DUST Search - Rifle normalization.

Breakin Stuff wrote:

DeathwindRising wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

Looks **** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez...

Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor.

Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but ****** graph and this community goes wild with praise...

Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism!

Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Roll

Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket.

without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m.

if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits.

none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps.

you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods.

It's what we call "A start point"

The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part.

I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!!

The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve.

That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter.

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DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.06 15:13:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Never seen this much detail in rifle stats recently, it's awesome to read. What I find very strange though is how come the min out range the amarr? I know you said you didn't balance this by race but it still bothers me a bit Because it makees as much sense as the reverse. i wish we could figure out weapon accuracy. the recoil and dispersion on some weapons doesn't make much sense
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:48:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin - just caught up on this thread, thanks for the relink. Thoughts I generally like the idea of DPS / Range and tightening up the far left and right limits a bit. This highlights damage profiles...a positive from my perspective. Basically, little longer range for GAL / little shorter range for CAL and tweak some variables. Your thoughts on spool time, dispersion, and recoil? Those are the most direct obstacles to the actual real application of a weapon in game. As we've discussed, theoretical performance doesn't always translate to game play. My .02 ISK... Recoil - higher raw damage per shot should equate to higher recoil. This can be used effectively in CQC to some degree but quickly punishes spray and pray. This also allows low DPS / long range weapons to better apply damage in their optimal. Dispersion - absolutely ridiculous that a weapon can have rounds (or beams) coming flying out at odd 20 degree angles for no apparent reason. If the stat is meant to be an indicator of hip fire accuracy I guess i can kinda buy that but it's still very wonky. Why not let sensible application of recoil be a primary driver for this and dispersion simply drives the size of the hIp fire reticule? Spool Time - I personally can't stand it. Why not have a parallel to the Amarr heat mechanic and simply call it "capacitor" or "charge". You have to manage it similar to how you manage heat but perhaps you don't get feedback damage in exchange for slightly longer downtime if you totally deplete the capacitor? Some of this is based on my own personal experiences...There is no scenario i can come up with where having this type of drawback on general purpose infantry battle rifles / SMGs would be acceptable. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 07:44:00 - [63] - Quote Amarr overheat: Makes amarr suboptimal in this proposal. I would suggest removing the ammo counter and making reload tied to the overheat. You explode the focus crystal and need to insert a new one. Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 13:22:00 - [64] - Quote Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Home at Last <3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 15:34:00 - [65] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:17:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 19:49:00 - [67] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods. It's what we call "A start point" The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part. I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!! The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve. That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:15:00 - [68] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Looks ** and stupidly favored towards the shorter ranged bullethoses. 1% DPS per 1m of range? That's batshit insane. Maybe .25% per 1m would be reasonable, but a weapon doing 25% more DPS with only a 25m penalty? Jeez... Not to mention that it throws Rifle vs Everything Else balance out the airlock, with the Everything Else heavily in favor. Goddamn, someone makes a pretty but **** graph and this community goes wild with praise... Thank you for your constructive and useful criticism! Tales will be told and songs will be sung of how useful your input has been to this conversation! Please tell me more what a genius I am while I get another bucket. without insults... he has a point. your dps vs range cant be 1% for 1m. if everyone was using the same suit then sure, you could balance that way, but weve got suits that with less eHP than others that also cant run damage mods freely like other suits. none of your proposal is balanced considering the different suits and racial stats or slot layouts. 