69] - Quote and let me give credit where it's due. you do great work man. youve done tons for the community and i hope you continue despite the resistance. if you get the time, think about what I wrote. its a whole lot easier to balance suits and weapons when you know what the overall design is going to look like.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:51:00 - [70] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: im amazed no one else is tired of it man. Everyone's tired of it. Rattati's tired of it. that's why he's setting curves and baselines on things like HP/speed. That way, when something needs tweaking, we know where it is, and can figure out the value of the stats people rely on. For example: My rifle curve ties hand in hand with the anti-infantry heavy weapon variants (and AV parity, as well as AI heavy parity) but they all tie in together. Go read the bastion. there's a copy of that one linked there. I don't ever make proposals in a vacuum. My rifle curve, for instance, was written with the idea that the suits of each race should have benefits that make the weapons used on matching racial suits be amazing. But functional on a cross-platform. Especially since Rattati has shown interest in touching cal/gal suit bonusing. I also had commandos in mind when I wrote them. I also had relationships with my proposed Heavy weapons along similar lines, though I refined the rifles and curve concept AFTER, so the heavy weapons are rough drafts. Hilariously Rattati's charge-burst-fire thing he was playing with is exactly what I was proposing for a Light Amarr AV weapon. Does it need work? Absolutely, but the idea is designed so that there's a functioning baseline, so the ENTIRE baseline can be shifted with predictable results if something comes up unbalanced. I'm as sick of the magic 8 ball crap too. I'd rather there be a trackable process for balancing. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:42:00 - [71] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:59:00 - [72] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 00:52:00 - [73] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. Why not use something simpler like RoF and damage per shot instead of a clunky mechanic like charge time? Spool time can be just as much of a hinderance to longer range support by fire as it is to CQC. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 03:08:00 - [74] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. Why not use something simpler like RoF and damage per shot instead of a clunky mechanic like charge time? Spool time can be just as much of a hinderance to longer range support by fire as it is to CQC. because I run on the philosophy the less actual mechanical alterations there are the more likely it is to be adopted. a method is actually the point today for me. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.


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