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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 10:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
So. I am working on a project for rifle normalization and creation of an actual DPS curve that is consistent at all ranges.
So far my work has resulted not in the homogenization of weaponry, but variance in overall performance.
Doing the assault rifles first, designating them as the short range, high DPS rifles.
The results are very interesting.
Amarr weapons are used as my baseline for pure midrange and 0/0 modifiers to range and DPS.
So far, the variants are as follows (profiles not applied):
Assault: 50m optimal, 410 DPS
Burst: 60m optimal, 400 DPS
Breach: 70m optimal, 390 DPS
Tac: 80m Optimal, 380 DPS
Racial profiles give the following modifiers to each variant:
Caldari: +10m/-10 DPS
Minmatar: +5m/-5% DPS
Amarr: 0m/0 DPS
Gallente: -10m/+10 DPS
So the assault rifles fall roughly:
Caldari: 60m, 405.9 Armor, 332.1 Shields
Minmatar: 55m, 447.925 armor, 331.075 Shields
Amarr: 50m, 328 armor, 492 shields
Gallente: 40m, 405 armor, 496.1 Shields
This means that the plasma rifle and asscram perform noticably more poorly versus armor, and the rail and ACR perform poorly vs. Shields.
The gallente plasma rifle loses 20m of optimal to the caldari in exchange for noticably higher damage in close.
There seems to be a noticable lack of 700+ shield DPS.
Another consideration is that TTK goes down, and it becomes easier to justify different bonusing to suits like sentinels, potentially trading resistance bonusing for better utility or weapon application, as well as not having weapons which, by themselves, insta-smear scouts.
Another consideration is that laser profile weapons do not need to be rending armor casually. CR should have a hard time vs. Caldari. Tac weapons with some of the best ranges shouldn't out-DPS weapons that have to be in knife range for effectiveness.
Tell me how much you hate it!
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Francois Sanchez
Prima Gallicus
474
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Posted - 2015.05.30 10:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles.
I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill |
Vitharr Foebane
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.05.30 10:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
not to critique too much, but laser tech is supposed to out range projectile tech >.<
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd rather rattati tweak the rifles from baseline via assault and commando bonusing
Example: Caldari.
The need for caldari to completely sacrifice damage for tank or vice versa, while having a lower dps weapon means that a calassault can get a direct bonus to synergy of the rail rifle while making it a doable, but lesser option on the galassault
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
TTK stays the same overall
I'd be fine with that
Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 11:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that
This already drops ttk.
Because :sentinels: I'm not dropping it further.
The last time rifles got jacked up without eyeballing fatties, PC became sentinel 514.
I used the duvolle as the baseline because it is the rifle struggling the most. I actually built tge rifle ratios against the current duvolle AR for a reason.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:not to critique too much, but laser tech is supposed to out range projectile tech >.<
Would you really like me to increase the range relative to the other rifles, knowing full well that each addition of 1m results in a loss of 1.2% efficacy versus armor.
I have, by intention, not taken steps to make scramblers more efficient versus amarr and gallente dropsuits.
Because doing so will result in the current disproportionate damage output versus shields.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
TTK stays the same overall I'd be fine with that This already drops ttk. Because :sentinels: I'm not dropping it further. The last time rifles got jacked up without eyeballing fatties, PC became sentinel 514. I used the duvolle as the baseline because it is the rifle struggling the most. I actually built tge rifle ratios against the current duvolle AR for a reason.
Oooooh, yeah. Completely forgot about sentinels.
That'd definitely be a problem
Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
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TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.05.30 13:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Francois Sanchez wrote:Oh finally a truly balanced proposition for rifles.
I like the fact that TTK is increased, it leaves more space for skill
Agreed, I'm tired of seeing threads point out flaws in one weapon, you can't balance looking at just one.
This is refreshing, and reads like Breakin Stuff actually wants to be Fixin Stuff 
The whole childsplay.. of b,b,b,b,but his gun is better than mmmiiinnnneeeee QQ
Is really old, like over 2 years old if you haven't noticed the standard of Buff/Nerf QQ we see here
So, enough with the derail, get back to work !!
Te Sbundo'd
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 14:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
This also fits in with the AV/V proposal I've been tooling around with.
But that one will also need to come with a sharp drop in cost to vehicle drivers. Because they are balanced on paper there. But they're still gonna get instagibbed by mass fire.