20m difference is not a realistic representation between a cqc weapon and a long range weapon lol, and certainly not worth 200 dps. you can run gal assault with a dampener and never even show up on scan and be inside AR optimal range already. not my fault everyone only knows how to stack armor and damage mods. It's what we call "A start point" The details of the actual numbers? I leave that to the devs. It's the creation of a curve that everyone can understand clearly that is the important part. I'm amazed that people seem to think that a proposal includes the caveat: YOU MUST USE THESE NUMBERS AS FINAL!!! The guideline is more important. it provides a suggestion on how to look at the range/DPS curve. That was what people were agreeing with, not my arbitrary take on %/meter. its not that i want your numbers as final. its that i dont want the devs being lazy and using your numbers as final lol. they have a tendency for copy and paste and then "rebalancing" 6 months later after collecting "sufficient data" im not sure we even need a curve actually. if the suits actually were tailored to run the weapons theyre meant to run, then we wouldnt have the issues we have. if anything id rather see suit builds with corresponding suit bonuses that arent blanket bonuses but that actually serve a purpose. the goal is that each suit serves a purpose. armor plate defense or armor rep defense? the suit should make it obvious and viable to one specifically along with a weapon. AR or ScR? the bonus would tell you which weapon the suit was designed for along with suit stats to make it possible. AR range too short? then make the gal assault have a higher base sprint speed, some native profile dampening to get under suit passive scans, and a damage bonus to ARs for wrecking faces once you arrive at your target. give it an armor rep bonus thats functional and capable of actually keeping the player alive just as good as if he where wearing plates. now youve got a gal assault that does his job and makes his AR do work that no one else can. this is the kind of design we need man. for every suit a focused purpose. from the weapons to the modules. from the top, down man. its like making a puzzle... you print the pic on the puzzle first and then you cut it into pieces. the bullshit we've beeen doing is like making the puzzle backwards, cutting up peices and then trying to paint the picture onto each piece and hoping it looks right after we're done. im amazed no one else is tired of it man.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:25:00 - [69] - Quote and let me give credit where it's due. you do great work man. youve done tons for the community and i hope you continue despite the resistance. if you get the time, think about what I wrote. its a whole lot easier to balance suits and weapons when you know what the overall design is going to look like.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 20:51:00 - [70] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: im amazed no one else is tired of it man. Everyone's tired of it. Rattati's tired of it. that's why he's setting curves and baselines on things like HP/speed. That way, when something needs tweaking, we know where it is, and can figure out the value of the stats people rely on. For example: My rifle curve ties hand in hand with the anti-infantry heavy weapon variants (and AV parity, as well as AI heavy parity) but they all tie in together. Go read the bastion. there's a copy of that one linked there. I don't ever make proposals in a vacuum. My rifle curve, for instance, was written with the idea that the suits of each race should have benefits that make the weapons used on matching racial suits be amazing. But functional on a cross-platform. Especially since Rattati has shown interest in touching cal/gal suit bonusing. I also had commandos in mind when I wrote them. I also had relationships with my proposed Heavy weapons along similar lines, though I refined the rifles and curve concept AFTER, so the heavy weapons are rough drafts. Hilariously Rattati's charge-burst-fire thing he was playing with is exactly what I was proposing for a Light Amarr AV weapon. Does it need work? Absolutely, but the idea is designed so that there's a functioning baseline, so the ENTIRE baseline can be shifted with predictable results if something comes up unbalanced. I'm as sick of the magic 8 ball crap too. I'd rather there be a trackable process for balancing. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:42:00 - [71] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.04 21:59:00 - [72] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 00:52:00 - [73] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. Why not use something simpler like RoF and damage per shot instead of a clunky mechanic like charge time? Spool time can be just as much of a hinderance to longer range support by fire as it is to CQC. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 03:08:00 - [74] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Amarr overheat: Charge time: should probably represent bringing additional stabilization into play. The caldari should have a lower recoil factor than other races to represent a racial focus on long range accuracy. Caldari aren't obsessed with a fast kill. They favor tge efficient kill. I'm with you on most this. Can you clarify the charge time representing "additional stabilization"? Not sure i'm following. Means the trade off for the charge should be more stability as the rifle has counterforce integrated for recoil suppression. Basically it takes longer to put rounds down?your compensation is better accuracy. Lower DPS doesn't matter as much when more of your shots hit on average. Why not use something simpler like RoF and damage per shot instead of a clunky mechanic like charge time? Spool time can be just as much of a hinderance to longer range support by fire as it is to CQC. because I run on the philosophy the less actual mechanical alterations there are the more likely it is to be adopted. a method is actually the point today for me. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.


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