Doesn't work at 1.5 mil a pop though
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 15:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall
All this would do is ruin racial diversity.
!--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust on both current Gen consoles--!
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 15:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fatties skew the curve hard enough I'm going to run the numbers at 420 base DPS to see where the numbers land.
ALL HAIL THE LARDBUTTS!
And bow, for I am their king.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.05.30 17:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations.
Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 17:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Rattati already stated that Amarrian weapons get extra DPS to compensate for their heat buildup. Add that into your calculations.
that extra DPS torches shield suits and is the primary reason no one wants to run them except a few maniacs and masochists.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 18:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Proposal Linked at the top of the OP
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 19:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall
oh, actually this statement is incorrect.
when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss.
if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405.
but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5
So you continuously lose a little every time you do it.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 19:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Inb4 Scrams questions:
Viziam DPS: 715 base, no skill, no mods
Caldari assault Ck.0 Shield HP (absolute maximum): 706.75
Caldari Sentinel Ck.0 Shield eHP (Absolute Maximum) vs. Viziam: 946.65 (1041.315 after 10% laser resist to shield)
Viziam max skill + 3 mods: 1164.7 DPS vs. shields
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
640
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Posted - 2015.05.30 19:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Personally, I'd swap the Min and Amarr stats. I feel that would follow racial style better.
We want cake and tea.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 20:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Melchiah ARANeAE wrote:Personally, I'd swap the Min and Amarr stats. I feel that would follow racial style better.
Amarr DPS vs. armor is abysmal. that's why I have them higher.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics
195
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Posted - 2015.05.30 20:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pffft...all this sounds too much like common sense, I don't like it.
Hejj...someone'd gotta say it. |
Cody Sietz
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
4
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Posted - 2015.05.30 21:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't understand what what them scribbles and numbers a mean but I support em *Patooie*
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Oceltot Mortalis
84
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Posted - 2015.05.30 21:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
what about fall off?
I like the idea of bringing them all to closer range, as the rule for rifles currently is:
Long range kill guaranteed for rail / laser, but CQB is not guaranteed to projectile / plasma.
Projectile and plasma need similar range to balance their non-linear dps.
Aspiring Forum Warrior.
Commando Advocate / Gallente Advocate / Legion Advocate / Avocado Advocate
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.30 21:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maybe I missed something but I have a quick question.
If you balance rifles and increase TTK for them, but leave side arms as is does this create any issues?
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.30 23:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Maybe I missed something but I have a quick question.
If you balance rifles and increase TTK for them, but leave side arms as is does this create any issues?
Doubt it. But more the point, I'm not doing more than one data block at a time
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 01:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it.
thats not noticable.
tbut you can buff it by 12% to 15% if it matters |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 01:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall All this would do is ruin racial diversity.
why should gallente use an assault rifle when a rail rifle benefits them more?
when this happens, a caldari using a rail rifle is out performed with his own weapon |
Jax Saurian
GunFall Mobilization
259
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Posted - 2015.05.31 03:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:nerf all your weapon damage again by 10%, then add a 10% damage bonus for pairing racial weapons with racial dropsuits.
Potential TTK stays the same overall oh, actually this statement is incorrect. when you nerf something, and then add another bonus elsewhere to the DPS the net result is a loss. if you take 450 and remove 10% you get 405. but if you add a 10% buff to the 405 you get 445.5 So you continuously lose a little every time you do it. thats not noticable. tbut you can buff it by 12% to 15% if it matters
A better way of doing it is either
A) decrease damage if you use a racially incorrect weapon on your suit (AR on a Minmatar gets a % damage decrease)
or B) increase damage if you use a racially correct weapon/suit combination (Mass Driver on a Minmatar gets a % damage increase)
but to be honest I don't like these options so I thought of a third
C) Racial specific bonuses for racially correct weapon/suit combination (Flaylock on a Minmatar gets a % increase to... IDK rate of fire or something)
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
9
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Posted - 2015.05.31 03:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Option C would be my preference.
But let's get off the semantics.
Does anyone see problems with proposed stats?
Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.05.31 03:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Option C would be my preference.
But let's get off the semantics.
Does anyone see problems with proposed stats?
Does anyone need clarification on how the stat blocks in the spreadsheets work?
excellent work |
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